I kinda miss the old Din's Fire

[Lil Puddin]

I like the new one, but the old way made her feel a lot more offensive. I would often use it as an approach, and the mere sight of it made people wary to actually come at me since it could move up almost instantly and explode at any moment. Though her going into a helpless state after using it midair was pretty dumb, though I could understand why they made it that way since momentum+Din's fire = weeeeeeeeeeeee gliiiiiiiiiiiiiding

The time it sticks around doesn't really help me to love the new one as much as the old one either. It's kind of like "I sit here and hope you run into the right position" or "I chase you around like a bat out of hell and hope I scare you into being where I need you to be within the 3 seconds I have before my fire-air-mines explode." So most of the time I'm not even using it. With the old one it's just "Oh I missed. OK. Let's do something else or try again." OR "Oh it hit, now I can utilize the flinch to try and do something OR just be fine with the decent damage it dealt." OOOR "Oh no I am facing someone who likes spammy projectiles, I will spam my own and also BBBBBBBBBB."

 

[Ogopogo]

New Din's is great for forcing someone to make a choice that they wouldn't normally, and then punishing them immensely. I like it.

You're free to not like it, though. All personal preference.

 

[Deleted member]

Old Din's wasn't that good unless you were playing inexperienced opponents. Unlike other projectiles where you can shoot them off quickly and then move around, Zelda is forced to stay in place for a long time because she has to control the fireball. When the fireball simply exploded right away, it was very easy to avoid and didn't allow for many follow-up opportunities when she did hit with it. Now that Din's lingers and she can have 3 out at once, she can actually control space with them and can combo with them because of the fact that she can now move around while there are hitboxes placed around the stage.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Old Din's wasn't that good unless you were playing inexperienced opponents. Unlike other projectiles where you can shoot them off quickly and then move around, Zelda is forced to stay in place for a long time because she has to control the fireball. When the fireball simply exploded right away, it was very easy to avoid and didn't allow for many follow-up opportunities when she did hit with it. Now that Din's lingers and she can have 3 out at once, she can actually control space with them and can combo with them because of the fact that she can now move around while there are hitboxes placed around the stage.

That's a very good point too. I don't think I really noticed the time she stayed still because I always glided around when using it. It's just the 3 seconds that really gets me. I suppose I'm not used to Project M is all, even though I've been dabbling with it for a little over a month now.

 

[Arcalyth]

3 seconds is a LONG time in Project M.

Also, every time you place a new fireball, the timers on all existing fireballs are reset. So you can actually get quite a bit longer than 3 seconds on a fireball before it detonates.

 

[JediLink]

 

[caldonis]

loved using the old dins fire against friends but the new one is much bettter competitively

 

[CÁT Rose]

I like the new din's because you can set up your situations easily also if planted right you can slightly work it like the old din's fire

 

[WhiteLightnin]

I like the new din's because you can set up your situations easily also if planted right you can slightly work it like the old din's fire

I agree. It just requires Zelda players to have a bit more control as they have to land it with the Din's itself rather than relying on the expanded explosion previously.

 

[Deleted member]

i miss the old one too. competitively it was much better.

 

[BJN39]

competitively it was much better.

Which is 100% wrong. At least, compared to melee.

 

[Deleted member]

Which is 100% wrong. At least, compared to melee.

you realize that this game is a hack of brawl right. brawl din's is wayyyy better than PM din's.

 

[Wavebuster]

Brawl Din's wasn't deep enough to threaten people on the other side of the stage camping out Zelda, and the explosion was clankable of all things. The only thing it could have possibly been better than PM Din's at is edgeguarding, and even that is a stretch.

 

[Deleted member]

edge guarding is the only thing din's is good for anyway. any point your opponent is on the stage you should be trying to play the footsie game with them to leverage position on them so they're not camping you out right back. din's on stage is pretty mediocre harassment compared to what she can do when she starts taking options from your opponent backed by her OOS game, which basically any conversion leads to kick and an edge guard. forgoing aggression sucks, which is basically the opportunity cost to using din's vs an opponent on the stage. new din's is basically only better if you're recovering high and you want to cover your recovery before using it.

 

[otheusrex]

Dins is meh if you aren't good at using it.

 

[Deleted member]

brawl din's is wayyyy better than PM din's.

There is no way Brawl Din's is better than PM Din's. Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Deleted member]

There is no way Brawl Din's is better than PM Din's. Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

good refutation. i particularly like your supporting argument. very convincing.

 

[Deleted member]

Why should I repeat what's already been stated on a one-page thread? I'm simply agreeing with those previous points. Frankly, I'm surprised if you're not aware of Brawl Din's being considered one of the worst projectiles in that game. If it was bad there, how could it possibly be any good in a game that is much faster paced?

 

[Deleted member]

1. it's a different game that plays out differently
2. it can be adjusted in PM anyway
3. i've already stated that din's is basically only good for edge guarding anyway. both versions are bad vs an experienced opponent that's on the stage
4. you still haven't refuted me that the trade-off against playing footsies is better in any way

din's is only good for free harassment, which is basically when you're edge guarding or the opponent can't do anything about it on the stage, but then on the stage you have a nearly strictly superior alternative. so you might as well make it better for edge guarding, which brawl din's does.

 

[Deleted member]

It's not only useful for edgeguarding. It controls space on stage and it is actually possible to combo off of it, neither of which Brawl Din's could ever hope to do. Also, trying to nullify the mines could leave the opponent open for punishment, whereas Zelda had zero chance of doing anything to them if they nullified the Brawl one. I'm not saying current Din's is incredible or anything, but Brawl Din's was significantly more limited in its number of uses.

 

[Deleted member]

i don't think you should use it to "control space" vs better players when you can simply have zelda's character do that with a much more threatening capacity. they're both bad on the stage where you should actually be playing smash and like, dashdancing or wavedashing or trying to cover your opponent. neither version of din's is good at this.

personally i don't mind the new din's, i just think it kinda sucks and don't use it. it just turned din's from a good edge guarding tool into a mediocre one, and it gave mid-level players a false sense of how to play the character well. i see using din's in neutral the same way i see using marth's nair in neutral, basically you just shouldn't be doing it.

 

[Wavebuster]

Din's was never a good edgeguarding tool in any of the standard Smash games.

With Melee air dodge mechanics, Brawl's giant-sized yet still godawful in Brawl Din's Fire suddenly became an elephant in the room. It either singlehandedly slaughtered characters with limited recovery options, or was trivialized by floaties who could attack right through it with recovery room to spare. It was excised well before any public PM releases even happened, let alone the concept of the Din's Fire in effect today. Brawl Din's is a useless comparison to make at all when this is realized. Zelda herself has better edgeguarding abilities not dependent on aiming with Din's Fire (aerial UpB ribbon gimps are much deadlier than people think), and switching to Sheik to edgeguard offers an even more potent set of edgeguarding options, one of which is any Din's Fires exploding immediately.

Remember that setting even one well-placed Din's on the stage makes anything Zelda does normally that much more threatening with the space coverage it offers and restricting how they can move or attack. It extends Zelda's combo and damage potential due to the power of the explosions if you are aware of their timing which doesn't take long to learn. You can have both. There's a difference between something actually not being effective and glossing over something because it doesn't fit your comfort zone of what things "should be."

 

[Deleted member]

There's a difference between something actually not being effective and glossing over something because it doesn't fit your comfort zone of what things "should be."

That's a jump in logic that I never made. I've not brought my personal preferences to this debate in any way.

The rest of your post was some good stuff to think about though.

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

New Din > Old Din. I didn't even know it was an opinion.

Traps/setups/spacing > Easy, predictable projectile that can be sidestepped with ease. Only noobs actually view old Din as a threat.

 

[Deleted member]

To be clear Umbreon, I'm actually completely open to experimenting with changes to Din's. How could I argue with potentially making one of her moves more useful? I just don't think Brawl Din's is the way to go at all.

 

[otheusrex]

To be clear Umbreon, I'm actually completely open to experimenting with changes to Din's. How could I argue with potentially making one of her moves more useful? I just don't think Brawl Din's is the way to go at all.

I agree.

And if one were to entertain changes to her dins, I think the logical place to start is how one'd want it to function. Is it a kill move directly? If so, then make sure it has high kb and kbg (ex. ness's pk flash). Is it to rack up damage from a safe distance? Make it able to deal damage with relative safety (ex. fox's lasers). Is it to force an opening? Design it to work with her mobility so she can capitalize off of it's kb (ex. falco's lasers). Is it to control space for long periods? Make it have long lasting active hitboxes (ex. snake's mines). Is it to finish combos when zelda can't follow the opponent's trajectory herself? Make it quick enough to chase the opponent (ex. mewtwo's shadow ball). Is it to zone space for her to weave in and out of close quarters? Make it travel with active hitboxes (ex. link's boomerang).

I think looking at the properties of dins fire currently shows that the move (whether successful or not) attempts to do much of these functions, either directly such as the explosions being ko moves, or situationally, such as an opponent running into the medium kb mine giving zelda an opening. So if you're looking at brawl din's as being more useful for zelda, what is it about it that you'd like to recreate for a new build? And if you retro the move then is that new function good enough to make up for the multiple functions it currently tries to fulfill? either in making it excel at the one thing it does, or by compensating zelda in other ways to make up for the lost functions?

 

[CÁT Rose]

New din's is a less predictable way to edge guard you can set them up to force your opponent to go high then punish with an Aerial but to be honest I LOVED spamming the brawl din but the fact is you might get hit by brawls version two maybe three times but you adapt then its almost useless

 

[BJN39]

you realize that this game is a hack of brawl right. brawl din's is wayyyy better than PM din's.

^This post gave me a good laugh.

One problem with the argument in this thread, is that we are arguing from different perspectives. Umbreon kinda (At least, I think > _ >) wants Zelda to be more Melee-like, and would rather have a what most Zeldas find less useful "non-hacked" smash bros style din's. While most P:M Zelda mains either like this Din's or see it in a different way, or at least want it to NOT be like Din's from Melee/Brawl.

Wavebuster pretty much makes the point to me, and I feel like I learn something new about Zelda each time he comes in to talk. I mean seriously, FAir/BAir have special sheild damage modifiers or something to make Dtilt more potent as a followup on shield. I would've never known that.

Honestly, this argument will end up getting nowhere in P:M as Umbreon already even mentioned the PMBR is not thinking of doing major changes to Din's, (For whatever "PR reasons BS") so we should probably just let it go...

 

[Wavebuster]

I mean seriously, FAir/BAir have special sheild damage modifiers or something to make Dtilt more potent as a followup on shield. I would've never known that.

Too bad those are apparently going to hit the chopping block.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't actually know what the PMBR is doing. I don't have access to that conversation in any way, nor have I asked for any correspondence.

I don't want PM Zelda to be more like Melee or Brawl because both iterations of that character had severe flaws. I simply want to improve her capacity for aggression while reducing her capacity for defense to make her more interactive. It's pretty straightforward IMO.

 

[CÁT Rose]

I don't actually know what the PMBR is doing. I don't have access to that conversation in any way, nor have I asked for any correspondence.

I don't want PM Zelda to be more like Melee or Brawl because both iterations of that character had severe flaws. I simply want to improve her capacity for aggression while reducing her capacity for defense to make her more interactive. It's pretty straightforward IMO.

There's no point in making her more aggressive she is a character with some tricks up her sleeve if you want agressive play - down B

 

[Pika_thunder]

Too bad those are apparently going to hit the chopping block.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! The reason I picked this character is fair / Bair.

That is like taking falcon's knee! Who would do that? Not like those moves are the coolest part of her character.(sarcasm)

 

[Blondie.]

Too bad those are apparently going to hit the chopping block.

While I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that fair and bair have shield decay properties, it's just like, what is the point of adding something so specific to the game that you have to know "fair will decay his shield just enough so that I can poke a dtilt if he's dumb enough to just sit there in his shield!"

Zelda is pretty much the prime example of what a lot of players feel is wrong with P:M. She is the ultimate "forced design" character (as Vro would say).

You guys have manufactured her to play in such a specific way that unless you play exactly the way you intend her to be, she is completely unviable. There is no room for creativity and differing play styles with this character because she has been designed in such specific ways. There is no point in adding extra shield damage to fair with the intention of being able to dtilt after wards. A character should be dynamic and have room to evolve. Each player should look unique playing the same character. Instead we have every single Zelda main basically becoming a carbon copy of Zhime, because that is the only viable way to play her.

 

[Rizner]

This thread has turned into something gross.


Also,

You guys have manufactured her to play in such a specific way that unless you play exactly the way you intend her to be, she is completely unviable. There is no room for creativity and differing play styles with this character because she has been designed in such specific ways. There is no point in adding extra shield damage to fair with the intention of being able to dtilt after wards. A character should be dynamic and have room to evolve. Each player should look unique playing the same character. Instead we have every single Zelda main basically becoming a carbon copy of Zhime, because that is the only viable way to play her.

I disagree. Zhime and I play very differently, and I have a decent amount of success with her.

 

[Sardonyx]

While I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that fair and bair have shield decay properties, it's just like, what is the point of adding something so specific to the game that you have to know "fair will decay his shield just enough so that I can poke a dtilt if he's dumb enough to just sit there in his shield!"

Zelda is pretty much the prime example of what a lot of players feel is wrong with P:M. She is the ultimate "forced design" character (as Vro would say).

You guys have manufactured her to play in such a specific way that unless you play exactly the way you intend her to be, she is completely unviable. There is no room for creativity and differing play styles with this character because she has been designed in such specific ways. There is no point in adding extra shield damage to fair with the intention of being able to dtilt after wards. A character should be dynamic and have room to evolve. Each player should look unique playing the same character. Instead we have every single Zelda main basically becoming a carbon copy of Zhime, because that is the only viable way to play her.

I do just fine as Zelda and I don't play the same way as Zhime. If you feel that Zelda has that problem, look at Fox, Falco, Jiggly. They have it worse.

 

[Blondie.]

Ok, perhaps I was slightly exaggerating by saying "carbon copy", but I still feel like Zelda really only promotes a specific playstyle. And that is just not healthy for the game imo.

Fox, Falco, and even Jiggs have lots of room for creativity. Just look at how different M2K vs Mango vs Leffen play Fox. Also look at Mango vs PP vs Shiz vs Westballz vs DEHF for Falco. And for Jiggs Hbox plays much different than Mango used to. These characters all have a deep pool of options that allow for lots of creativity. That is just not the case for Zelda.

 

[otheusrex]

It's kind of hard to tell if zelda's design allows for different styles or not at this point because there aren't any zelda's who are near as good as zhime is yet. I've had my suspicions that her combo/punish game might be a little narrow, but I keep going back and forth with what I think about this so I'm not sure. I definitely don't want zelda to be a best option only character, but every now and then I relearn a move and find some new functions for it that I missed.

 

[Sardonyx]

Ok, perhaps I was slightly exaggerating by saying "carbon copy", but I still feel like Zelda really only promotes a specific playstyle. And that is just not healthy for the game imo.

Fox, Falco, and even Jiggs have lots of room for creativity. Just look at how different M2K vs Mango vs Leffen play Fox. Also look at Mango vs PP vs Shiz vs Westballz vs DEHF for Falco. And for Jiggs Hbox plays much different than Mango used to. These characters all have a deep pool of options that allow for lots of creativity. That is just not the case for Zelda.

Fox is mostly up throw to up air, a random up smash, shines, and up airs in my opinion. Every fox i've went up against utilized basically the same playstyle, with slight variation. Jiggly is mostly up, back, and forward air, with some other moves mixed in. I'll admit that i haven't seen many falco's but whenever I do, it's usually a shine, to down air, or up throw to up air. It just feels like there's little variation between each player because they do what works. Zelda is different from her other incarnations, so a lot of people are gonna have a problem with her still. A lot of people don't know what she can do yet, so they're not used to her.

 

[jtm94]

I do agree Zelda leaves less room for originality than other characters do.
That's all I really have to say.

 

[Deleted member]

There's no point in making her more aggressive she is a character with some tricks up her sleeve if you want agressive play - down B

You understand that this approach pretty much damns the character to low viability, correct?