I play this character exclusively because people say she sucks.

[Locuan]

I play as Marth too and is also one of my mains but I like Lucina a bit more as she does feel kinda lighter.

They both share the same weight, walk speed, run speed, etc.

Marth/Lucina Differences:
http://smashboards.com/threads/before-you-ask-the-differences-between-marth-and-lucina.376180/

Lucina's Frame Data:
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-0-4-lucinas-frame-data-wip.391916/
Marth's Frame Data:
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-0-4-marths-frame-data-wip.392027/

 

[Deleted member]

They both share the same weight, walk speed, run speed, etc.

Marth/Lucina Differences:
http://smashboards.com/threads/before-you-ask-the-differences-between-marth-and-lucina.376180/

Lucina's Frame Data:
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-0-4-lucinas-frame-data-wip.391916/
Marth's Frame Data:
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-0-4-marths-frame-data-wip.392027/

Thanks for that info, I didn't know that. I guess it was just all in my head~

 

[Mike_Tha_Hero]

Lucina feels faster than Marth, j/s.

 

[Locuan]

Lucina feels faster than Marth, j/s.

She's not. They share the same speed.

 

[ThePsychoWolf]

I just play Lucina because I like Lucina. *shrugs*

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

While I used to say somewhat similar-ish back in old times (or at least defend Lucy from the detractors calling her "bad" due being outclassed by Marth), I finally got Marth down and managed to see the potential in his tippers in this game. That actually had me not go back to play Lucy due her not being as "addicting" as Marth while also rewarding me better for similar style I put on Lucy's playstyle in my hands.

However, I honestly think this whole negativity or anything degatory around this fact should be ended with for good.

Lucina is outclassed by Marth - so what? She's still viable anyway, and is no way a badly performing character, far from that. I do wonder where this notion of "she sucks" based on that comes from anyway, as she's just modified Marth with selective advantages (or disadvantages) compared the Hero King. If she was a semi-clone or at least more distinguished from Marth, things could be even more different (with her being potentially worse, who knows).

I like both and see in their strengths, and I personally think it's about time both fans of the Falchion Wielders to get along instead of going around what's a horse beaten to death hard. Just accept this fact already, whether you're Lucy's or Marth's player.

For Lucy's fans, it might feel kind of bumming, but that's it, it's just her shortcoming due the worse design choices (and more bitter biasment to those opposing *sakuraivsclonehaters*) on clones in this game. It's not meant to be a "move to Marth you scrub/n00b", it's just a fact proven by biggest contributors to Marth in these boards.

Marth-players who berate on Lucy's players for picking her, you will only widen the unneeded toxic gap between both fans, something that won't be beneficial to growth of both communities in the long run. This is not needed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Havent seen any Marths beat on lucy players.

Luci fans do that to themselves. I guess they are masochist.

Also I would argue neither are truly viable but thats something else. You also posted a false hood when you said she is performing well in tourney. She is not. The notion that she sucks has nothing to do with Marth and more to do with you know...hitboxes, frame data, lack of options, lack of kill confirms, etc.

Lucina being not good has nothing to do with Marth. If it makes Lucina fans feel better, Marth is also lacking.

*shrug

 

[eshu125]

You also posted a false hood when you said she is performing well in tourney. She is not.

I have yet to travel out of state (but I'm going to quite a few Q2 of this year) but I have a plethora of top 2 / 5 finishes in my region as a solo Lucina main. I agree that there is no consistent, global showing of lucina or marth performing well in tournaments but let's not go making any assumptions xD

 

[Emblem Lord]

There is no way I can say this without coming off as a complete asshole, but I will try. More then likely you are far stronger then your opponents and/or they don't play the chars that shut Marcina down. Who are your opponents? Who do they main? Are they strong? Do you have vids?

Tourney results don't mean alot if the quality of your opponents is low.

 

[LightLV]

Lucina is outclassed by Marth - so what? She's still viable anyway, and is no way a badly performing character, far from that. I do wonder where this notion of "she sucks" based on that comes from anyway, as she's just modified Marth with selective advantages (or disadvantages) compared the Hero King. If she was a semi-clone or at least more distinguished from Marth, things could be even more different (with her being potentially worse, who knows).

The problem with Lucina has nothing to do with her being outclassed by Marth, and more with the design decision of her deliberately being outclassed by marth is just...baffling. She could have been a Bowser Jr / Robin styled skin swap, and this issue wouldn't exist.

But as she is, she's about the clostest thing smash 4 has to a complete waste of a character slot. She doesn't try to be different and comes up short, she just tries to come up short and succeeds.

 

[eshu125]

There is no way I can say this without coming off as a complete *******, but I will try. More then likely you are far stronger then your opponents and/or they don't play the chars that shut Marcina down. Who are your opponents? Who do they main? Are they strong? Do you have vids?

Tourney results don't mean alot if the quality of your opponents is low.

It's only fair to be skeptical, so I don't mind at all. I mentioned that I haven't been out of state for that very reason - unfortunately I can't really draw a comparison of my region vs the world so my words sorta mean nothing until I compete with more players. Unfortunately most of my vods have been deleted from twitch and my state (colorado) is pretty lazy when it comes to youtube uploads.

Not really sure how to answer your question about who I face and what characters I beat. All I can really say is that I'm PR 5 and some of the notable good players in our region that I have consistently been beating play characters such as pikachu, yoshi, villager, fox, diddy kong, falcon, link, pit, etc. The players that are better than me main zss, lucario, and captain falcon. All 3 of them are long-time veterans, so while I do acknowledge that my character struggles in those matchups, they also have a ton more experience than me and are just overall better players.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

@ ~ Valkyrie ~ While there are some Marth players who will say to just drop Lucina and use Marth, that is only a few of us. I don't use Lucina at all, but a lot of us Marth mains do use her and vice versa. Lets also not forget that there are some Lucina players who will switch to Lucina when they play Marth just to try to make Lucina seem like she is better. I really wish we could all just get along too, but lets be serious here, the amount of biased Lucina players definitely outnumber the Marth mains who tell you guys to just drop her for Marth. Both are vocal minorities who just say stuff to troll and cause people to argue. When people start to just ignore the trolls who tell you guys to drop her and the Lucina players who will fight Marth just to make her look better and say a bunch of biased things about Lucina stop being so biased when they say Lucina is better stop doing what they are doing, people will start to realize that the arguments are just pointless. Use who you like to use the most, but lets not deny the facts about these two characters. It gets annoying hearing Lucina mains say things like "Because there's quite a bit of luck in tippers. Lucina is more reliable." and "'Cause then I can stand with her and say, "This is the Hero King?". This just indicates the passive aggression towards Marth mains a few Lucina mains have (though maybe the second one was just a joke, I doubt for some reason though).

Anyways, @ L LightLV I am sorry, but using a character just for being low tier is like the same as using a character just for being high tier. You should just use the character you like to play as, and if you are playing them just because they are good/bad then does that really mean you like the character you play? You might find yourself liking the way a character who is even better or worse than Lucina more. For all you know you might end up actually liking Diddy, Sheik, or Sonic instead of just using them to get you easier wins in tournaments. Same with low teirs, you may end up liking WFT, Metaknight, or Ganon instead of just using them because you want to be a low tier hero. I doubt these low tier heroes use low tiers just to use a low tier. Most likely they just use them because they actually enjoy playing the character and are willing to put in extra work to be able to do well with their favorite character despite the character having the odds stacked against them.

 

[warionumbah2]

@ JingleJangleJamil MK and maybe Ganon are not low tiers lml. Don't know how you came to that conclusion

 

[LightLV]

Anyways, @ L LightLV I am sorry, but using a character just for being low tier is like the same as using a character just for being high tier. You should just use the character you like to play as, and if you are playing them just because they are good/bad then does that really mean you like the character you play? You might find yourself liking the way a character who is even better or worse than Lucina more. For all you know you might end up actually liking Diddy, Sheik, or Sonic instead of just using them to get you easier wins in tournaments. Same with low teirs, you may end up liking WFT, Metaknight, or Ganon instead of just using them because you want to be a low tier hero. I doubt these low tier heroes use low tiers just to use a low tier. Most likely they just use them because they actually enjoy playing the character and are willing to put in extra work to be able to do well with their favorite character despite the character having the odds stacked against them.

When it comes to competitive play, I really don't see the issue with playing high-tiers simply because they're high-tier, because ultimately, you're playing to win. Especially in a tournament situation, if you can win easier with an overloaded character, why waste your time and blunt your chances? Respect doesn't win tournaments, wins win tournaments. If you love a character but can't win with them, then you just need to make a choice. I refuse to bash top players for tier-whoring for this reason -- that's the reason they're top players. It's a flaw of the game. Not the player.

BTW, there's a difference between playing a character because she's "low tier" and playing one "because people SAY she sucks". This was made pretty early on in S4's lifetime, when we were missing solid info like frame data, movement techniques and a more defined meta. At this point, I still don't necessarily think Lucina SUCKS. But I do think ultimately she isn't really worth investing time into. There's nothing she can do that Marth can't, so I see no reason to attempt to main her, as at some point in my growth, i would hit a potential wall, and mathematically be wasting my time. So since the creation of this topic, i've abandoned holding out hope that some defining trait of Lucina will emerge. The developer already admitted she's just a nerfed marth.

Currently, nobody says Ike is low-tier, but he's my favorite character on the roster, off appearance alone. Falco was universally said to be nerfed to nothingness, but I've been doing very well with him, and he's picking up momentum in the meta. I've been playing him despite that, and he's currently my main. That's more along the lines of what i was getting at. But this will NEVER happen to Lucina -- any player that would do good with her would technically be playing an artifically capped character, since a superior version of her moveset exists. She is a wasted character.


I hate for it to be that way, but that's just how it is. She's good for a nice looking team in doubles, i guess, and her sword knockback makes edgeguarding a bit easier with her. But that's where it ends. I would never knock someone for playing her since it really doesn't matter, but i'm not one to delude myself.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

When it comes to competitive play, I really don't see the issue with playing high-tiers simply because they're high-tier, because ultimately, you're playing to win. Especially in a tournament situation, if you can win easier with an overloaded character, why waste your time and blunt your chances? Respect doesn't win tournaments, wins win tournaments. If you love a character but can't win with them, then you just need to make a choice. I refuse to bash top players for tier-whoring for this reason -- that's the reason they're top players. It's a flaw of the game. Not the player.

I did not say it is bad to use a character for being high tier, I said it is like the same as using a character for being bad. I don't knock players for that anymore, but I used to. Honestly I should have said using a character just because they are bad is WORSE since it really just makes it look like you are someone who wants to win tournaments with them for attention. You even said that you like Ike the most, so unless you really want to win tournaments there is really no reason to use a character you enjoy less over the one you like most if the character is worse. Like I said, I doubt low tier heroes use a low tier just because they are low tier. This is not about ultimately playing to win, this is about ultimately playing to with a low tier character.

@ JingleJangleJamil MK and maybe Ganon are not low tiers lml. Don't know how you came to that conclusion

Well, I don't really know anything about MK, but I have heard lots of players say that he is pretty bad in this game. Also, please do not try to deny the fact that Ganon is low tier. It requires a lot more work to use Ganon than a majority of the cast to do well in this game at high level play.

 

[warionumbah2]

Well, I don't really know anything about MK,.

Lets end it here then.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Lets end it here then.

Well it's not like this was about MK anyways. This is about Lucina, sort of about Marth, and the OP using Lucina because people say she is bad. A lot of people say Marth and Lucina are bad, but they really are not bad in this game. IMO I would say Marth and Lucina are just barely above average in this game.

 

[warionumbah2]

Well it's not like this was about MK anyways.

Im aware of the topic, but you called MK a low tier so i asked how you came to that conclusion but you lack basic knowledge on MK in the first place(no surprise). LightV actually gave valid points as to why Lucina isn't that good., you just named put 3 characters with nothing else, you said Gdorf struggles at high level play but so does Marth no? Doesn't he have quiet alot of unfavorable MUs up there? Doesn't seem like above average, average sure.

 

[Karcist]

You think so? I personally kind of like the handicap.

You like it because it gives you an excuse to help you stomach losses better. Its easier to think to yourself that you lost a game/set because "your character is outclassed" than it is to admit that you got outplayed.

 

[Locuan]

Alright, I'm going to step in. I decided to let one thread slide since these keep coming up and sometimes people need to vent. As long as it's done in a respectful manner I didn't see an issue with it. Normally, these types of Marth vs. Lucina threads I tend to lock since they only lead to heated conversations that get us nowhere. However, I said it before, in the character competitive impressions thread, we should be focusing on improving characters individual meta-games with the tools we currently have.

Lucina and Marth both have weaknesses that from the data for both, it's visible. And the reality of the matter is that one of these characters has a better design and the data to back it up. It's quite literally in the code, the math is there. I even started the frame data for both characters and pinned the threads so you guys could check the differences yourselves if you wanted to.

Every character has a weakness, even Diddy, yet players are taking him to new heights and working around them. This is what we should be doing. Yet, every month or so a new thread regarding the differences between Marth and Lucina and the pointless debates that occur because of them pop up. Why do I call the debates pointless? Again, the data is there. The conclusions should be easy to deduce from that.

With this, I have come to the conclusion of locking the thread. I want to see more activity from you guys trying to foster discussion on Lucina. What can we do to improve her current standing? What are our weaknesses? How can we work around them in a tournament set, or on For Glory for that matter? How do our custom moves help certain match-ups? What are the traps we can create because of these? Things of that nature.

I also would love you guys to show more activity on the Arena Challenge Series. The idea was to challenge the other character boards while at the same time we would be able to get experience on match-ups and offer our input. If you registered, make sure to look at the registered list and challenge each other! That's how it works.

You like it because it gives you an excuse to help you stomach losses better. Its easier to think to yourself that you lost a game/set because "your character is outclassed" than it is to admit that you got outplayed.

As far as I know, @ L LightLV never said this. Don't assume things, they can lead to incorrect deductions and bad situations.