I mean you can't tell me the japanese aren't better in everyway

[Kazuya]

Some characters have a good approach, others do not. Show me a Meta-Knight who camps. As Pit, I'll camp because his arrows are just asking for me to camp. As Zelda, I'll throw out a lot of Din's Fire because it's just too good. As Toon Link, I'll camp because his projectiles are a frightening force to be reckoned with.

As Marth and Ike? Not so much.

True, some characters are better at attacking than others. But even so, MANY British players that I play use Meta Knight and they use his speed as more of a defensive Hit-N-Run style of play.

Often I'll use Marth/Pit against MK's because they've got a good speed that can match a MK's.

A lot of the time, it will be ME that will go into attack, then they will try ShieldGrab or Dodge/Hit then find themselves more space and wait till they repeat the process.

I know a lot of good Marth campers tooo, they'll wait for an opening, ShieldGrab and then string a few combo's here and there before running and hiding.

You may not camp yourself, but most of the players I've come against keep true to the 'A strong offense is a good defense' strategy.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Empty short hops are flashly but they do not mean you have skill.

 

[Crizthakidd]

they make themselves faster. glide tossing. auto cancel moves. QAC for pika, buffered dashes. they dont stay in one place too much and that diddy was freaking LOLOL

 

[Mr.Victory07]

This again? And your join date isnt even March 08

 

[Crizthakidd]

and btw. check this out.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xmCUuMGy5f0

have u seen usa use ice like that? they like playing faster. and they arnt afraid to use lucas, one of the better characters. but they make a lot of mistakes. and not ALL of them do this. and not all americans play slow. we have to grow as a community tho so generalizations form.

 

[Yuna]

Stuff

I'd like to see a Meta-Knight or a Marth (especially Marth) try to camp my Zelda or my Pit.

they make themselves faster. glide tossing. auto cancel moves. QAC for pika, buffered dashes. they dont stay in one place too much and that diddy was freaking LOLOL

As opposed to the rest of the world who do not QAC, buffer dashes or glide toss?

and btw. check this out.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xmCUuMGy5f0

have u seen usa use ice like that? they like playing faster. and they arnt afraid to use lucas, one of the better characters. but they make a lot of mistakes. and not ALL of them do this. and not all americans play slow. we have to grow as a community tho so generalizations form.

Wow, amazing icicle spamming at the start! Also, how is that anything special? Yes, I have seen American players use Ice Climbers way better than that. He doesn't even know how to end the chaingrab properly when at the edge.

Zentore wouldn't have dared to be half as reckless against Hylian's IC's, who would punish him much more severely for each grab he got in.

2 minutes into the video and I can honestly say, this is a glaring example of Japanese players camping. Yes, there are some empty shorthops in there to give the illusion of non-camping, but both players are basically camping and waiting for openings for various BS. I stopped watching after 2 minutes so maybe they magically stopped camping after that.

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

Superior brawl skillz <<<<<< 2 a-bombs.

 

[Roller]

Anther is better than the japanese pikachus I have seen...just saying...

 

[edddddie]

Much better example of the same player playing ICs, without messing up the CGs. I guess he just wasn't used to Lucas' weight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lijaDYADAA8

And I don't think it's fair to compare the US's best IC (Hylian) to some random Japan IC, or the US's best Pikachu (Anther) to some random Japan Pikachu. Particularly when Nyosuke seems to play a ton of different characters well.

While I disagree with the sentiment that they are incredibly better than the US, I think it's really unfair to call these matches "suckfests," etc. These guys would do well if they came to the US. They wouldn't be at the top, but that makes sense because they aren't at the top in Japan either. And as for the Diddy, I'd have to say he seems to play as well, if not better than any Diddy I've seen in the US, except maybe Paul Kim.

EDIT: I also have a feeling that many of the people posting and saying "Psh, I watched it once and was impressed, then I watched it again and saw TONS of mistakes, since they don't spotdodge I could totally own them by camping Falco or Pit" actually didn't notice those mistakes and rely on people like Yuna and choknater to point them out for them. Yes there were a lot of defensive holes, but at least admit that you wouldn't be able to beat them. Camping does not automatically beat aggressive players. I'd like to see a match between these Japanese players and some more defensive American players just to see how these specific Japanese adapt to the more defensive style.

 

[Yuna]

Much better example of the same player playing ICs, without messing up the CGs. I guess he just wasn't used to Lucas' weight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lijaDYADAA8

I've been forced to watch too many Nyosuke vs. Zentore vids lately just to evaluate their "skill". I'll look into it if it's really relevant (as in "Wow, they rock now!"). Also, not being used to Lucas' weight has nothing to do with it. He just kept chaingrabbing Lucas to the edge and then instead of going for the obvious Fair or a Smash, he tried to... grab him again... even though he was obviously out of reach... because he was pretty far off the stage by then.

And I don't think it's fair to compare the US's best IC (Hylian) to some random Japan IC [...] Particularly when Nyosuke seems to play a ton of different characters well.

Only, Crizthakidd specifically said: "have u seen usa use ice like that?"

While I disagree with the sentiment that they are incredibly better than the US, I think it's really unfair to call these matches "suckfests," etc. These guys would do well if they came to the US.

I do not believe I (nor anyone else) have ever called any of these videos "suckfests" (at least not in this thread). I have used that term on these boards, however. They would do well, sure. But that's not that discussion at hand. In fact, I've even said "while they do not suck".

They wouldn't be at the top, but that makes sense because they aren't at the top in Japan either. And as for the Diddy, I'd have to say he seems to play as well, if not better than any Diddy I've seen in the US, except maybe Paul Kim.

Again, inconsequential. This thread and at least one other thread both claim Japanese players are "ten times" better than American (and I assume Australian, non-Japanese Asian and European) players based on videos presented for our consideration.

Stuff.

Again, inconsequential to the discussion at hand. The topic of discussion is not whether they do not suck. It's whether they're ten times better than non-Japanese players. And I've provided sufficient evidence for why they aren't even "brilliant" players by any standards. They're pretty good and solid players... who leave gaping holes my Lightning Kick would demolish them through.

Also, what's with the continued notion that Japanese players do not camp or camp as badly as American ones? Did you see that ridiculous IC's vs. Lucas match where both players camp? Only the occasional empty shorthops and random moving around for posterity's sake saved it from being a complete campfest.

 

[edddddie]

I'm not responsible for the comments that other people make. While it was stupid for them to say "better in everyway" and "ten times faster than us" I think the opposing comments downplay the skill level of these players. I think their ability is something to be commended, even if they aren't SUPER AWESOME by American/European standards. But comments like these:

You say potato, I say suckfest

That make less experienced or less skilled players think that there is nothing to learn from these videos or that there is not any part of their game we should try to emulate or attempt. There are a lot of good things that could be learned from those videos but people are being overly critical because they feel the need to defend their playstyle because of the asinine initial posts being made, like THIS THREAD or the other thread in Tactical, or the thread on AllisBrawl. If people had just said "Hey, look, here are some decent Japanese players, what do you think? What could they improve on?" it would have been a much better discussion, but instead we get stuff like this thread.

 

[Yuna]

I'm not responsible for the comments that other people make. While it was stupid for them to say "better in everyway" and "ten times faster than us" I think the opposing comments downplay the skill level of these players. I think their ability is something to be commended, even if they aren't SUPER AWESOME by American/European standards. But comments like these:

Made in another thread. Also, that videos was kinda sucky in how many gaping holes they left that I would've easily destroyed them through. The video was full of suck. Now, I was a bit too harsh and it wasn't all suck, but it still had plenty of suck. It was a lot of suck in terms of mindgames. It looked flashy and a lot less sucky because of their grasp of the technical aspects of Brawl, but they still made tons of mistakes... some of them repeatedly.

Stuff.

I only ever say "They aren't that good. They're good, but not really anything super-impressive." and then I point the mistakes they made to prevent people from emulating them too much and thus making the same mistakes.

 

[thepinkpoo]

Lol Yuna, you give yourself too much credit.

 

[Yuna]

Lol Yuna, you give yourself too much credit.

Even a sub-par Zelda who knew how to jump out of shield would be able to Lightning Kick them. Or, heck, just let go of your shield and smash/jab/tilt them.

 

[thepinkpoo]

You really think they're such terrible players that they wouldn't adapt to that?

 

[Ted PJs]

from the beginning of competitive melee, **** have always had an overall more skilled smash scene, where in contrast there are more low skill players in the us but our top pros are generally much better players. the ****/europeans have also always played a much more reckless, less campy game then us in general. honestly, big deal,. id put 20 bucks each on cort and pc to place top 3 in any *** brawl tourney tomorrow. if you dont agree youre misinformed

 

[Crizthakidd]

yuna i dont watch many vids on characters that arnt the top 15 so if u can link me some of the matches u consider really skilled and they play very effeiciently of american smashers id like to watch. do u play brawl and upload vids on youtube? id like to see how u play too. im all for improving by watching others vids.

 

[OFY]

To new people who play smash, empty shorthops give the allusion. Flashy=amazing to most new comers or just average people, for example

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D_Kt_ahdcqc

I use too many empty short hops in this video and it evidently leaves me open for ZSS to attack me. I learned from this and hopefully u guys do too =] bye.

 

[Yuna]

You really think they're such terrible players that they wouldn't adapt to that?

As opposed to as in their videos where they are already being punished for leaving themselves wide open? Only, they're not even punishing each other properly, going for punishes that aren't guaranteed when such punishers exist (or even the best punishers a lot of the time).

 

[GhettoSheep]

Lol Yuna, you give yourself too much credit.

QFT

You're right, there are plenty of things they can improve on, but I'm sure they would show you a thing or two as well if you played them.

However, I would like to see some of your vids, but you don't have any up and we have no idea how you play.

 

[thepinkpoo]

As opposed to as in their videos where they are already being punished for leaving themselves wide open? Only, they're not even punishing each other properly, going for punishes that aren't guaranteed when such punishers exist (or even the best punishers a lot of the time).

I'm saying that we've only seen videos of them playing each other
Two aggressive players, with little defense. If they played more defensive players, how do you know for sure how they'd fare?

 

[choknater]

So much ignorance.

Yes, they are good, they are good.

Overrated, yes, but they are good.

Not amazing, still have holes, imprefect, yes.

BUT THEY ARE GOOD.

These guys are the top level smashers in a whole country, I wouldn't jump to conclusions about ALL American smashers being superior in every way.

Sheesh, I know there's a lot of pride in this but... comparisons really shouldn't be made until Japanese players actually do play westerners.

 

[Digimonkey]

hey.. i see some falco chain grabbing

 

[Edds]

why do people rage over these videos so much?

 

[Yuna]

Yes, they are good, they are good.

Overrated, yes, but they are good.

Which is what I've been saying all along.

Not amazing, still have holes, imprefect, yes.

BUT THEY ARE GOOD.

I've also said this.

These guys are the top level smashers in a whole country, I wouldn't jump to conclusions about ALL American smashers being superior in every way.

As opposed to the people who parade their vids around saying "These players are ten times better than any American player!", no one on "my" side has claimed every single American player is better than them (well... no one credible though. We have seen a few say "I think they'd get crushed against as good camper."). Heck, I'm not even American.

Sheesh, I know there's a lot of pride in this but... comparisons really shouldn't be made until Japanese players actually do play westerners.

I agree. But I can still criticize videos brought before me as "proof of excellence" when they're not really that excellent.

 

[BentoBox]

You can't blame people of being somewhat deaf when you yourself do not bring concrete proof to back you up. Being a good player is subjective, yet you can't keep yourself from dropping bombs everytime. Where are your vids Yuna?

I too, know a few dozen players who are better than these fellows.

See what I did there?

 

[Yuna]

You can't blame people of being somewhat deaf when you yourself do not bring concrete proof to back you up. Being a good player is subjective, yet you can't keep yourself from dropping bombs everytime. Where are your vids Yuna?

I too, know a few dozen players who are better than these fellows.

See what I did there?

So my arguments fail because I cannot back up that I could beat these people? All of my "evidence" for why they're not really that good fails automatically because there's no evidence of me being better?

Ignore me saying "I could most probably beat them if they played this way against me" (yes, I said "this way" on several occasions). Then you're left with "They're not really that good because they do this and that and these and those things". Now refute those arguments.

 

[BentoBox]

You make it sound like nit-picking on people's flaws is any hard. Instead of keeping people in the dark and attempt to enlighten them by pushing forward your boundless knowledge, stop beating around the bush and give them concrete examples already. Real-time play and speculation on what could've been are two way different things.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

USA match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J83Hh1YqPs&feature=related

US players are fast too...

 

[Yuna]

You make it sound like nit-picking on people's flaws is any hard. Instead of keeping people in the dark and attempt to enlighten them by pushing forward your boundless knowledge, stop beating around the bush and give them concrete examples already. Real-time play and speculation on what could've been are two way different things.

Concrete examples? As opposed to pointing out what they did wrong? Like what? Pinpoint where in the vids they did wrong? Is it so hard for you to see for yourself?

 

[BentoBox]

It seems talking is all you can do. Because aside from highlighting their recklessness its been all about you/your friends who would destroy them and them being full of suck, throughout this whole thread. Get off your high horse.

 

[Randofu]

Superior brawl skillz <<<<<< 2 a-bombs.

This makes me wish that I had the power to ban people.

Seriously, this was uncalled for.

 

[PCHU]

You know....
We may have different strategies, but how can you tell who is better?
They're just Japanese, they aren't superior to normal people in any way, shape, or form.
Last I checked we are all human.
Well, maybe not ALL of us....

Anyway, what I mean is that they can't really be superior JUST because they shorthop 2 times per second.
They might be faster, but we have reaction time just as they do.
We have the element of surprise just as they do.
We ARE on the same game, right?
I don't see how them acting like crackheads is superior to our acting like turtles...
on crack.

 

[edddddie]

Yuna, your comments are partially responsible for stuff like this:

"lol, guess japan banned the shield button along with snake..."

on THIS video. That is one of the most campy and defensive matches I 've seen but you've misled people to believe that all Japanese matches are aggressive and suck at defense and everything else thanks in part to your vague criticisms.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, your comments are partially responsible for stuff like this:

"lol, guess japan banned the shield button along with snake..."

on THIS video. That is one of the most campy and defensive matches I 've seen but you've misled people to believe that all Japanese matches are aggressive and suck at defense and everything else thanks in part to your vague criticisms.

I'm sorry, what part of "This match with Nyosuke and Zentore is a glaring example of Japanese players camping... a lot" was too hard for you to grasp?

I specifically pointed out they were camping. That match was far more campy than that Yonezumi vs. Gano match, so I didn't say anything about camping in that one.

My comments are not responsible for idiots being idiots. They'd be idiots with or without me. I've personally managed to "cure" several idiots through the years, though.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yuna, your comments are partially responsible for stuff like this:

"lol, guess japan banned the shield button along with snake..."

on THIS video. That is one of the most campy and defensive matches I 've seen but you've misled people to believe that all Japanese matches are aggressive and suck at defense and everything else thanks in part to your vague criticisms.

He never said that either.
He was commenting specifically on those matches posted.
Or the GENERIC play.
Not ALL play.

 

[Youko]

There's already at least one thread on Japan's playstyles in the Tactical Discussion forum.

Not to mention, I'm getting sick of all the reported posts that are coming from here.