I have an erie feeling that Villager will be nerfed badly

[Mtn64]

Yeah, you definitely need to chase him. Villager loves his space. But yeah, my thoughts are in that link!
I don't think those are rather great counters, but if it works for ya good! Certainly better matchups than Wii Fit as Mac has better speed and Lucina has better range though. Aha, yeah, I love baiting reflects.
And I've also never seen Villager gimped by Balloon pops! Maybe they could make it easier in a patch, cause it really seems like those balloons were meant to be easier to be popped. Kinda like Lil Mac's side-b recovery was alright, they patched that to make it worse as intended.

I've actually killed a few villagers with fair snipes as villager on their balloons.

 

[Sonsa]

I've actually killed a few villagers with fair snipes as villager on their balloons.

Oh cool! Well hey, it probably doesnt need to be patched if it hasnt already. Ive just never seen Villager gimped like that personally. Maybe one of these days!

 

[captain clutch]

Oh cool! Well hey, it probably doesnt need to be patched if it hasnt already. Ive just never seen Villager gimped like that personally. Maybe one of these days!

Funny thing, the only time I've had both if my balloons popped to gimp me was with another Villager using fsmash.
Anyways, I don't think any character outside the top 5-7 should even be considered for a nerf.

 

[Sonsa]

Funny thing, the only time I've had both if my balloons popped to gimp me was with another Villager using fsmash.
Anyways, I don't think any character outside the top 5-7 should even be considered for a nerf.

Interesting. Feels like multi-hit back airs or foward airs like Megamans back slash or Fox's kicks should do the job, but the main reason I think Ive never seen it happen is cause so rarely do my opponents try. They just assume Villagers recovery is godlike and there's nothing to do so they wait at the ledge and prepare to grab or something.
But hey, patch 1.0.4 Villager got no changes. I'll say again that I dont think anythings happened since then to warrant any concern.

 

[ThatAintFalcon]

Keep in mind that a pocketed tree CAN be reflected as well, so it becomes a VERY risky battle, and Id rather not take part in that.

Also the lloid bait is very obvious against reflectors, but as mentioned, if they aren't stupid, they WILL bait out your feint, and punish your aerial attack.


I absolutely dislike fighting Zelda and Falco with Villager.

Smash Potato!

 

[ThatAintFalcon]

Interesting. Feels like multi-hit back airs or foward airs like Megamans back slash or Fox's kicks should do the job, but the main reason I think Ive never seen it happen is cause so rarely do my opponents try. They just assume Villagers recovery is godlike and there's nothing to do so they wait at the ledge and prepare to grab or something.
But hey, patch 1.0.4 Villager got no changes. I'll say again that I dont think anythings happened since then to warrant any concern.

A rising nutral air with villager, if correctly timed, will pop both balloons. I've mastered this technique to piss off my friend who is also a villager main. The problem with multi-hits like fox's forward air and mega man's back air is that both characters are fairly fast fallers, so even if the initial hits miss villager's hurtbox and pop the balloons you are still likely to hit him with some of the final hits. It doesn't help that as you're doing this, villager's balloons are lifting his hurtbox straight into your hitbox. Probably the best thing is to use a fairly quick attack (no lingering hitbox) with a floaty character or retreat so the lingering hitbox misses him. I don't know if this would work, but maybe link's down air will cause him to bounce if you hit a balloon so you can direct him to hit the other? I will try and let you know if this is viable.

 

[Darklink401]

A rising nutral air with villager, if correctly timed, will pop both balloons. I've mastered this technique to piss off my friend who is also a villager main. The problem with multi-hits like fox's forward air and mega man's back air is that both characters are fairly fast fallers, so even if the initial hits miss villager's hurtbox and pop the balloons you are still likely to hit him with some of the final hits. It doesn't help that as you're doing this, villager's balloons are lifting his hurtbox straight into your hitbox. Probably the best thing is to use a fairly quick attack (no lingering hitbox) with a floaty character or retreat so the lingering hitbox misses him. I don't know if this would work, but maybe link's down air will cause him to bounce if you hit a balloon so you can direct him to hit the other? I will try and let you know if this is viable.

Best thing to do is just sheik needles, lol

 

[ThatAintFalcon]

Again, I'm not trying to discourage any players from using villagers, but yeah...if your aim is to win, carry a counter-pick for his bad match-ups or make HIM the counter-pick.



I wasn't trying to out-rule that possible situation, I addressed it earlier, and I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I guess the confusion came from me saying "I cannot believe somebody just said having to deal with half your moveset being reflected can be potentially to your benefit." What I meant from that post was that speaking in the general sense, your opponent having a reflector does NOT benefit Villager in any way because its simply a lose-lose situation for your opponent to even have that option available. What you are describing is a simple punish, your opponent carelessly used a move incorrectly or like you said, you read that he would. My point was that there exists no character in the game that benefits from their opponent having more options, however bad an option it may be (unless its the unlikely scenario where there is some sort of problem that causes them to be forced to use that move but that is very unlikely). The reflector in this case is an extra option your opponent has to deal with your options, and a really damn good one at that. Just because it is possible that you can read that your opponent will use a certain option and punish it, does not increase your characters potential.

Here's a hypothetical scenario - In the Sonic vs Villager matchup, sonic gains a new option versus Villager that he cannot use on Falco. Sonic obtains the ability to use another different type of bair that kills faster, but is slower and laggier.

Now I will reword your statement with the hypothetical scenario - My point on Villager vs Sonic's second Bair is that the Bair is laggy enough to punish and if you make the read then you DO have a scenario where Villager HAS an advantage it is small, a good player will rarely be hit by it, and a good portion of the time it makes getting back on stage more difficult, but it does exist as a scenario.

While your statement is true, the point I was trying to make is also true that just Sonic having that extra option available for me (and not for some certain other characters) is not to my advantage in any conceivable way. Its a lose-lose situation, you never want your opponent to have more options against you however useless they may be. If the option is a bad option all they have to do is to not ever use that option. Similarly having more options against your opponent is not always to your benefit, but it will never be bad for you, yet it can potentially be to your benefit, but having the ability to limit your opponents options is ALWAYS a win-win situation for you. I hope you can sort of see where the confusion in our arguments came from now and that its clearer to see my point.



See the above statement, I'm not saying that this is not true...but again, you generally still don't want to do that imo because the pocketed projectile can just as easily be reflected and 0HKO you.

And yes I know you can do that, I mentioned it earlier.


At the end of the day though, now that evo is allowing customs, it is very very likely that almost all smash 4 tournaments from now on will allow custom moves. In this case, my earlier statement about villagers viability does not apply at the moment because I don't have a good grasp of custom Villager's full potential, but I do know that he is MUCH better than normal Villager. Rejoice in celebration fellow Villagers!

Just...watch out for custom Mega Mans...;-;

Yeah...villager is definitely a little complicated. Lloid rockets are more useful for traps than damage, and very fast and aggressive or projectile-heavy characters are difficult. Mega man can shut down everything with his mega buster pellets and make approaching very difficult, so even non-custom Mega Man is a problem. Of course, you already know this as a competitive villager player...I'm just a guy who plays for glory.

 

[ThatAintFalcon]

His biggest advantage is that people don't know how to fight him. Things that are a good idea against every other character in the cast will get you killed by villager. For example, recovering low, following offstage, and using follow-ups that aren't true combos. Though he's good, there's really no other character like him and it takes a while to learn to use him. Probably my favorite thing is how neutral air (and sometimes down air) combos into forward and back air offstage.

 

[ThatAintFalcon]

@zeezee , any tips and tricks a fairly new villager player should know? I feel like I have a ton of room for improvement but I don't really know what to do.

 

[AnchorTea]

Zee, any tips and tricks a fairly new villager player should know? I feel like I have a ton of room for improvement but I don't really know what to do.

I can help you with that sorta.

To start, every Villager needs to know how to short hop nair.

 

[ThatAintFalcon]

I can help you with that sorta.

To start, every Villager needs to know how to short hop nair.

Thanks for trying to help, but I meant non-obvious things...What I meant by "fairly new" is that I've used villager for a while but not long enough to catch on to everything unique to him. Short hop aerials are a fundamental used with almost all the characters in the game, but I need tips that mostly apply to villager

 

[Sonsa]

Thanks for trying to help, but I meant non-obvious things...What I meant by "fairly new" is that I've used villager for a while but not long enough to catch on to everything unique to him. Short hop aerials are a fundamental used with almost all the characters in the game, but I need tips that apply to villager only.

I don't see many Villagers do this - guess it's just not well known, but when you ride on gyroid you can actually slow him down by holding back. That can be used for mindgames and punish people who stated charging a smash or something.
Um, ya probably know you can hurl bowling balls over edges and platforms, that's always fun.
Pocket has invincibility, that's sorta well known, what else... oh the one-chop technique, AnchorTea has actually been doing some awesome research for that, might be able to help us get that more consistently. I think we have a thread for Advanced Techs if thats what youre looking for!

 

[ThatAintFalcon]

I don't see many Villagers do this - guess it's just not well known, but when you ride on gyroid you can actually slow him down by holding back. That can be used for mindgames and punish people who stated charging a smash or something.
Um, ya probably know you can hurl bowling balls over edges and platforms, that's always fun.
Pocket has invincibility, that's sorta well known, what else... oh the one-chop technique, AnchorTea has actually been doing some awesome research for that, might be able to help us get that more consistently. I think we have a thread for Advanced Techs if thats what youre looking for!

Is the one-chop when you plant it super close to the edge and only one chop is needed to cut down the whole tree? I think I saw a video on that but I'm curious if it's possible to do anywhere else on the stage. I'll try to find the advanced techniques thread now. Thanks!

 

[Sonsa]

Is the one-chop when you plant it super close to the edge and only one chop is needed to cut down the whole tree? I think I saw a video on that but I'm curious if it's possible to do anywhere else on the stage. I'll try to find the advanced techniques thread now. Thanks!

It takes just one chop, but can in fact be done anywhere on the stage! Platforms and such, wherever ya want. I think it might be stickied and they shorten it to ATs instead of Advanced Techs, but we also have a thread just for the One-chop that I think is called "The One-Chop!" I like calling it the One-Chop Trick myself! Good luck!

 

[Antonykun]

I think that more than the speed and recovery issue, Villager's biggest downfall is going to be her almost non existent kill set ups.

 

[Sonsa]

I think that more than the speed and recovery issue, Villager's biggest downfall is going to be her almost non existent kill set ups.

Killing? Speed is a little lackluster, recovery is great, but killing isn't that much of a problem. Tree, bowling ball, down-smash, down-tilt, up-tilt, ridden gyroid, gyroid by itself in some situations at higher percents, back-throw turnips, even slingshots kill!

I think the main issue Villager faces is...maybe the speed. Also with how linear all their moves are, anyone approaching diagonally can pose a threat.

 

[Antonykun]

Killing? Speed is a little lackluster, recovery is great, but killing isn't that much of a problem. Tree, bowling ball, down-smash, down-tilt, up-tilt, ridden gyroid, gyroid by itself in some situations at higher percents, back-throw turnips, even slingshots kill!

I think the main issue Villager faces is...maybe the speed. Also with how linear all their moves are, anyone approaching diagonally can pose a threat.

No not the kill moves...
Actually landing those kill moves.
like Villager can mostly only kill off a punish unlike say Diddy who can always u air.

 

[captain clutch]

Villager has a solid amount of kill options. It puzzles me to still hear people say that he/she lacks kill ability. What other characters have both a dtilt AND up tilt that can kill? Ganon is one off the top of my heard.

Of course, landing kill moves is something every player has to go through, and most of the time it's from punishes.

 

[Sonsa]

No not the kill moves...
Actually landing those kill moves.
like Villager can mostly only kill off a punish unlike say Diddy who can always u air.

Sure of course, most of Villagers early killers need some reads or punishes, but he has a few moves you can throw around to kill too! Down tilt and up tilt depending on where your opponent is and slingshot (preferably back-air) can be thrown around repeatedly and quickly to kill!
And of course gimping is another form of killing Villager excels at.

 

[Antonykun]

Sure of course, most of Villagers early killers need some reads or punishes, but he has a few moves you can throw around to kill too! Down tilt and up tilt depending on where your opponent is and slingshot (preferably back-air) can be thrown around repeatedly and quickly to kill!
And of course gimping is another form of killing Villager excels at.

The problem with the tilts and slingshot is that it requires some seriously close range. Not saying that they aren't effective, but rather that they require something Villager doesn't do very well, getting in.
This reminds me of want @Player-1 said about Falcons shield. How is Villager going to kill anyone holding a shield? I mean, she's going to eventually by pressuring with hitboxes, but she's not going to do so in a timely manner.
Actually now that I think about it, her lack of kill power is a side effect of her lack of speed.

 

[Sonsa]

The problem with the tilts and slingshot is that it requires some seriously close range. Not saying that they aren't effective, but rather that they require something Villager doesn't do very well, getting in.
This reminds me of want @Player-1 said about Falcons shield. How is Villager going to kill anyone holding a shield? I mean, she's going to eventually by pressuring with hitboxes, but she's not going to do so in a timely manner.
Actually now that I think about it, her lack of kill power is a side effect of her lack of speed.

I suppose Villager is great at racking up damage but needs a good opening to kill, kinda like Sheik. I dunno, I just see a lot of people in other threads saying Villager has such a killing problem that I've never seemed to felt. You run off stage maybe, they follow needing an early kill with rage and try to spike/stagespike and before they get off-stage back-air slingshot, they shoot to the other side of the ledge. And if they're...most of the cast, they're off stage while I'm not. Bowling ball, turnip spike, more slingshots, nair, they're usually quite dead.
I guess if you're having trouble killing, don't keep fishing for a kill on stage, shove em off-stage with a lil jab to f-tilt or something. They can't hold shield in the air!

If you really need something to use against shields, a jumping aerial aimed for behind them can be effective sometimes, but also jab might be the best option. Not a lot of cool down so you should be safe, and based on your positioning it can actually break shields. There was that crazy video someone posted around here of Villy's jab destroying what seems to be a full shield, cool stuff.

Also, I know our grab is quite laggy, and that's scary when grabs, attacks, and shields seem like rock, paper, scissors, but if you know they're ganna hold shield, you're fine, go for it. Sometimes you can even scare em into staying shield with a gyroid.

 

[SoniCraft]

What if against characters with really small grab ranges we made it a mix up to empty jump and properly space and charge an f-smash? That way when they're shielding they have to roll back or eat some shield damage. That or jab I guess is the better option. I dunno, Villager will have to use some mind games to increase his effectiveness, so I'm just trying to think of all the plausible options.

 

[Sonsa]

What if against characters with really small grab ranges we made it a mix up to empty jump and properly space and charge an f-smash? That way when they're shielding they have to roll back or eat some shield damage. That or jab I guess is the better option. I dunno, Villager will have to use some mind games to increase his effectiveness, so I'm just trying to think of all the plausible options.

Sure, taking advantage of small grabs is always a plus. However I imagine players who understand their poor grab will act like us and other similar characters like Pac-Man only really using grabs out of shield or against landings and stuff. Plus small grab ranges... I can only think of Robin and Ganondorf. But I have done the exact punish youve described. Empty jump, forward smash. It works! Or if you're landing from setting up gyroid and retreat just a tad.

 

[ThatAintFalcon]

I think I just did the one-chop trick in for glory...I saved the replay and keep reviewing it, but I can't figure out exactly what I did that caused the tree to fall after one chop.

 

[Sonsa]

I think I just did the one-chop trick in for glory...I saved the replay and keep reviewing it, but I can't figure out exactly what I did that caused the tree to fall after one chop.

If you see the bottom of the sliced tree is perfectly clean, smooth one chop across the tree then congrats you did it! We think you just need to hit the tree perfectly in the middle? Its not fully understood, but from what Ive seen everyone needs to get real close to the tree and hit it in the middle.

 

[ThatAintFalcon]

If you see the bottom of the sliced tree is perfectly clean, smooth one chop across the tree then congrats you did it! We think you just need to hit the tree perfectly in the middle? Its not fully understood, but from what Ive seen everyone needs to get real close to the tree and hit it in the middle.

Yeah...seems like I can only do it when I'm not trying to. It's happened before but I thought maybe I had already chopped the tree once without realizing it. This time I knew for sure something strange had happened, and my opponent was also caught off guard and got killed by the tree.

 

[Shinuto]

why does his slingshot have knockback on a far hit, close initial hits I understand but its too safe...that's a lot of Villager's moveset..too safe. rockets can be spammed to make wall. bowling ball is too fast. recovery is waaaay too good and his f-air and b-air are too good in that they are projectile aerials that are quick and with knockback this character NEEDS nerfs...and some buffs to cover said nerfs...but the stuff that needs nerfing is just dumb.