I liked Bowser better when he was slow

[Quillion]

Now, don't get the wrong idea about this, but I just liked Bowser better when he was slow.

I loved playing as the slow, powerful monster that he was in previous games. Feeling balanced this way doesn't have anything to do with it; I just feel like he's much more unique and more "Bowser" this way, especially since this is how Bowser is consistently portrayed as in the Mario spinoffs.

The way he is now, he just doesn't feel uniquely "Bowser" anymore. I don't think it makes sense for him, especially since they kept Dedede and Ganondorf as Mighty Glaciers. And they STILL put effort into balancing the two remaining Mighty Glaciers, so it's not like those types of characters are completely unviable.

 

[BSL]

i don't know if i agree with you.

Dedede has the range to compensate for his slowness, and Ganondorf looks really bad again.
I'd still consider Bowser slow enough to be a "mighty glacier" even though he's not as slow as he used to be.

 

[Zigsta]

I felt this way too prior to actually playing the new game. I find that a lot of the Brawl Bowser strategy carries over to Smash 4, and Bowser's increased running speed just adds another layer to Bowser's gameplay.

So I def hear ya but encourage you to give this new Bowser a shot.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser was never really slow in Smash though.

Unless you mean attack speed slow, then yeah.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I can confirm he wasn't slow. He was basically a car!

 

[NavySage]

I'm happy to try out a glacier that can actually keep up with my brother's obnoxious marth.

 

[A2ZOMG]

In the actual Mario series, Bowser runs pretty **** fast when he wants to. So thematically, it's not inaccurate.

And his biggest problem (oh, just saw what I did there) has always been size and commitment.

In short, Bowser has always been a fat*** maniac in the history of Mario.

 

[ImaClubYou]

As a Bowser main in Melee, I understand your qualms.

Being slow was actually part of Bowser's playstyle while mixing in fast movement speed thanks to exploits.

 

[Cpt.]

I can confirm he wasn't slow. He was basically a car!

My friend's and I called his Dash the family minivan XD

 

[Warlock*G]

SSB4's Bowser = Melee's Ganondorf

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I am a Bowser player in Melee and Brawl. I liked his crushing power in Melee, I appreciate the increase of his attack speed in Brawl, but he seemed to lose a lot of the power he has in Melee. In Smash 3DS, he has been buffed back up and several of his moves (b-air and side smash) are greatly improved...I am happy to say that I will end up maining Bowser, with Duck Hunt Dog and Jigglypuff as reserves.

Is it me or has Bowser's forward air been nerfed? One thing I loved about that move in Melee is that it comes out quick for a Bowser move and has devastating knockback.

As a Bowser main in Melee, I understand your qualms.

Being slow was actually part of Bowser's playstyle while mixing in fast movement speed thanks to exploits.

I usually abused Fortress out of shield as a counter in Melee. Dash attack is also decent, and I use Bowser Bomb to edge grab if I am knocked high enough. Awesome to see another San Diego Bowser on the forums. I currently go to UCSD (it's my first quarter there this fall), and I will take part in Triton Gaming's Smash fest when I can (https://www.facebook.com/tritonesports)

 

[kunimitsu877]

from what ive seen bowser really doesn't look that much faster but it may feel different once i actually get the game i suppose

 

[Mr. Bones]

Now, don't get the wrong idea about this, but I just liked Bowser better when he was slow.

I loved playing as the slow, powerful monster that he was in previous games.

But Bowser's been shown to be faster than Mario in a lot of cases. Like the SM64 video that A2Z posted.

I like Bowser not only having a running animation, but also a fast dash. It looks absolutely frightening to see a big, FAST, powerful monster barreling towards you. Bowser is canonically more agile than he looks with his monster jumps and surprising speed. It just makes him that much more intimidating and formidable.

I also main him in Project M and I believe if they just gave him a faster dash and slightly better frame data like he has in Smash 4, he could definitely be more viable.

I am a Bowser player in Melee

Ouch.

Is it me or has Bowser's forward air been nerfed? One thing I loved about that move in Melee is that it comes out quick for a Bowser move and has devastating knockback.

Actually, I think his new forward air is pretty interesting. It lacks the raw power but it makes up for it in area coverage. It can even hit opponents that are under/behind him. Also you can use it as a wall of pain of sorts when leaping out to edgeguard your opponents because his recovery is just gravy in this game and nothing short of deceptive. You can go DEEP to finish an opponent's stock.

 

[Quillion]

But Bowser's been shown to be faster than Mario in a lot of cases. Like the SM64 video that A2Z posted.

I like Bowser not only having a running animation, but also a fast dash. It looks absolutely frightening to see a big, FAST, powerful monster barreling towards you. Bowser is canonically more agile than he looks with his monster jumps and surprising speed. It just makes him that much more intimidating and formidable.

I also main him in Project M and I believe if they just gave him a faster dash and slightly better frame data like he has in Smash 4, he could definitely be more viable.

But Project M made him viable by giving him tons of flinch resistance while still keeping him the slow powerful monster we know and love.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

But Project M made him viable by giving him tons of flinch resistance while still keeping him the slow powerful monster we know and love.

then they nerfed him because tradition says bowser isnt allowed to be good

 

[Quillion]

then they nerfed him because tradition says bowser isnt allowed to be good

Actually the tradition is that Mighty Glaciers in general aren't allowed to be good.

It's only with SSB4 that they take mechanical steps to close the gap between the fragile speedsters and glaciers.

 

[PolarPanda]

To be fair, Bowser is indeed shown to be very fast in the Mario franchise so it's a lot more accurate than a slow Bowser, but I understand your point.

 

[Mr. Bones]

But Project M made him viable by giving him tons of flinch resistance while still keeping him the slow powerful monster we know and love.

The armor doesn't make him viable. It's pretty gimmicky and almost useless in Top level play. In top level play, you have to be on your best game as a player to make anything happen with Bowser. Speed-as far as attacks and dash speed goes-still remains extremely important in Smash. To be honest, PMBR sucks at balancing the roster. For some characters, it's ALMOST LIKE THE PEOPLE THAT MAIN THEM DESIGNED THEM...*cough*...while others simply seem to take the back-seat.

I respect what your saying, but Bowser is often more fast in the Mario games than he is in Smash. I think you're underestimating the importance of speed a little bit. It's not the most important aspect of the game, but it's fairly necessary when you're playing a large character that would otherwise be camped to death.

 

[Drascin]

Personally, I like the new Bowser. It reminds me of the Bowser in Bowser's Inside Story, this big, brawny, wrestley, but surprisingly fast dude that just punched THROUGH enemy attacks and gave no ****s while laughing.

Had they given him a roary voice instead of just Godzillaesque sounds and not recycled the Giga Bowser FS I'd have been happy to call it the same guy in BIS. And since BIS is basically Bowser at his best...

 

[Mr. Bones]

Yeah. I don't understand why they didn't have the resources to give him BiS voice or at least clean up the existing BiS sound clips for him. That would have been great.

 

[S_B]

Yeah. I don't understand why they didn't have the resources to give him BiS voice or at least clean up the existing BiS sound clips for him. That would have been great.

Sadly, it's about royalties.

If they don't use an actual voice actor/actress to play a character, they don't need to pay them any royalties.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

The thing that dictates whether something feels like them or not is their design, and IMO Bowser's design follows very closely to his Mario universe design and that's all that matters to me.

 

[S_B]

Now, don't get the wrong idea about this, but I just liked Bowser better when he was slow.

I loved playing as the slow, powerful monster that he was in previous games. Feeling balanced this way doesn't have anything to do with it; I just feel like he's much more unique and more "Bowser" this way, especially since this is how Bowser is consistently portrayed as in the Mario spinoffs.

The way he is now, he just doesn't feel uniquely "Bowser" anymore. I don't think it makes sense for him, especially since they kept Dedede and Ganondorf as Mighty Glaciers. And they STILL put effort into balancing the two remaining Mighty Glaciers, so it's not like those types of characters are completely unviable.

Bowser was never powerful enough to compensate for how slow he was in previous SSB games, though.

And the thing is, he's STILL a pretty damn slow character: his landing lag is some of the worst, many of his moves still require VERY approximate timing or your enemy will have time to shield and you'll get retaliation.

He's actually strong enough to justify his relative sluggishness and unlike Ike and D3, he doesn't have either a quick approach, range or a real projectile. Bowser will likely still fall to the bottom of the tier list because most of the same tricks that worked against him in the past still work (camping and forcing him to approach).

Speedy characters can still make short work of him once again, it's just that Bowser actually has more than a snowball's chance in hell of winning now.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Bowser will likely still fall to the bottom of the tier list because most of the same tricks that worked against him in the past still work (camping and forcing him to approach)

Speedy characters can still make short work of him once again, it's just that Bowser actually has more than a snowball's chance in hell of winning now.

Whoa. I seriously doubt he'll fall to the bottom of the tier list. And his Fire Breath is a lot better now than it was before. Still not a real projectile, but it's damn-near close enough.

As far as his landing lag goes, it's all about choosing when to go air borne. I almost never jump unless I'm chasing an enemy off stage or I'm going for wave bounce Fire breath for spacing/baiting. Even if you get forced into the air, you can cover your landing with Fire Breath most of the time.

His jabs are super quick and have quite a bit of priority. His pivot grab has really odd range. Not complaining though. Also pivot F-tilt->into jab 1 is pretty safe for threatening space when you're dancing around your opponent. You can also auto-cancel Bair(and other Aerials) into an immediate Up-B. I often do this when my opponent is hanging off the ledge. I'll run off the ledge, jump back while Bairing and auto-cancel into Up-B. This covers the get-up(hit by bair), get-up attack(hit by bair), and ledge-roll(hit by Up-B moving to the left) options. The Bair can capture some characters' jumps but I haven't tested to see who is all affected. If they catch on and just try to stay at the edge longer, I'll just stage spike them with Bair. lol

Also you can Powershield Projectiles. Really easily when you just take the time to learn. And you really can act immediately out of the powershield and pressure campy players.

There are some hard MUs for Bowser for sure, but none feel remotely "impossible" yet. I guess we'll just see as the meta game develops.

As far as tiers go, it's still way too early to say. The game isn't even a month old.

But I could see him being mid-high at the very least.

 

[S_B]

As far as tiers go, it's still way too early to say. The game isn't even a month old.

But I could see him being mid-high at the very least.

We'll see what happens, but I'd guess that people haven't figured out Bowser's tricks yet and it'll be a whole different ball game once they do.

Also, no one has seriously perfected the projectile game yet, and that will no doubt make things even harder for Bowser.

I'd love to be wrong, but I still don't see him really rising above. But as you said, we'll wait and see.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Bowser is pretty straight forward. The few tricks he has have been figured out for the most part. That being said: knowing what your opponent is capable of is entirely different from being able to thwart it.

I'm willing to bet he won't be lower than mid tier. He actually has the tools and a good balance of speed and strength. I think a lot of people are getting discouraged by For Glory input lag. Bowser isn't broken like everyone (except me. >_>) thought he was at first. He's definitely viable though and capable of winning his harder MUs with patience and pokes.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Bowser is pretty straight forward. The few tricks he has have been figured out for the most part. That being said: knowing what your opponent is capable of is entirely different from being able to thwart it.

I'm willing to bet he won't be lower than mid tier. He actually has the tools and a good balance of speed and strength. I think a lot of people are getting discouraged by For Glory input lag. Bowser isn't broken like everyone (except me. >_>) thought he was at first. He's definitely viable though and capable of winning his harder MUs with patience and pokes.

Bowser is sure to be a better tier than he was in past installments.

Bowser's Back air is quick and reliable when killing opponents.

 

[S_B]

Bowser is pretty straight forward. The few tricks he has have been figured out for the most part. That being said: knowing what your opponent is capable of is entirely different from being able to thwart it.

I'm willing to bet he won't be lower than mid tier. He actually has the tools and a good balance of speed and strength. I think a lot of people are getting discouraged by For Glory input lag. Bowser isn't broken like everyone (except me. >_>) thought he was at first. He's definitely viable though and capable of winning his harder MUs with patience and pokes.

Rest assured, you're far from the only one who knew Bowser wasn't broken.

I'm just watching the projectile games develop on other characters and seeing the crazy number of things that combo into other things...

 

[Zigsta]

I said it before and I'll say it again: Anyone who interpreted the results from SDCC as "Bowser's broken" needs a serious reality check. That said, Smash 4 Bowser is by far the best iteration out of the three main games he's been in (excluding PM because I only played it a few times).

Yes, Bowser has a harder time against characters with projectiles. That's always been the case, and it always will be the case in EVERY Smash game unless Bowser magically gets a solid priority projectile. But he's got a variety of tools to deal with projectile spam. It's not as simple as just run up and shield because any halfway intelligent player will start grabbing you. So mix it up! Learn which projectiles can be jabbed against characters shooting you on the ground and which projectiles can be upsmashed against characters z-dropping from above (looking at you, Toon Link and Pac-Man!). You can also try counterpicking to a stage with more platforms to give yourself more options.

Rage is SOOOO huge in this game. It makes Bowser really freaking good if you know the MU well and are good at reads. If someone's throwing out a lot of projectiles, I really don't care honestly. Don't get flustered and eventually you'll get in.

 

[S_B]

I said it before and I'll say it again: Anyone who interpreted the results from SDCC as "Bowser's broken" needs a serious reality check. That said, Smash 4 Bowser is by far the best iteration out of the three main games he's been in (excluding PM because I only played it a few times).

Yes, Bowser has a harder time against characters with projectiles. That's always been the case, and it always will be the case in EVERY Smash game unless Bowser magically gets a solid priority projectile. But he's got a variety of tools to deal with projectile spam. It's not as simple as just run up and shield because any halfway intelligent player will start grabbing you. So mix it up! Learn which projectiles can be jabbed against characters shooting you on the ground and which projectiles can be upsmashed against characters z-dropping from above (looking at you, Toon Link and Pac-Man!). You can also try counterpicking to a stage with more platforms to give yourself more options.

Rage is SOOOO huge in this game. It makes Bowser really freaking good if you know the MU well and are good at reads. If someone's throwing out a lot of projectiles, I really don't care honestly. Don't get flustered and eventually you'll get in.

Yeah, this is the best Bowser of the three, by far, but I'm still waiting to see where things land.

I still don't expect he'll be very high on the tier list, but again, we'll see.

 

[Mr. Bones]

I'd say he's better here than he even is in PM. All of the armor in PM is pretty gimmicky and useless in top-level play. He honestly needs better frame data and at least a slightly faster dash.

That's what he has here, and it's just what he needed. The invincible appendages when attacking helps too. ;P

 

[S_B]

Whoa. I seriously doubt he'll fall to the bottom of the tier list. And his Fire Breath is a lot better now than it was before. Still not a real projectile, but it's damn-near close enough.

I have to argue this: it's nowhere NEAR a REAL projectile.

With a real projectile, Bowser could do things like attack an opponent who was trying to ledge guard him from range, put pressure on a camper or work the projectile quickly into a combo.

It can do none of these things. If anything, I would've loved it if Bowser had received the fire version of Greninija's water shuriken: quick tap for a small, fast fireball, hold and charge for a larger, more powerful fireball.

Also, if you miss with your firebreath opening, it's VERY punishable...

 

[Mr. Bones]

I say it's good enough for his current build. Just don't spam it recklessly; mix it up. His fire is so much better than in previous versions that I can't even complain. If he had the Fire version of Water Shuriken, it'd almost be unfair.

He still has character flaws but nothing that polarizes MUs against him.

Yet.

I feel like you underestimate him a lot. You're like the evil twin of everyone who thought he would be broken. Or maybe I'm just way too damn good at this game. >_> Or maybe I'm cocky. Or maybe you're right. I dunno. Maybe it's Maybelline.

 

[S_B]

I say it's good enough for his current build. Just don't spam it recklessly; mix it up. His fire is so much better than in previous versions that I can't even complain. If he had the Fire version of Water Shuriken, it'd almost be unfair.

He still has character flaws but nothing that polarizes MUs against him.

Yet.

I feel like you underestimate him a lot. You're like the evil twin of everyone who thought he would be broken. Or maybe I'm just way too damn good at this game. >_> Or maybe I'm cocky. Or maybe you're right. I dunno. Maybe it's Maybelline.

I'm not trying to be overly pessimistic, but the problem I see is that Bowser still has most of the same issues he always did. Couple that with the new landing lag (sometimes you just want to land without having to do a special and not be punished for it, you know?) and a smart opponent can typically predict what you're going to do because your options are limited.

Fire breath is extremely punishable and, if your opponent shields, they can escape with minimal damage.

Do you have some videos up somewhere where you dismantle opponents who usually give Bowser a hard time? (and I mean well played characters who aren't making obvious mistakes?)

I do very well with him in glory, usually wind up two-stocking anyone but the insanely good players. But when I'm 2-stocking, I can plainly see where my opponents made their mistakes. One of those mistakes is actually not waiting for Bowser to approach.

Bowser has no real way to put pressure on an enemy who is waiting for him, and the odds are that the enemy will have SOME kind of projectile they can use to camp Bowser (and if they're smart, they will).

So again, do you have some videos of a Bowser player beating people who clearly aren't making those obvious mistakes?

 

[Raiden mk-II]

That is what fighting games are all about in general: capitalizing on your opponent's mistakes. This is why on these boards, we discuss with great frequency "punishing" opponents when they whiff attacks or perform the wrong attack. If your opponents make very few mistakes, then you have to mindgame them. Make them make mistakes. Bowser is dramatically more agile in this game than in past Smashes, so you can do several feints and fakeouts to get a feel for how defensive or aggressive your opponents will play, then switch up your gameplan accordingly. Most of my high-level matches are complete battles of attrition where neither of us can get any strong hits in, just chip away at each other's health and wait for a window of opportunity to deal the killing blow.

I am not the best Bowser player around, but I've had my fair share of wins versus ZSS, Greninja, and Mega Man. I get destroyed by a Spamus Aran if I make too many mistakes against her, or if my approaches are ill-conceived. You have a projectile spammer? Punch the projectiles. If your opponent has a charged projectile attack, it will be your fault for letting him/her charge it up. I've been putting into practice shield-running. While I am still poor at it, I've found success being able to close in to my opponents and start punishing them. Abuse the infinite air-dodging if you need to. It's there for a reason.

A conservative Bowser will always be at a disadvantage against top-skilled players, no matter who they choose. I usually have no problems against Shulk, every other FE character except Robin, Captain Falcon, Fox, or Falco. However, if a very skilled player controls them, I have a hard time.

I will put up a few videos of some of my better matches, one against a spam-happy Mega Man and another where I mindgamed an overly defensive and projectile-happy Greninja player to a come-from-behind victory, when I have the opportunity.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Fire breath is extremely punishable and, if your opponent shields, they can escape with minimal damage.

Use it intelligently. There are plenty of situations to ensure that it hits, shield or otherwise. It's safe on hit and shield. Cover your landings, catch them trying to recover, punish their rolls; learn to b-reversal and wavebounce it. Wavebounce Fire is still really good.

Do you have some videos up somewhere where you dismantle opponents who usually give Bowser a hard time? (and I mean well played characters who aren't making obvious mistakes?)

I'll prepare a compilation of my own videos while looking for tournament videos of Bowsers that are remotely as good as me...>_> (/cockybastard)

Jokes aside, I never said that you can dismantle characters that give you a hard time. Those hard MUs can definitely be won though; it's like Raiden said, Bowser has plenty of feint/fake-out options this time around. (One of them is wavebounce Fire...) His jab 1 is a super safe poke and shielding is really good in this game and requires minimal commitment. You can perfect-shield/shield run to rush down a projectile spammer and drop your shield/prepare an attack to avoid being grabbed. Other than that, it's just conditioning your opponent and playing a strong mental and punish game.

I do very well with him in glory, usually wind up two-stocking anyone but the insanely good players. But when I'm 2-stocking, I can plainly see where my opponents made their mistakes. One of those mistakes is actually not waiting for Bowser to approach.

>For Glory..
>Goes into Sudden death even if you have a 200% lead but same stocks

That being said; patience is always key. Even faster characters with projectiles have more move commitment now. Wait for your opening and punish if you have to. You can still force openings on good players, you just have to scare/condition them.

In any tournament situation, I won't approach their "bubble" if I have even a 20% lead. <That is not difficult at all with Bowser. I'll stay back and pivot/poke their bubble and threaten space. If they screw up: I'll go in. If I see a pattern: I'll go in.

If I get bored: I'll go in. Just as a mix-up. XD

If they try to camp you and don't approach, you win when the time goes out. Yay. If you're playing For Glory, just get the stock lead and do this.

It's all about learning an opponent's effective range.

Did you ever watch Tom and Jerry as a kid?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vkKIxzKjZA&feature=player_detailpage#t=24

Tom=What Bowser should be doing
Dog=Every other player/character's tears

Bowser has no real way to put pressure on an enemy who is waiting for him, and the odds are that the enemy will have SOME kind of projectile they can use to camp Bowser (and if they're smart, they will).

Not true. Even rushing them down applies some pressure. It forces them to react or get hit. Charge at them and stop just before their effective range and see how they react. Do an empty jump towards them and double jump away. Do they roll? Dodge? Shield? Attack where they thought you would be? Learn their habits and minimize yours.

Threaten space with Pivot Ftilt/Pivot grab or Jab 1. Crawl backwards to dodge some aerial approaches and threaten d-tilt or down-b.

So again, do you have some videos of a Bowser player beating people who clearly aren't making those obvious mistakes?

"I'll prepare a compilation of my own videos while looking for tournament videos of Bowsers that are remotely as good as me...>_> (/cockybastard)"

 

[Anragon]

Use it intelligently. There are plenty of situations to ensure that it hits, shield or otherwise. It's safe on hit and shield. Cover your landings, catch them trying to recover, punish their rolls; learn to b-reversal and wavebounce it. Wavebounce Fire is still really good.



I'll prepare a compilation of my own videos while looking for tournament videos of Bowsers that are remotely as good as me...>_> (/cocky*******)

Jokes aside, I never said that you can dismantle characters that give you a hard time. Those hard MUs can definitely be won though; it's like Raiden said, Bowser has plenty of feint/fake-out options this time around. (One of them is wavebounce Fire...) His jab 1 is a super safe poke and shielding is really good in this game and requires minimal commitment. You can perfect-shield/shield run to rush down a projectile spammer and drop your shield/prepare an attack to avoid being grabbed. Other than that, it's just conditioning your opponent and playing a strong mental and punish game.



>For Glory..
>Goes into Sudden death even if you have a 200% lead but same stocks

That being said; patience is always key. Even faster characters with projectiles have more move commitment now. Wait for your opening and punish if you have to. You can still force openings on good players, you just have to scare/condition them.

In any tournament situation, I won't approach their "bubble" if I have even a 20% lead. <That is not difficult at all with Bowser. I'll stay back and pivot/poke their bubble and threaten space. If they screw up: I'll go in. If I see a pattern: I'll go in.

If I get bored: I'll go in. Just as a mix-up. XD

If they try to camp you and don't approach, you win when the time goes out. Yay. If you're playing For Glory, just get the stock lead and do this.

It's all about learning an opponent's effective range.

Did you ever watch Tom and Jerry as a kid?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vkKIxzKjZA&feature=player_detailpage#t=24

Tom=What Bowser should be doing
Dog=Every other player/character's tears



Not true. Even rushing them down applies some pressure. It forces them to react or get hit. Charge at them and stop just before their effective range and see how they react. Do an empty jump towards them and double jump away. Do they roll? Dodge? Shield? Attack where they thought you would be? Learn their habits and minimize yours.

Threaten space with Pivot Ftilt/Pivot grab or Jab 1. Crawl backwards to dodge some aerial approaches and threaten d-tilt or down-b.



"I'll prepare a compilation of my own videos while looking for tournament videos of Bowsers that are remotely as good as me...>_> (/cocky*******)"

That's the best f***ing text I ever had to read here. Definitely going to learn from this.

 

[S_B]

Use it intelligently. There are plenty of situations to ensure that it hits, shield or otherwise. It's safe on hit and shield. Cover your landings, catch them trying to recover, punish their rolls; learn to b-reversal and wavebounce it. Wavebounce Fire is still really good.



I'll prepare a compilation of my own videos while looking for tournament videos of Bowsers that are remotely as good as me...>_> (/cocky*******)

Jokes aside, I never said that you can dismantle characters that give you a hard time. Those hard MUs can definitely be won though; it's like Raiden said, Bowser has plenty of feint/fake-out options this time around. (One of them is wavebounce Fire...) His jab 1 is a super safe poke and shielding is really good in this game and requires minimal commitment. You can perfect-shield/shield run to rush down a projectile spammer and drop your shield/prepare an attack to avoid being grabbed. Other than that, it's just conditioning your opponent and playing a strong mental and punish game.



>For Glory..
>Goes into Sudden death even if you have a 200% lead but same stocks

That being said; patience is always key. Even faster characters with projectiles have more move commitment now. Wait for your opening and punish if you have to. You can still force openings on good players, you just have to scare/condition them.

In any tournament situation, I won't approach their "bubble" if I have even a 20% lead. <That is not difficult at all with Bowser. I'll stay back and pivot/poke their bubble and threaten space. If they screw up: I'll go in. If I see a pattern: I'll go in.

If I get bored: I'll go in. Just as a mix-up. XD

If they try to camp you and don't approach, you win when the time goes out. Yay. If you're playing For Glory, just get the stock lead and do this.

It's all about learning an opponent's effective range.

Did you ever watch Tom and Jerry as a kid?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vkKIxzKjZA&feature=player_detailpage#t=24

Tom=What Bowser should be doing
Dog=Every other player/character's tears



Not true. Even rushing them down applies some pressure. It forces them to react or get hit. Charge at them and stop just before their effective range and see how they react. Do an empty jump towards them and double jump away. Do they roll? Dodge? Shield? Attack where they thought you would be? Learn their habits and minimize yours.

Threaten space with Pivot Ftilt/Pivot grab or Jab 1. Crawl backwards to dodge some aerial approaches and threaten d-tilt or down-b.



"I'll prepare a compilation of my own videos while looking for tournament videos of Bowsers that are remotely as good as me...>_> (/cocky*******)"

I understand all of this, but my point is that the "toolkit" you're listing is already in everyone's arsenal.

Yes, you can mindgame your opponent, but they can certainly do the same to you. A smart opponent will know going into the fight that you'll be trying to bait them into making a mistake because that's the best way Bowser can rack up damage and the ONLY way he can reliably KO.

Can you use these techniques to do well? Most definitely: that's how I do as well as I do in for glory, but as I said, I see the mistakes as my opponent makes them, and they're mistakes that a smarter opponent wouldn't make (the same mistakes that better opponents DON'T make).

This is why I expect Bowser will still wind up low tier. When everyone is at the same or close skill level, that's when it all comes down to the character's toolkit and I still see Bowser having the same issues he always did here.

I'll take a look at the videos. Maybe there's some part of Bowser's toolkit that I'm missing here...

 

[Raiden mk-II]

@ S_B It seems you are implying that because you personally cannot completely dominate opponents of skill equal to or greater than yours with Bowser, he should be considered disadvantaged or low tier.

 

[S_B]

@ S_B It seems you are implying that because you personally cannot completely dominate opponents of skill equal to or greater than yours with Bowser, he should be considered disadvantaged or low tier.

Even when I spent the last post pointing out that I feel that Bowser's toolkit is ultimately what is lacking?

We've been through this whole song and dance before with Brawl: yeah, Bowser was MUCH better in Brawl than he was in melee. He had increased range on his jabs, a better f-tilt and some other improvements that everyone was excited about. But the rest of the cast was still better off than he was.

Once again, this is the best Bowser of all Bowsers, but that's EXACTLY the same thing we were saying in Brawl.

This time, he's the most competitive he has ever been, no question, but all I'm saying is that I'm not holding my breath for him to be a decent tier. Heavy, slower characters always start out with people being generally bad at fighting them. Once people have figured out their tricks, however, it's all downhill, and like I said, Bowser's toolkit has largely remained unchanged.

Mind you, I'd love to be wrong, but we've gotten our hopes up before. Fool me twice, after all...