I kinda miss the old Din's Fire

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You can't stuff someone's approach if you can't force them to approach you.

 

[CÁT Rose]

You understand that this approach pretty much damns the character to low viability, correct?

I actually disagree I belive zelda is fine where she is she is a very unique character with her defensive pressure she has hard hitting moves and the capability to put offensive pressure on I could go for a quicker run speed but its by no means needed she can't chase as well as other and yes that will force people to play similarly with her but you can always make a character your own so I guess I don't know what you mean by " damns a character to low viability please explain" ?

 

[CÁT Rose]

You understand that this approach pretty much damns the character to low viability, correct?

I actually disagree I belive zelda is fine where she is she is a very unique character with her defensive pressure she has hard hitting moves and the capability to put offensive pressure on I could go for a quicker run speed but its by no means needed she can't chase as well as other and yes that will force people to play similarly with her but you can always make a character your own so I guess I don't know what you mean by " damns a character to low viability please explain" ?

 

[Deleted member]

Being unable to effectively attack is huge detrimental in a game based on attacking the opponent. That's pretty much all that needs to be said on the issue.

"Hitting people is good"

 

[Strong Badam]

I actually disagree I belive zelda is fine where she is she is a very unique character with her defensive pressure she has hard hitting moves and the capability to put offensive pressure on I could go for a quicker run speed but its by no means needed she can't chase as well as other and yes that will force people to play similarly with her but you can always make a character your own so I guess I don't know what you mean by " damns a character to low viability please explain" ?

Sentences. Use them please? =P

 

[jtm94]

Just change her, is she changed already?
Is she changed yet?
How about now?
Now?

 

[Deleted member]

to be fair i want to test it before it's final. so i hope t's not done yet.

 

[otheusrex]

It would be really pleasant if all the zeldas could test her before it's final rather than just the one who happens to agree with the pmbr

 

[Pika_thunder]

It would be really pleasant if all the zeldas could test her before it's final rather than just the one who happens to agree with the pmbr

I think this is the best idea.

 

[Deleted member]

It would be really pleasant if all the zeldas could test her before it's final rather than just the one who happens to agree with the pmbr

having spent some time with the zelda players as a group and listening to their reasoning, i disagree with this idea heavily. it's basically asking for a bitchfest without any actual constructive feedback. the emotional volatility of that group is why i left it in the first place, and i'd recommend any other group that can willfully avoid it to do so.

 

[Sardonyx]

having spent some time with the zelda players as a group and listening to their reasoning, i disagree with this idea heavily. it's basically asking for a bitchfest without any actual constructive feedback. the emotional volatility of that group is why i left it in the first place, and i'd recommend any other group that can willfully avoid it to do so.

Can you please not publicly tell people to stay away and tell everyone that we're a *****fest and emotionally volatile? That's not even close to the truth.

 

[otheusrex]

having spent some time with the zelda players as a group and listening to their reasoning, i disagree with this idea heavily. it's basically asking for a bitchfest without any actual constructive feedback. the emotional volatility of that group is why i left it in the first place, and i'd recommend any other group that can willfully avoid it to do so.

Because some people zelda players disagreed with you, you think they should be completely cut off? I was there during most of the arguments and I read the others afterwards and while I'd agree that there were some unnecessary things said to you, you weren't exactly the model of professionalism either. I always liked you being in our conversations because you have different ideas and even though I didn't agree with all of them, I liked entertaining where they would go. It made me really sad that you left simply because people argued with you, and it made me disappointed because it suggested that your outreach to us was more about trying to teach us why we are wrong rather than to genuinely listen to our ideas. I think this not only from the end result of you getting frustrated and leaving, but because when some people disagreed with your assertions you called all of us stupid.

If you step back from yourself and look at all your posts here, it appears to us that you are emotionally volatile as well. You probably don't think so because it's easy to dismiss our own behavior when we feel we are the victim of persecution. I always felt you got very defensive when people disagreed with you, Umbreon, but I forgave it because I was grateful to have someone passionate and challenging sparking real debate in our group. I wish you'd return.

 

[the_irish_dude]

so....i thought this was a thread about dins fire? lets go back to the fighter stance forced explosion

 

[Spire]

It'd be great if Din's Fire worked like Brawl, but with the addition of quickly tapping B upon release to lock as a Project M style mine.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

It'd be great if Din's Fire worked like Brawl, but with the addition of quickly tapping B upon release to lock as a Project M style mine.

That's an awesome idea, but I fear it would be OP if it had the immediate Brawl explosion as now players can only do one air dodge. They could potentially get stuck in a Din's infinite from a distance without any direct character contact which would definitely be unfair. I do think it's a very creative idea though.

 

[Spire]

I mean, one way to ease the imbalance (though not solve it) would be to minimize damage/knockback dealt upon the immediate explosion, building and releasing in full like Project M's fire instead.

I'd be curious to see PM Din's Fire replace Sheik's neutral B (change the effect to a shadow article), totally changing Zelda's Din's Fire to be something like her up-tilt where she arcs her hand from side to side, drawing a fireball from the ground on one side, arcing over and connecting with the ground (or if by a ledge/in the air, continuing along a circle until it hit something/completed the circle—explode!).

I'm just keen on Din's Fire resembling its OoT performance more without becoming a second magic shield attack. Blegh, can't explain it in words well enough. Here:

The fire would be summoned from in front or behind her depending on the direction inputed. It can also explode by releasing B immediately, otherwise holding it would arc until it contacts something.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

I mean, one way to ease the imbalance (though not solve it) would be to minimize damage/knockback dealt upon the immediate explosion, building and releasing in full like Project M's fire instead.

I'd be curious to see PM Din's Fire replace Sheik's neutral B (change the effect to a shadow article), totally changing Zelda's Din's Fire to be something like her up-tilt where she arcs her hand from side to side, drawing a fireball from the ground on one side, arcing over and connecting with the ground (or if by a ledge/in the air, continuing along a circle until it hit something/completed the circle—explode!).

I'm just keen on Din's Fire resembling its OoT performance more without becoming a second magic shield attack. Blegh, can't explain it in words well enough. Here:

The fire would be summoned from in front or behind her depending on the direction inputed. It can also explode by releasing B immediately, otherwise holding it would arc until it contacts something.

You've got some really creative ideas. It's fun to think about what other ways you can have Zelda function just with the whole magic aspect of her.

 

[jtm94]

I like the idea of forcing dins to explode at THE END of the taunt where she holds the fire.

I also REALLY like the idea of making Nayru's faster/speeding it up in order for it to be more precisely reactive instead of having such a leeway for it's timing. You just press it if someone is coming at you and it stuffs their approach, if it was faster you at least have to be more precise, AND it doesn't stun people for as long.

 

[otheusrex]

@ Spire
Awesome drawing, man!

I have an idea for dins fire where she'd only get one dins, but the mine would stay out indefinitely and recasting a dins would make the first one explode during the start up of recasting another.
Placing the mine would be a little faster to make it on par with other zoning tools like boomerang, but it would still be clankable just like it is now. The explosion part of it wouldn't kill anymore and would be smaller but still bigger and more kb than the mine. If you were really good at aiming and predicting, you could still juggle the opponent by exploding a dins near them, and then catching them with another dins during their rebound

 

[jtm94]

@ Spire
Awesome drawing, man!

I have an idea for dins fire where she'd only get one dins, but the mine would stay out indefinitely and recasting a dins would make the first one explode during the start up of recasting another.
Placing the mine would be a little faster to make it on par with other zoning tools like boomerang, but it would still be clankable just like it is now. The explosion part of it wouldn't kill anymore and would be smaller but still bigger and more kb than the mine. If you were really good at aiming and predicting, you could still juggle the opponent by exploding a dins near them, and then catching them with another dins during their rebound

Making dins last longer is AMAZING for true zoning.

I do not like that in order to maintain dins pressure you are stuck placing them, it becomes quite tedious. It is incredibly disheartening that you can place so many in key places and just have someone wait 'em out. Lasting dins could work like Snake's mines to control and set up combos. Them not exploding makes it so you can place, hit them into it, then hit again for continuing combos that otherwise wouldn't be possible. If it placed faster it would be more worth using in tight situations and the explosion adds a really neat use. I would DEFINITELY play with that style of dins to see how viable it was.

I really don't think 3 dins is necessary, it seems like way too much imo. You can pull off crazy combos with 3, but most practical uses utilize 2 at most, and even back throw into dins just uses 1. I would really like to vie for 2 dins, but they last longer and can be detonated with the fire taunt. They would have a shmedium size, easily clankable and able to be cut through just like now. That way they provide more long-term usage. I hate investing time into something that will be there for 3 seconds. One could say the same about Link's boomerang, but the fact that it has an active hitbox while moving makes it > dins. He doesn't have to wait until it comes back to move, or become immobile while he is active.

Let dins be an aerial blockade of sorts. It isn't large or obtrusive, 2 cannot largely cut off a stage, less than the 3 can now actually, and you can set one in the air, upthrow into the aerial placed one, then follow up with uair when they would have otherwise went too high or got out of hitstun. It can encourage going in to combo into them, and alone they possess little KO power unlike Snake's mine/C4.

 

[drsusredfish]

i think this low cool down time long lasting single remote exploding din idea has been talked about before.

http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-balance-and-mu-learning.346283/page-5

 

[jtm94]

Yeah I remember the conversation.

 

[BJN39]

Honestly, when it comes to Zelda, what hasn't been talked about. > , >

 

[Wavebuster]

While I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that fair and bair have shield decay properties, it's just like, what is the point of adding something so specific to the game that you have to know "fair will decay his shield just enough so that I can poke a dtilt if he's dumb enough to just sit there in his shield!"

Zelda is pretty much the prime example of what a lot of players feel is wrong with P:M. She is the ultimate "forced design" character (as Vro would say).

You guys have manufactured her to play in such a specific way that unless you play exactly the way you intend her to be, she is completely unviable. There is no room for creativity and differing play styles with this character because she has been designed in such specific ways. There is no point in adding extra shield damage to fair with the intention of being able to dtilt after wards. A character should be dynamic and have room to evolve. Each player should look unique playing the same character. Instead we have every single Zelda main basically becoming a carbon copy of Zhime, because that is the only viable way to play her.

This is the biggest crock I've ever heard.

Sweetspotted aerials do shield damage. Shield damage can be applied to a lot of things including straight shield pressure, forcing them to be offensive in fear of shield breaks, etc. Dtilt has always been a good move for poking under shields, even in Melee. Attacks that do shield damage help the move realize this more. The move itself has multiple uses that don't necessitate hitting a shield with a sweetspotted aerial first, it just helps.

It makes every bit as much sense as saying Fox's Usmash kills super well off the top, might as well use it that way.

Every Zelda being a carbon copy of zhime is an even bigger crock. Multiple different, effective playstyles for Zelda exist from agressive to defensive to zhime's pitch-a-tent. Zelda's moves have always had specific uses, but her low mobility limits how she can use these moves, a very obvious luxury Fox has but Zelda doesn't. Making Zelda move faster just for the sake of moving faster though is stupid.

 

[Bakasama]

You can still use Din's offensively. It immediately drops when it comes into contact with the ground, so you can fling it at people and slam it into the ground to arm the flame. That and it's speed is amazing, so you can leave it in the way when the opponent is recovery to setup for a lightning kick. But I pretty much like to drop 3 on the ground while I'm approaching, or drop them on the ground during wave-bounces, and then just sort of fling the opponents into them during grab animations and stuff. Oh, and also Zelda has invuln during her neutral B startup now, so Zelda can parry now. So whoever said everyone must play like Zhime is a butt, because you don't need to pitch a tent when you have a parry option.

I keep coming back and editting; But I wanted to say, Zelda has basically Ganon's dair now, and you can still pretty effectively play her as Melee Zelda ala Cosmowright, so combine kick spacing with the crazy dair and you've got an explosive character. Yes, you should use Din's frequently, but no, you don't need to use it to create a defensive triangle. You can use it for landing mixups, recovering, clanking. You can drop it literally directly infront of you. If you use it midair, you can toss it behind you basically as you fly past it, or you can even time it so it drops on the enemy as you pass them midair and it pops them up, setting up for a grab at low %, or a kick at higher %. Zelda has a lot of options. You want a Zelda that has one option? Again, look at Melee Zelda. Weave and kick. You do nothing else.

 

[moltenrokk]

Finally found the thread I was looking for. I just want to say that Brawl Dins Fires would be way better that the current Dins Fires for one reason only, Air Dodging. PM only gets one air dodge like melee. Zelda's Dins fires in Brawl were a direct improvement over the melee counterpart. In brawl they were much faster, easier to control, had huge hitboxes and had reduced lag time to use. This move was really only used in brawl as a edge guarding tool but proved useless because air dodges could be spammed back to the stage. If the Brawl's Dins fire were in PM, no one could airdodge them. Its either dodge and die in freefall or die from fire. Only characters such as Lucas, Ness, Mario, and G&W (with empty Bucket) could possibly get back to stage unscathed. Thats why they had to change it because it was way too good. Thus we got the new version, which is more fair for Melee Mechanics and more strategic than spamming super explosive anti air flack in your face.

 

[Lil Puddin]

I mean, one way to ease the imbalance (though not solve it) would be to minimize damage/knockback dealt upon the immediate explosion, building and releasing in full like Project M's fire instead.

I'd be curious to see PM Din's Fire replace Sheik's neutral B (change the effect to a shadow article), totally changing Zelda's Din's Fire to be something like her up-tilt where she arcs her hand from side to side, drawing a fireball from the ground on one side, arcing over and connecting with the ground (or if by a ledge/in the air, continuing along a circle until it hit something/completed the circle—explode!).

I'm just keen on Din's Fire resembling its OoT performance more without becoming a second magic shield attack. Blegh, can't explain it in words well enough. Here:

The fire would be summoned from in front or behind her depending on the direction inputed. It can also explode by releasing B immediately, otherwise holding it would arc until it contacts something.

Great Goddess Zeldoo, that is an amazing idea. It'd be like Ness' yoyo but with an explosion which compliments her scary defensiveness and snap counters. Her up tilt is just as good as her current upsmash, if not better. So this being the new upsmash would mean bringing more fiery magic to offset all that lightning.

It'd be cool to make it like Aisha's Flame Circle from Elsword but that would be pushing it way too far.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nra-EXp0Qg

 

[Kaeldiar]

You can't stuff someone's approach if you can't force them to approach you.

I would just like to say ^ this times a million. That's sort of how Zelda works in PM. She has a few okay approaches, but also more ways to force an approach. In Melee/Brawl she didn't really have that