I am horrible at Marth dittos

[hoopspr226]

I am horrible at Marth dittos.

I am a Marth main, and spend most of my time practicing Marth. However, one day my friend decided to pick up Marth as well, and we played a few ditto matches. I went into it expecting to crush him, because while we are on the same level level overall, he is a Falco main and very rarely uses Marth. However, I somehow ended up losing 3/4 matches. It was incredibly disheartening and baffling at the same time. I have no idea why I am so bad at Marth dittos.

I can attribute some of this to the fact that he has a lot of experience playing against Marths (from all our Marth vs. Falco matches), while I have little to no experience fighting against Marths. However, I don't think that should make that big of a difference; I should still be winning with relative ease shouldn't I?

Can anyone shed any light on why this is happening/offer some advice? Has anyone experienced anything similar themselves?

To clarify, I am a mid-high level player (fluent wavedasher, inconsistent SHFFLer, capable of occasional ken combos)

 

[Cosmo!]

do this more :D :D :D (starting at low%)
fthrow -> grab -> punch -> uthrow -> utilt -> ****

 

[hoopspr226]

I'm pretty sure that Marth can't chaingrab another Marth (fthrow -> grab doesn't work). Also, I don't think uthrow -> utilt would work except at maybe like <10%

 

[takieddine]

Johns .

 

[Cosmo!]

I'm pretty sure that Marth can't chaingrab another Marth (fthrow -> grab doesn't work). Also, I don't think uthrow -> utilt would work except at maybe like <10%

this is why you're bad at marth dittos. lolz

fthrow grab works at low%

u punch em so they have time to remember to DI away from you, fearing the fsmash out of fthrow, INSTEAD you uthrow while they DI away and it makes them go right into your first utilt, sometimes you can fit in 2 utilts but you judge it by the situation

leads into a lot of aerials and can lead to death from a 0% grab.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I don't main marth but I experienced something similar when I was a weaker Fox player. My pal is a Falco user, and not even a good one at that. But once we played a Fox ditto just because he felt like it, and I ended up getting pwned even tho Fox was my main.

One reason why you lost that day may be that you are pressured to win because you have something to prove while your friend has nothing to lose, so maybe he just was more relaxed. That can often turn a battle in one's favor, just by staying cool-headed.

You are on the right track in thinking that he has an advantage of sorts because he is used to playing your marth, but I think more significant, as you said, is that you are unfamiliar with how to handle marth as an opponent. A marth user can easily be surprised by the range and power of tippers when in opposing hands, such a thing that wouldn't merit attention when it is you who are doing the spacing and tipping because you would have the advantage; in other words, against a non-marth player, you wouldn't have to watch out for his/her spacing as avidly as against marth. Worrying both about your position and your opponent's is a very tricky thing indeed, especially in the middle of an intense last stock etc.

I would advise practicing combos against a Marth CPU in Vs. Mode just to get a good grasp on what you can do. Then, as far as reading the other guy, I'd just try to take the same tactics that you employ and apply them to him. You can vicariously read him because you can almost pretend that you are playing with him and determine what you would do in his place.

Anyway, I hope this reply is of some help to you. Good luck!

 

[Atacusbebop123]

Also how do you practice?

DO NOT play level 9's because no human plays like that

play level 1 and 4 because they consistently DI

 

[hoopspr226]

@ ChivalRuse: Thanks for your comments. I found them pretty helpful.

@ Atacus... I generally do not bother with computers at all. I generally practice against 3 of my friends who are on my level. I can see where there would be value in practicing against CPUs but I just find it far too boring and monotonous to do for more than 20 minutes.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Space better, shffl more consistently.

That's really all I can say unless you upload a video or something.

 

[KirbyKaze]

marth dittos are stupid.

you lose so much of your normal safety.

normally marth spacing is built on the idea that with proper spacing you can't get punished for some stuff but in the ditto all that goes straight to hell. whenever he's in range, you're also in range. add all the homoerotic combos that can ensue and how **** marth edgeguarding is on another marth and it's like whoa gay.

but yeah just dd to grab and then just combo/tech chase from there. for edgeguarding if he goes low just dropping off the ledge into bair or double jump bair wrecks most of his recovery options.

 

[ArcNatural]

marth dittos are stupid.

you lose so much of your normal safety.

normally marth spacing is built on the idea that with proper spacing you can't get punished for some stuff but in the ditto all that goes straight to hell. whenever he's in range, you're also in range. add all the homoerotic combos that can ensue and how **** marth edgeguarding is on another marth and it's like whoa gay.

but yeah just dd to grab and then just combo/tech chase from there. for edgeguarding if he goes low just dropping off the ledge into bair or double jump bair wrecks most of his recovery options.

Quoted for truth.

Marth dittoes are much different because all of a sudden all your effort on spacing is under a microscope. He has the same range as you, any predictable shffl approaches get easily fsmashed or ftilted. CC to grab, dash dancing to grabs or dtilts and ftilt come more into play. And if you haven't started wavedashing out of shield, this is certainly the matchup to learn how to do it. Punishing Fsmash spammage this way helps a ton.

 

[Oshron]

im still a noob here and have only my brother to practice against, so my only suggestion is to try to out-maneuver him. if the guy is unfamiliar with marth, then the best bet is to hope he doesnt know marth's strength--aerial attacks, from what i understand--and try to beat him in that respect. im personally trying to get more adjusted to that so that i can beat my brother more often, who almost always fights me with link

 

[I.B]

F-throw chaingrab works from 0-6%

U-tilt Marth at 10 - 12% (I find 11% to be the best because it's almost always a tipped U-tilt) after the U-throw. Then just combo with tipped fairs.

You can also punish poorly spaced f-airs by CCing into grab, Up-b, d-tilt, f-smash, etc.

At mid percents f-throw and depending on their di, you can chase with dash attack then proceed to combo them with fairs.

CC as much as you can

Edge guard with bairs

 

[Retroking2000]

just watch ken vs azen . you will see whats expected in that matchup
btw that matchup is all about grabs

 

[Stewie1288]

Personally, when fighting against any decent Marth it all comes down to spacing and punishment. You HAVE to make him miss attacks. When playing any other character you can simply out-prioritze a lot. Against other Marths you have to constantly remind yourself that his range is just as good as yours. I wouldn't recommend playing conservatively, but play cautiously. Marth on Marth edgeguarding is ****. Stay on the stage at all costs.

 

[slartibartfast42]

I have this same problem, except with all characters that have equal or better spacing than my marth. So pretty much my marth can't play any Ganondorfs or Marths for crap.

This topic has helped me a bit.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

i used to have problem with dittos too.

Normaly the more campy marth winz(due to the fact that math has more option there)also dont try to egde guard a marth since well he can stagespike you.


Marth is bad vs ganon????

 

[slartibartfast42]

Yes, Marth is bad vs Ganon. If you look at phanna's matchup chart, you'll see that Marth has only 4 matchups that are rated less than a 6. Sheik is a 3, Marth is a 5 of course, Falco is a 5, and Ganondorf is a 5. So ganondorf is in marth's 4 worst matchups. Considering ganondorf is so much lower on the tier list, having an even matchup with marth means he's got stuff that gives marth problems.

I personally do better against sheik and falco than I do against Ganondorf and Marth. I rely on out-ranging my opponent too much, my spacing needs work.

 

[Europhoria]

Pffft, Marth isn't bad vs. Ganon. Phanna's chart also says Kirby does well vs. Sheik among other things.
You probably do worse vs. Ganon because you haven't played the match up a hundred times like vs. the other top tiers and you think it'll be easy so you rush in.

IMO the 4 characters that do best vs. Marth are Sheik, Falcon, Fox, Falco (maybe in that order?)

 

[slartibartfast42]

Pffft, Marth isn't bad vs. Ganon. Phanna's chart also says Kirby does well vs. Sheik among other things.
You probably do worse vs. Ganon because you haven't played the match up a hundred times like vs. the other top tiers and you think it'll be easy so you rush in.

IMO the 4 characters that do best vs. Marth are Sheik, Falcon, Fox, Falco (maybe in that order?)

My main friend that I play smash with plays ganon......

I've probably played that matchup more than any other. :/

And for some reason I still suck at it.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Marth is even with Fox, Falco and Ganondorf, according to Mew2King and others. Sheik and Falcon have advantages against him, supposedly.

 

[puckgood]

Jeez, I have the exact same problem as Slartibartfast (Love that series, btw). My friend mains Roy, but when he plays Marth or Ganondorf it's WAY tougher. I only play Marth, ocaasionally trying the other top teirs. I don't know what it is with Ganondorf, though..... I should probably sidestep his big attacks and then punish?

Woah. Are you saying that Ganondorf is high tier?

 

[cF=)]

puckgood, I'm a ganon player and I love slaying marths. It's seriously an easy matchup for a big fat guy who only has to hit you twice or thrice, edgeguard you with the reverse uair and you're dead. To avoid suck thing, spam in an extremely fast manner spaced Nair, if one enters, you wavedash to jab (for example), and then you can grab and start a combo. Try to stay under him as much as possible and juggle ganon with Uairs and Utilt. To finish it off, fthrow to fsmash and edgeguard with the Bair.

 

[GI Josh]

much like kirbykaze said, Marth dittos are vastly different from marth vs. falco. With falco what you have to do is avoid the lasers and outspace him. Since Marth has no projectiles you don't have to worry about that, but you can't outspace him, his weaknesses are your weaknesses as well. If you do find yourself off the stage, and the other marth isn't trying to edgehog, SWEETSPOT AT ALL COSTS, failure in doing so could cause tipper sending you to your death. That's all I can think off at the moment

 

[slartibartfast42]

Thanks for the advice cF=)!

Try to stay under him as much as possible and juggle ganon with Uairs and Utilt.

I usually get dair'd if I do that..... Maybe I need better spacing (my problem in the first place)

 

[puckgood]

Great advice..... the thing is, the person I fight probably wouldn't know a reverse uair if it bit him in very painful places. However, I'll bear that in mind; I'll just need to get my wavedashing up to scratch Thank you very much.

 

[2-Tone]

My friend mains Ganon and for awhile I had a pretty big problem fighting him. You can do some mean things to a Ganon with marth if you try hard enough. But since you sound guys sound kind of new to it, just play as gay as possible. Edgeguard with Fsmash and dtilt and juggle repeatedly with utilt. Soon, you'll be able to tell when that wretched fair is coming and counter with a nice flurry of attacks.
Against Ganon, the biggest threat is dthrow>uair. Marth cannot escape this easily and if the ganon is smart that will be his main strategy against marth.
Before anyone accuses me of being a know-it-all you should know even I still have some trouble with this match. Also, don't be upset if you lose to a noob marth in a ditto when you know you're better. Marth dittos are all gay and inherently frustrating simply because you auto-space for your opponent and if you miss, you're getting hit back. Just be patient and play defensively until you get used to the pace of the fight and can guess your opponent's next move.

Hope that helped.

 

[KirbyKaze]

ganon vs marth

space sh autocancel n-air.

if he attacks your shield with an aerial you can almost on reflex expect a jab and if not you're too far to punish with anything anyways. just roll away if he attacks your shield or wd back out of shield. maybe retreat nair/fair but don't try to punish it unless his spacing is awful (like, really awful).

some people angle their shields down in shield to try and cc attacks if they go through the shield (like link's nair or something) into grab or whatever; this is useless and futile against ganon you can't cc anything he does except like d-tilt

space sh ff autocancel n-air. since he can't go through it, he'll be forced to go over it, at which point you dash dance and then grab him or jump after him if you call it and then start to f-air him, probably into some stupid combo.

dash dance into grab a lot, his aerials are all laggy and if he comes at you from the ground you can shut him down with a whole bunch of stuff pretty easily (n-air, d-tilt, etc).

edgeguarding him is easy so w/e. d-tilt, b-air, and if they can't tech then f-smash is pretty good. ledgehopped spike and b-air are ridiculously fantastic if he's low, otherwise just keep hitting him off with moves, mostly f-smash, b-air, and whatever else is appropriate really.

 

[Gian]

To clarify, I am a mid-high level player (fluent wavedasher, inconsistent SHFFLer, capable of occasional ken combos)

ill calify that as mid player , and actualy my friend who plays fox picked marth one time and he can win against me that was also dishearting for me. I never play marth ditos neighter ( i have no1 to play with) but mmm few advices.. forward chain grab to Fsmash (if he doest know the DI to get away, or f chaingrab to d-fair to ken como on the edge, watch your spacing, mmm always something i use is shl nairs (no fast fall to get on ther back, many times theyll try to grab... sweetspot fair to d-tilt to grab (even if they shiesld shield stunn will make u be able to d-tilt)....when you fair him when his at low % dont try to fair again cuz hell recover and fair you try to fast fall uair and keep the combo, 0-10% up throw to u tilt to whatever... im teling you im not great on marth ditos thats what makes me 2nd best marth around here =( (pro mexican player). something else if he chain grab you (forward) Di to him the first like 2 throws then DI away and down so he cant fsmash you.

 

[ynnek123]

What everyone else said lol, spacing is really important here. Also, if you can't SHFFL every one of your moves every time you attempt to, you can't consider yourself mid/ high, lol. SHFFL is one of the most important, if not the most important technique to get down perfectly in this game

 

[HiIH]

I watch too many marth dittos around here -_-.

If a Marth Di's the fthrow right, which is pretty difficult as you have you be perfect, they won't get grabbed again, but anytime you can regrab a marth, you can fsmash tip him. try it next to the edge. Fthrow to Fsmash=tipped

I'm also betting your friend doesn't know marth's EXACT sweetspot range. Forget the Fsmash, counter his ***.

Also, bairing a Marth when he tries to come back in low works wonders. NO HORIZONTAL MOVEMENT AT ALL!

 

[SHDW23]

it seems to me that in marth dittos the best mindgames and/or spacing wins the match. if you can't win with one, use the other

 

[2-Tone]

it seems to me that in marth dittos the best mindgames and/or spacing wins the match. if you can't win with one, use the other

That is quite the egotistical remark. You've taken the whole science of Marth dittos and condensed it into that? It's much more complex and logical than you put it. And you use the term mindgames so lightly as if it were just a button on the controller. You can't simply USE one or the other.

The way you put it is the equivalent of saying "Don't get hit", it's just not that simple. Marth dittos are won with patience. Mindgames are not the same and are very different situation depending. I will admit that mindgames are essential for most matches and the win is usually accredited to them, but when you autospace for your opponent it gives them every one of your own options, thus the mindgame is negated.

The reason Marth dittos are so frustrating is because at any time, you can be knocked out of your combo into a vulnerable position and get comboed yourself. Most of the time, but not all of the time, the most defensive Marth will win. The reason being is because the best approaches for Marth are aerial and, like every good Marth player knows, he is quite vulnerable in the air. Also like every good Marth player knows, an opponent in the air above Marth is an easy target. So while that aggressive Marth is flying in with a SHFFL'd fair, especially if their spacing's off, the defensive Marth is ready with a WD back-fsmash, shield-grab or an aerial of his own. And also, just about any ground approach can be shield-grabbed or CC'ed, so once again, the aggressive Marth takes a fsmash to the face or a uthrow-utilt-combo-combo-combo at low percents.

Sry for the long post but, I'd figure I'd say a bit more. And SHDW23, I'm not putting you down or anything, I just go insane when someone tries to simplify a really tough match-up. No bad blood, son.

 

[SHDW23]

no offense taken, i did put it a little lightly. i meant, like you said, that playing a good defensive game is important in marth dittos. let me expand: because the characters share the exact same moves if you can space your moves better than your opponent you're going to get hit less and do better, period. but if your opponent is spacing better than you, then you can dash dance and wavedash (away) and the like to throw off their spacing. because this is a marth ditto you don't have to worry about projectiles messing with dash dancing. i don't see "autospacing" as an issue (unless you're playing a mindreader) because it's highly unlikely that both people are going to use the exact same attack, and if they don't the ranges will be different. in other words, having good spacing is never detrimental. as to being comboed out of your combo, that could happen against any good player, marth ditto or not.

 

[2-Tone]

yes, you can get hit into a combo by getting hit out of your own in any match, however, this happens more frequently thanks to Marth's quick hit recovery and the fact that most marth's will throw out that fair faster than you can. The reason they get it out faster than you is the simple fact that you are trying to space your fair to continue a combo, while they could care less about spacing at that point and more about hitting you away so they can touch solid ground and reset their approach.

And yes, it is obvious that the marth with better spacing will almost always beat out a berserker that can't space right. But, you have to realize that if you have the better spacing, you are spacing for your opponent at the same time. That is what I mean by autospacing. If you space far enough away to land a tipper fair, then your opponent can react fast enough to throw theirs out before yours and it will tipper as well. It boils down to the quicker button tapper gets the hit. It is very frustrating but that is the consensus. Autospacing is a key reason why Marth dittos and MarthvsGanon are tough matches. Because anytime you can hit your opponent, they can hit you. It may not be why people win these matches, but it is the reason they are tougher than others.

I know what you are trying to say, and I believe you know what you are talking about, but take it from someone who's been in these match-ups A LOT...it's not as easy as people make it out to be.

 

[SHDW23]

i understand what you are saying about autospacing, but i don't see it as a major issue unless your opponent knows what you are going to do. if everytime you SH towards them you fair, then yes they will always hit you first. but if you can keep them guessing by (for example) occasionally SH in and wavelanding back or just doing an empty SH that keeps you out of their range, then if they try to fair where you would have been you have the opening you need to get in a couple hits. that said, depending on their reaction to what you do you may need to come up with another plan, but that's always the case. and i do see what you're saying about having to put yourself inside the opponent's attack range to attack, but if you mix up your approach you'll find openings against an opponent that tries to counter you by attacking. and i'm not trying to say it is easy, there is something distinctly unnerving about playing yourself.

 

[2-Tone]

I apologize for jumping you earlier because I can see now you know a bit of what you're talking about. Like I said in a previous post, Marth dittos are gay and inconsistent in that the same combo isn't always going to work every time. You look at a match like MarthvsFox and you know the Fox player is better than the Marth player. Most likely, if not indefinitely, the Fox will walk away from the match with an extra stock. In Marth dittos, it's more uncertain which Marth will win, even if one is better than the other. Some people are just better at certain match-ups.

A perfect example would be at a recent tourney I was at. A Fox player made it to the semi-finals bracket and played another Fox/Falco player. He was REALLY good at those matches and took him to the third match of the set. I later played a friendly with the Fox player with Marth and 3, then 2-stocked him for a 2-0 set. Some people are just awesome at certain matches and completely blow at others.

But, I think our discussion has given the creator of this thread some new options and things to think about. I hope I meet you in a tourney or something one day SHDW23, and we'll see how that ditto goes.

 

[SHDW23]

i look forward to it. you are certainly right about marth dittos being unpredictable, i was looking at the ken v azen matches from the video thread and its incredible how quickly the lead could change hands.

 

[2-Tone]

Ahh, you're talking about the 3-stock comeback on Pokestadium? That was a great match. Ken just seemed a little too anxious to get a quick kill on Azen's last stock. And Azen played very, very smart. I enjoyed that match a lot.

 

[SHDW23]

that's probably the best example, but also in the set from vegas there were time when you could feel the momentum shift because of a single attack landing or missing