I actually think Toon Link is really good.

TakeTheCan

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
6
Before you call me crazy and biased, I can tell you for sure I am. Despite this, I genuinely believe Toon Link is way better in smash ultimate then in smash 4 and I can explain why. I can attribute this to the buffs to Toon Link and the changes in Smash Ultimates system itself.

First off, to buffs. Here i'll be explaining the thing that can indisputably be called buff's Toon link's walk speed has been buffed from 1.2265 → 1.288, his dash speed has been buffed from 1.7325 → 1.906, and his air speed has been buffed from 0.94 → 1.05. Bair and Uair have been buffed, which is something that directly increases Toon Link's kill and combo potential. Despite these, I feel the most important buff given to Toon Link is his bomb. Toon Link's bomb pull out animation has been changed from 39 frames → 36 frames. Although this may not sound overpowered, for a character that relies on his bombs for most of his combos and edge guarding this buff is crazy. Oh yea, he can Z drop his bombs while holding the hookshot. That adds new tech to a character that already relied on tech.

Toon Link also has some changes that I feel are good overall, but not straight buffs. I feel the largest one is the changes to Toon Link's recovery. Toon Link cannot cancel his airdodge into his hookshot, hurting his recovery options. Despite this, Toon Link's actual recovery was buffed greatly. His spin attack now has multiple hitbox's behind him, and allows toon link to keep more horizontal drift. This changes off stages options from recover to kill, which I like. His spin attack also does more damage, has startup lag, hit's opponents horizontally, and always knocks opponents in the direction Toon Link is facing, making another kill option. I don't feel this is the only way Toon Link can murderize his opponents.

Toon Link smash attacks are better. They haven't been given straight buffs. They definitely haven't been given straight buffs. Toon Link's forward smash. Toon Link's down smash can't send opponents backwards, but it's end lag has been reduced from 50 frames → 46 frames, does more damage, and can kill on both sides. Toon Links up smash hasn't been changed from having 11-17 → 11-13 active frames, but it no longer has a late or sourspot. Toon link's bread and butter forward smash was the most significantly changed, but I feel it was buffed. Forward Smash has more startup frames 15 frames → 16, has decreased damage 21% → 14%, and now only has one swing. Despite this, it has been given more vertical movement, and also has the consistency of having a single hit. Although Sakurai hasn't made Toon Link a new cloud of killing, he can consistently kill now. The fairy boy can now consistently kill you in more ways then weapons he has in his arsenal.

Now to the good stuff. Toon Link was made for Smash Ultimate. Toon Link can combo you to Termina, and you may not survive even with a fairy in a bottle. He wasn't mid tier in ultimate due to his kill potential, but due to his combo game. Now imagine a tiny elf boy running towards you with a bomb. Your shield isn't as strong so you can't rely on that as heavily. Despite this, you know if he bombs you, he's going to combo you into the air and now you can only air dodge once. You also know this kid can now kill more easily in the air, kill on the ground, kill off the stage, and run away from everything you do. Sure everybody's faster, but not many people can Legolas quick shot you into a bomb combo that is sure to do damage. A air combo character in a game where air dodges were nerfed. Yea....

Toon link did get some nerfs though. His grab endlag has been reduced from 62 → 51 (standing), frame 72 → 60 (dash), frame 72 → 55 (pivot), but his item throw lag has been reduced 20 → 24, back: 20 → 24, up: 20 → 23, down: 19 → 20.) This effectively erases the improved grab due to his reliance on item throws. Despite this, he can kill more easily, more consistently, edge guard more easily, combo better due to Smash Ultimate's mechanics, and run away better then the other Link's.

Either way, i'm biased and crazy, so i'd love to hear your opinions about Toon Link.
 
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ALongWistfulSquiggle

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 31, 2018
Messages
325
Without playing the game yet, my opinion probably isn't worth as much, but there are some things I've noticed about Toon Link that I suppose could play into his viability. One, which you've stated, is that his back-air has been buffed. I see the change differently, though. His back-air was changed to be closer to Brawl, but with more knockback growth (I think). So at low and mid percents Toon Link is given an aerial that combos normally without janky stuff. That helps his damage output a lot, since he can reliably connect multiple hits after an up-tilt and stay in advantage longer.

Another move to note is his nair. It actually attempts to link into itself now, and I'm not sure what that does to his game plan, if anything. In smash 4 I used it as a retreating shield poke quite often, and it should still work in that capacity, but on hit it will be weird. Your opponent will move toward Toon Link in that instance. That's really dangerous if he lands with the first hit unless it combos into something like up-air. I really hope it does or Toon Link will be a sitting duck against quick nairs.

His projectile game this time around is really interesting. Bombs seem slightly less useful in Ultimate. Not bad, just not the amazing duct tape of his kit that it was in smash 4. Knockback seems to vary more, probably from knockback growth, just like his back-air. He now has to deal with bomb knockback going in different directions depending on proximity and angle (not that big of a deal on its own) as well as going different distances based on percent. The same follow-ups won't work every time, or will at least become tighter input-wise. I've also heard that bomb juggles still exist, but are less flexible. New tech could negate this, but it's worth noting. In the meantime Toon Link's other projectiles are picking up the slack. His arrows, like Young Link's, have less recovery and auto-cancel on shorthop. While not as powerful an individual tool as Young Link's Arrows, Toon Link's work well with the rest of his kit and should have a much stronger use in Ultimate than in Smash 4, where they were easily the weakest projectile Toon Link had. Boomerang is also very nice, becoming a better combo tool in Ultimate through better throwing angles and, from what I can tell, better knockback angles and possibly stun or shorter startup on the boomerang itself. Something works better. Both boomerang and arrows look as though they're better and with less commitment than bombs, lessening Toon Link's reliance on bombs to get things done. It's the same story as with every other character. The best moves got nerfed while the rest were made better to compensate.

I feel like I should address the frame data changes, though I don't have any personal experience to say definitively if I'm right about this. The thing is that Ultimate is a faster game than Smash 4. Everyone runs faster, everyone has reduced lag on at least some of their moves, and most of the cast, as a result, have improved significantly because of it. A few frames shaved off of bomb pulls is, quite honestly, necessary for bombs to be worth using. They could be risky in Smash 4 and with the entire cast being able to approach faster, bombs are inherently even riskier. So those frames pull the move back toward its Smash 4 risk more than they buff the move. Forward Smash is interesting and I would think how good it is depends on how safe it is on shield and how much end lag the move has. Some moves, like Ganon's old up-smash, are good because they are hard to punish. I'm just curious about this one.

Overall, I think Toon Link is a more complete, improved character from Smash 4 in terms of moveset design. His attacks all have good purpose in his gameplay, distancing him more from being bomb the character (I'm exaggerating a bit, but bombs were his strongest tool, and as much as I love them it's probably good to diversify). From what I can tell, he's probably the best mid-range zoner aside from the Belmonts and has better tools up close and a better recovery. I don't think he'll place much differently in competitive circles than he did in Smash 4, though, to be honest with you. He's ignored by a lot of the competitive community, partly because he takes work to play at that level, but also because of his art design for some reason.
 

TakeTheCan

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
6
"distancing him more from being bomb the character"

That is the best description of Smash 4 Toon Link you could give. Him not being used by the competitive community isn't stopping me from being excited as a toon link main in the slightest. I wanted a solid projectile user, and now I have one.
 

adamotero

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
1
I found this post really helpful. How did you find the frame data on his moves?
 

TakeTheCan

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
6
I'm not gonna lie, I found the frame data on the Toon Link (SSBU) of ssbwiki. Despite this, I do know Toon Link better then any other character, and i've been finding him really fun to play. It feels really great to connect a bomb and a boomerang into a smash attack/aerial when their coming on stage, and I think people are going to find a lot of cool new tech with him. The new boomerang options make that possible. I'm also finding combos easier. I'm quite happy with the bomb drop into Dair into Uair that i found, and although it's probably not new or a true combo, I'm finding the game engine makes combos like that safer and more effective. I haven't been this excited to test out a new character for a while.

If you want the link to my copy and paste data, here it is. Use it as you wish.
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Toon_Link_(SSBU)
(Despite these claims, don't expect Toon Link to be top tier. I think he's really great, but i'm not exactly an expert.)
 
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Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
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Dec 8, 2004
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24,385
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
Toon Link is easily best Link. He's always been, but now Young Link is back again and Adult Link revamped, he got some challenges. I say let him be sleeped on, all in the favor for those who play him. I am having tons of fun with him, even if I miss the old F Smash.
 

Artmastercorey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Messages
399
The more I play young link and toonlink the more Im starting to feel toonlink is just as fast in many regards. Also I find it so much easier to get kills with toon. Young link I feel gets gimped alot easier because he gets tossed off stage so far. Also I toons grab game feels better somehow, like his pummels are even quicker I believe. Like the creator of the thread said, toon is really good. Underrated maybe.
 
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ZeGreatSl3uth

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 26, 2019
Messages
1
The more I play young link and toonlink the more Im starting to feel toonlink is just as fast in many regards. Also I find it so much easier to get kills with toon. Young link I feel gets gimped alot easier because he gets tossed off stage so far. Also I toons grab game feels better somehow, like his pummels are even quicker I believe. Like the creator of the thread said, toon is really good. Underrated maybe.
Toon Link is actually faster on the ground and in the air compared to other Link's, he's the floatiest and is in between in terms of weight.
 
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