Hypothetical Move-set for Ganondorf

[Mr. Mediocre]

Here we are.

We know him, we love him, it's the King of Darkness. He's really fun to play, destroying your opponents with a few neutral wins and a read or two thrown in the mix. As long as you're not being camped out, zoned out, gimped at obscenely low percents and so forth, you're always going to have a fun time with him. However, his move-set is pretty awful (outside of the aforementioned weaknesses). Even though it displays power like nobody's business, it reeks of Captain Falcon, with only minimum attempts given to grant him unique moves. Having succumbed to the Ganon propaganda, I'd like to see a more unique move-set for Ganondorf.

Now, nearly all of these ideas are shamelessly stolen from the Zelda series and other creators who have tread the Ganondorf redesign ground. They will be attributed accordingly.

And finally, I'll lay the framework for why I've compiled these moves in particular for this hypothetical move-set; I like most of his moves as is, though some could be reanimated to make them more distinct from Captain Falcon. I'll try to keep the parts of his current kit I like, while introducing canonical references and appropriate moves that address his most egregious problems, such as his recovery and anti-zoning capability. These ideas will constitute an in-between of completely rebuilding Ganondorf and tweaking his existing design in Smash.

Don't expect any concrete numbers for damage, knockback, etc. because I'd rather balance those things if the move-set actually existed and could be play tested. One, I'm the last person who would have a clue how to balance Smash characters, and two, this all has a nearly zero chance of happening because I'm incapable of making this a reality, and don't expect it to become one via someone else. This is just a mental exercise to express my thoughts regarding redesigning Ganondorf after thinking about it alone for a long time.

Also, apologies for no visual references, my computer is being dumb in this regard:

Jab - Cape Flip

His current jab, Thunder Punch, is a decent poke and shield pressure tool, but not spectacular (as most jabs are). To shift things up, we're replacing it with the cape flip he uses in the Dead Man's Volley in Ocarina of Time. It'll be comparable to Thunder punch in damage and knockback, though it will have a taller hitbox with less range. Of course, that hitbox will have a reflecting property attached to it, with the addition of another feature:

When you perform a forward smash with a Home Run Bat, you have an extremely long wind-up animation before you throw out the devastating attack. However, it reflects projectiles in Ultimate, and if a projectile comes along while you're charging, the wind-up animation is immediately cancelled into the swing, which will reflect the projectile and one-hit KO any unfortunate soul who got hit by the bat. In a similar vein, this new jab will already have decent frame data by Ganondorf standards, but if it reflects a projectile during the attack, it will have reduced end lag. This way, it could more easily engage in standoffs with both parties reflecting projectiles back and forth until one side breaks.

Forward Tilt - Piercing Kick

His current f-tilt, unofficially referred to as the Sparta Kick, will not be going anywhere. Already a solid reference to Twilight Princess (and the 2000 Spaceworld tech demo), as well as being super satisfying to land, it gets my approval to continue spiking my enemies from center stage.

Down Tilt - Dark Sweep

The d-tilt now, Leg Sweep, isn't particularly spectacular. It may be distinct from Falcon's, but that's about the only thing going for it.

Here, I'm pulling an idea from AndYetNoBananas, a YouTuber who offered several other ideas on a new moveset. They're suggestion here was having Ganondorf backhand the ground in front of him from his crouching position, kicking up earth in the process. While they didn't suggest the inspiration (besides Ganondorf backhanding his opponents feeling appropriate), I was reminded of a cutscene in Wind Waker where Ganondorf leans down and backhands Link during their confrontation in the Forsaken Fortress, where he declares the Master Sword lacks the power to defeat him.

Of course, I don't quite see this new move outreach Leg Sweep, but we could compensate elsewhere if needed, like making the knockback angles uniformly vertical as opposed to its current hitboxes.

Up Tilt - Iron Kick

Unfortunately for Volcano Kick, it will no longer burden the u-tilt slot, terrorizing us with the possibility of mis-inputs and lack of an anti-air u-tilt. In its place, we're kicking it old school with Ganondorf's old u-smash from Brawl and Sm4sh. Think of that u-smash, without charging it, with possible tweaks in power and frame data, and we've got an actual move here rather than the joke Volcano Kick is.

Dash Attack - Demon Charge

Going to be honest, the Iron Shoulder really calls to me. It has power behind it, feels well-suited to Ganondorf, and has versatility in both its sweet-spot and sour-spot.

The original idea was to try to transplant that idea onto the charge attack Demise uses in Skyward Sword: he'd lunge forward, swing his sword in front of him, while still maintaining a little movement after the attack. That way, we'd attach a sweet-spot to the sword, which would add a disjoint to his dash attack, while keeping the sour-spot to the rest of his body, which would maintain the Iron Shoulder's late-hit combo potential. While I kind of like this idea, it seems kind of haphazard, might not work in execution, and if it did risks making the move feel much less fun to use. As such, we're basically keeping the move as is, though it might have additional particle effects to fit the name better (renamed so it didn't share the same adjective with Iron Kick).

Forward Smash - Mountain Cleaver

Well, well, well, looks like his Forward Smash is staying the same, right? Well, there's a little more to that. At first, I was going to add the attack he does in Twilight Princess, where in the 4th phase of the final boss fight, he will throw out an elbow, followed with a wide sword slash. This seemed perfect for a new f-smash, and I was totally on board with sacrificing the Doriyah's legendary hitbox for this move.

Then, everything changed when MockRock posted.

On his second channel, he posted a video ranking the f-smash animations in Ultimate, where he outlined the pros and cons of Ganondorf's along with the cast. The big issue, of course, was that this smash attack was a derivative of Ike. Goes to show how even when changing his moves, his smash attacks went from Falcon rip-offs to Ike and Cloud rip-offs. So, listening to this, I totally agreed with everything and should've left it at that.

Instead, it made me think of how with a few tweaks, this move could transcend the Ike rip-off label and feel like a Ganondorf move in the same way that his dash attack and dair feel better on him than on Captain Falcon (citation needed). Towards that end, I think by tinkering the sound to give a more crushing sound than a slashing sound when it hits and animating the sword to embed into the ground at the end, which would send earth particles flying not unlike Sephiroth's d-smash, the move would feel much more satisfying than it already is. That way, it can better impart its impact and purpose, including the part where it can hit below the ledge. Honestly, how the move looks now already gives off the impression that this is what it should be doing, so those simple changes would be enough for me (It also helps that Ganondorf basically uses this kind of attack in Tears of the Kingdom, and the sword slash part of the Twilight Princess move is represented in his forward smash using a battering item, such as the Fire Bar and Killing Edge).

Down Smash - Gloom Breach

Confession Time: I hate the Linked Strikes. Whether it was his Falcon or Cloud d-smash rip-off, I've hated it. It's a little satisfying to land, and I do think it's under-rated, but I've never had an affinity for it, and would rather see anything else here than this abomination. To that end, Ganondorf's going to take his sword, and plunge it into the stage, which sends a shockwave of gloom out into both directions. Originally, this was merely a cool animation I wanted Ganondorf to use, that would vaguely imply the Breach of Demise, but then he uses this exact attack in Tears of the Kingdom (replaced malice with gloom). So, we can have one solid hit rather than two hits linking into one another. The knockback and damage would probably need to be toned down, and we'd also add a hitbox to the sword itself, which could extend below ledges and platforms. I'm picturing that hitbox to be a spike, but that's still undecided. I also see this move taking u-smash's shield breaking potential, more in line with several other d-smashes.

Up Smash - Skyward Surge

His present u-smash, Heaven Slayer, is a fun move to use. I may not use the u-smash ledge cancels MGK demonstrates, nor get that many shield breaks with it, but its shear coverage is a sight to behold. However, I think Demise can offer some inspiration here. In his boss fight, when you go into the 2nd phase, he'll begin to use the same technique you use, the Skyward Strike. During the rest of the fight, he'll have lightning strike his sword, charging it up for electrocuting you, or throwing it as a projectile. However, we'll be using Super Smash Bros Crusade's version of the move, where it strikes his sword and sends a surge of electricity around him. Unlike Crusade, we'll have the chamber animation keep his arm retracted, before he thrusts his sword skyward, which then gets struck by lightning, giving a better sense of power. Because he'll thrust his sword into the air, the sword will have a hitbox separate from the surge of energy. The electric surge will be the sour spot, it'll cover the same area as Heaven Slayer, and maintain its ledge cancel potential. Towards that end, it might have more shield pushback than it currently does. The new sword hitbox would be like trying to land Hero's u-smash and would be a devastating sweet spot to connect. A special animation would play if he managed to land that sweet spot, where it lingers on Ganondorf impaling his opponent with the blue screen effect before the lightning strikes to deliver a devastating combo.

Neutral Air - Ring of Fire

I have mixed feelings about his nair. Whirlwind Formation is his best move on his kit, having power, range, and a long-lasting hitbox nearly perfect for his neutral, advantage, and disadvantage states. It's not a bad move to hit, and it almost gaslights you into thinking it fits Ganondorf's personality. However, I think it's the most egregious of his Falcon aerials, and it still has nagging issues that keep it from shining, such as being stuck on Ganondorf and being inconsistent as a rising aerial, despite Ganondorf's atrocious jump height.

Instead, we're going back to a Link to the Past, where Ganondorf (in pig form, Ganon) twirls his trident and summons fireballs to threaten the Hero of Legend. While we're omitting the trident, Ganondorf will summon a ring of fireballs to fly around him, performing not unlike Palutena's nair. This should hopefully deal with the inconsistency issues, while still providing a massive, disjointed lingering hitbox that provides a similar performance to the Whirlwind Formation.

Forward Air - Skull Splitter

Unsurprisingly, the one unique aerial he has gets to stay. Because it's vaguely referencing the beginning of the boss fight in Ocarina of Time and his key art for the game, it suits him. The sound effects don't quite sell the power of the move to my satisfaction, but that's not the end of the world.

There is one nitpick that involves his landing animation. If you throw out fair close enough to the ground, the particle effect for the punch will come to the ground, appearing to overlap opponents, but there isn't a hitbox because Ganondorf landed. I don't know why some moves get to have landing hitboxes compared to others, but it looks like Ganondorf should hit people there. Since Ocarina of Time has Ganondorf throw his fist into the ground to set the boss arena, we should lean into that concept more and grant fair a landing hitbox that produces a similar shockwave landing onto the ground. It makes for a better reference and more cohesive animation, which I would really appreciate.

Back Air - Back Fist

This move is another Falcon move that feels in place on Ganondorf. However, while Ganondorf tries really hard to throw out that back fist, it still seems a little tame compared to its actual power, so we'll add an extra effect to remedy that. Simply, we'd include gloom to his fist, which explodes outward when he hits something, giving a feeling of magic enhancing Ganondorf's physical attack. I'd imagine the effect being similar to Ganondorf's uppercut hitbox at the end of Dark Dive, where the opponent explodes and trails darkness particles, but replacing the purple with red. Besides visual changes, bair would probably function the same, balance considerations notwithstanding.

Down Air - Thunder Drop

I think this is mandatory. Say what you will, this is one of the cleanest dairs to grace Smash Bros period. I'd go so far saying it is the best dair in the game, that its simple animation conveys a ton of power by virtue of Ganondorf's model, and the hit-lag which momentarily lingers on the impact staying just long enough to make its statement without under- or over-staying its welcome. If only Smash gave a cooler name for it (The Japanese Thunderbolt Kick doesn't quite work either. Perhaps our mere mortal words can not convey the sheer majesty of Ganondorf's dair).

Up Air - Uppercut

Speaking of good moves, Ganondorf's Backflip Kick, while generic, has mostly been pretty consistent in strength, from its role as a combo ender to the utility of the reverse hit (the Tipman). It has lost some of that potency (thanks Ultimate), but seeing people do Tipman combos or jab lock setups with Ganondorf of all characters adds real flavor to his mostly one-note kit.

But that animation really doesn't do it for me, and I was always considering how we could still incorporate the Tipman without the backflip. And then AndYetNoBananas came in clutch once again by reusing Dark Dive's uppercut hitbox in uair's place. The second I saw that, it felt like a "no duh" moment just clobbered me upside the head. The range on that hitbox makes it work perfect for an uair, and we could add a sour-spot at the end to allow for late-hit shenanigans. Aside from the knockback differences, we'd also make the sweet-spot use darkness effects, while the sour-spot would just use electric effects to further differentiate the hitboxes.

Neutral Special - Dead Man's Volley

I (probably) know what you're thinking: why is the reflect on his jab but the rest of Dead Man's Volley here? One, I wanted to simplify his neutral special; two, I wanted jab to do something interesting, and three, I think giving Ganondorf a reflector only on the ground reinforces his current playstyle of outsmarting your opponent with a few well-placed reads that a normal reflector could serve to oversimplify. Perhaps this isn't the right call, but that's my reasoning at the moment. As such, the move is pretty complicated as is, so let's get to it:

On the ground, Ganondorf charges an electric orb in one outstretched hand before throwing it straight forward along the stage. You can't store a charge, and the orb can be reflected like Dedede's Gordo. When it hits someone, it causes a stun effect like Zero Suit Samus's Paralyzer. This stun obviously goes up the more the charge has been reflected, which allows Ganondorf to use his jab for this purpose. If you opt to hold the B Button beyond the initial charge, then Ganondorf will use both hands to charge the electric orb into a massive ball of energy, reminiscent of his homing projectiles in Ocarina of Time or his fourth combo in Hyrule Warriors (Great Swords C5). After a long time has passed, he'll slam the energy ball in front of him before punching it just like he does in Hyrule Warriors, sending out several projectiles that have a weak homing effect like Ocarina of Time. Of course, if an opponent happens to be hit by that initial energy ball, they'll be hit by this move's version of the Warlock Punch. The total animation time will be worse compared to Warlock Punch, so this will almost definitely kill at zero, but will only have use in shield breaks or casual settings. I'm debating whether that energy ball would have a grab hitbox when slammed down so as to ensure opponents who dared to stand in front of that move are guaranteed to be hit by the Warlock Punch. While the idea of parrying that move sounds like a ballsy play, this also feels like the one move that would defy any attempts to subvert the Demon King's power. Naturally, that would also mean that Warlock Punch would just be straight up invincible on top of all that. Neither of those traits make it remotely competitive, but if Ganondorf doesn't have the most powerful move in the game, I'm going to riot.

Impractical, gimmick move aside, projectiles are omitted in the aerial version of the neutral special, which initiates an omni-directional float. This would be based on a fuel system that only regenerates while Ganondorf is on the stage. While I don't see it lasting more than a few seconds at best, it would massively amplify all aspects of his gameplan, especially for his off-stage presence. I have similarly debated whether Ganondorf should use projectiles in the air like the Dead Man's Volley typically does, but I've ultimately decided against it. Giving him a projectile and a reflector on the ground already gives an incentive for players to attempt projectile camping in the corner, and that doesn't fit the direction I want Ganondorf's design to go.

I also want to make the float let Ganondorf use his ground moves in the air to make it a unique movement option in the game, but that's probably going a little too far.

Side Special - Flame Choke

Surprise, surprise, one of Ganondorf's unique moves gets to stay. For real though, this is a fantastic move: from Flame Choke strings to Ganoncides, it's a fairly well-designed move. Naturally, the biggest thing is not putting Ganondorf into free fall after using Flame Choke, which should be a thing already.

Down Special - Wizard Rush

Wizard's Foot is almost a good move, but its miniscule hitbox and lackluster anti-projectile capability makes it somewhat disappointing against competent opponents. Originally inspired by Jotari's idea on redesigning Ganondorf, we're basically just using the same move, but with a trident instead of his foot. This especially works now with Tears of the Kingdom providing a move with the Gloom Spear doing this exact move in the final boss. This'll add a disjoint to the move, and we can keep the edge cancel like it does now. Where I'll differ from the idea is where Jotari has Ganondorf throw the trident down then do a Wizkick to chase it right after in the air. I'm just going to keep the ground and aerial versions play the same as Wizard's Foot does now (just with a trident), as landing the aerial version's spike is a very satisfying move to land and doesn't need to split into two hits. If the new hitbox also allows Wizard Rush to charge through more projectiles than Wizard's Foot does now, that'll be fantastic.

Up Special - Trident Throw

This is based on Ganon throwing his trident in a Link to the Past or Four Sword's Adventure. The particle effect will imitate Four Sword's Adventure, and after guiding the trident for a little bit, Ganondorf will teleport to it in an explosion of Darkness. He'll have a little leeway in how far it travels, can hit and drag opponents along the way, and he may or may not be able to act out of it like his new Flame Choke.

Throws -

Ok, now we go onto the grabs and throws, and this is where the redesign gets a little crazy, because of this one idea: super throws. TL; DR, there was one too many possible throws I wanted to incorporate, and then I thought about giving him more, so now there's four too many throws I want to use. The only vague justification I have is that they'll compensate his grab game from losing Dark Dive in his normal move-set. Please take that with a grain of salt, since that reason came after I was dead set on giving Ganondorf more than four throws.

The basic idea is to make his normal throws about on par with his normal throws now, while giving him additional throws that have power more akin to most of Ganondorf's kit.

Grab - Power Seize

Instead of the pitiful grab Ganondorf uses now, he'll use the move at the end of Ocarina of Time when he turns around and tries to seize the Triforce of Courage from Link. Simply bringing his hand up to seize you with magic lends more leeway into whatever his grab's range would be, unlike his current one.

Pummel - Waves of Darkness

The second part of the above. In addition, the pummel is how I imagine Ganondorf charging his super throws. Holding/tapping the A button to pummel, the waves of shadow damage the opponent over time. While this happens, it also causes the screen to gradually darken to convey the impending doom. After some time, Ganondorf will crackle with lightning particles, indicating a super throw can be used.

Starting with his normal throws:

Forward Throw - Sturdy Thrust

This is what his current f-throw is called, but this is based on another cutscene in Wind Waker, where Ganondorf delivers a final blow to Link before taking his Triforce piece. Since Ganondorf didn't intend to kill Link with that move, this f-throw won't be a kill throw in the strictest sense, perhaps using more base knockback and less knockback growth than his current f-throw.

Back Throw - Dark Dive

Aha, so that's where his Dark Dive went. You can picture it as Ganondorf using Dark Dive on the ground to grab an opponent, just with an animation of Ganondorf dragging them into position behind him. It might have the same kill power as Dark Dive has now, or it might have to be toned down a bit.

Down Throw - Electric Crusher

This will work just like his current d-throw, but the animation is based off the electric orb Ganondorf shoots at Young Link while he's in the middle of chasing down Princess Zelda in Ocarina of Time.

Up Throw - Fiery Assault

We've referenced Link to the Past where Ganon summons a ring of fireballs in his nair. The continuation of that attack, where the fireballs turn into Firebats and are sent flying straight towards Link is referenced here. Ganondorf will summon three of them before throwing the opponent into the air and sending the Firebats after them. Compared to his current u-throw, this would better at killing his opponents, being roughly equal with Dark Dive. Of course, it still wouldn't be amazing at killing, which is where we bring in the likes of...

Super Forward Throw - Shadow Claw

Taken from Hyrule Warriors, where after depleting an enemy's weak point gauge, Ganondorf's Weak Point Smash has him cloak his arm in darkness before swiping the enemy with the dark claws. It would basically look the same in this moveset, though the windup would be shorter to move things along.

Super Back Throw - Warlock Vault

This started off as a Dark Fists from Sm4sh, but it has morphed into something completely different now. Ganondorf would first grab his opponent with his free hand, and then proceed to leap into the air to throw them behind him with the extra power offered by an accompanying explosion of dark energy.

Super Down Throw - Grave Stamp

Taken from Delzethin's Ganondorf redesign, where he has Ganondorf's d-throw as a mighty stomp, though his leg would have dark magic sheathing his leg. I'm picturing this as a bury move, as well as being Ganondorf's most damaging throw.

Super Up Throw - Jawbreaker

This is what his current u-throw is called, and the new one looks the same too. The only difference will be the dark energy in his hand which will explode on contact as though he hit you with his dair upwards, and about as strong if not stronger.

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There we have it, all of the moves have been covered besides the Final Smash, taunts, and various other moves like get-up attacks and so forth. Those are a surprise tool that can help us later. In the meantime, here's a couple more thoughts:

1) I think some amount of armor on his smash attacks would be in order. I know armor is somewhat controversial, and this move-set might not need it, but giving some amount of armor on these attacks would give Ganondorf a better ability to call out his opponents. Why other heavyweights got a slew of armored moves while Ganondorf only has Warlock Punch (and Flame Choke during the grab, which hardly comes up at all) feels wrong.

2) Rage. Though rage has always been a little controversial in Smash, I think it's a neat comeback mechanic that just so happens to benefit heavyweights the most (unless they're gimped at 30). While I don't want Ganondorf to be a comeback character, there's a couple things I'd like to add as Ganondorf's percent climbs higher:

The biggest one regards the super throws. As they're set up now, you need to hold them for a set amount of time before super throws are online. Since the level of mashing out of a grab isn't universal, I don't want the timer to be overbearing for all but the most god-like of mashers. At the same time, it would be a waste to include super throws if they don't ever show up. As a compromise, as Ganondorf's rage/percent goes up, the timer for charging these throws goes down. That way, Ganondorf isn't very likely to super throw you unless you're both at high percents when he grabs you.

The next one is less important, but it would involve increasing the distance travelled in his special moves. Even at max rage, his float, Flame Choke, Trident Throw, and Wizard Rush wouldn't travel that much farther than their base travel distance. However, since they'd take up the same total animation time, that means they would travel a little faster at higher percentages, which could give him that little extra reach that can surprise unsuspecting opponents.

The last one might be the least impactful, but it involves his jab. Cape Flip is based on his reflect in Ocarina of Time (and a stand in for all the other reflects in Zelda), and Dead Man's Volley mostly starts with a few back and forths. As the fight progresses, and the boss loses more health, they reflect the volley more and more times against Link. To reflect this, I'd like the max damage you can reflect on Cape Flip to increase as his percent does. It's the kind of easter egg you might expect to show up in Smash, and if his jab becomes the best reflector when he gets close to max rage, that's fine in my book.

Would all of this keep Ganondorf fun to play, while addressing his weaknesses? Is this something that most people could get behind? Lend me your thoughts, so these ideas can be fleshed out more.

 

[JeniseMoffat]

Thanks for sharing it, I appreciate you.

 

[Oracle Link]

My personal opinion is that the basic attacks of ganon can Mostly stay for now! Yeah swords for all moves would be even better but as long as he gets new specials and better animations hes fine for the next couple of games!
Like give GAnons idle a cool arm crossing pose!

 

[Mr. Mediocre]

My personal opinion is that the basic attacks of ganon can Mostly stay for now! Yeah swords for all moves would be even better but as long as he gets new specials and better animations hes fine for the next couple of games!
Like give GAnons idle a cool arm crossing pose!

Right, playing Ganondorf for hundreds of hours makes most of his kit feel satisfying to use, which I tried to incorporate in the hypothetical move-set. Whether it would be successful or not is debatable, since making his kit even more broken might just break the fun we have playing the bottom-tier king.

 

[Jotari]

Don't like the uptilt change. His current up Tilt is not nearly as useless as people think. It's ability to edge guard gives it some definite niche utility. And it really is just satisfying to use. His Old Up Smash is an awkward looking attack and functionally it's main use lies mostly in its deceptively end lag that lets it work as a feint. Aside from that minor mind game, it doesn't really provide much utility he can't accomplish with his other moves.

 

[Kirbeh]

Interesting take on a Dorf update. I think it fares pretty well as a composite of the many forms he's taken over the years.

It's probably just because it's the most recent title, but I've gotten used to seeing people mostly rallying behind a purely TotK based redesign so this was a fun read.

While it'd never happen, I'm still fond of the idea of making OoT Dorf a stance change character and then having either the TP or TotK Ganondorf as a separate character. And Ganon. We have 3 Links, let me have 3 Ganondorfs.

 

[Quillion]

I'll just plug again that Ganondorf is much cooler when he's not a sword user.

 

[IKEI]

Don't like the uptilt change. His current up Tilt is not nearly as useless as people think. It's ability to edge guard gives it some definite niche utility. And it really is just satisfying to use. His Old Up Smash is an awkward looking attack and functionally it's main use lies mostly in its deceptively end lag that lets it work as a feint. Aside from that minor mind game, it doesn't really provide much utility he can't accomplish with his other moves.

it still sucks ass and it's not a reference to anything except vaguely captain falcon's utilt
A bit of change for once won't hurt

 

[Quillion]

it still sucks ass and it's not a reference to anything except vaguely captain falcon's utilt
A bit of change for once won't hurt

References being the end-all be-all of moveset design is 12-year-old BS.

It could certainly change to something like a rekka or maybe just a binary charge move, but changing it just to sneak in another reference is sheer stupidity.

 

[Jotari]

it still sucks ass and it's not a reference to anything except vaguely captain falcon's utilt
A bit of change for once won't hurt

Did you read my post? It doesn't suck ass. It's a decent move with niche but effective implementation. Changing it to his old Up Smash, also a move that Ganondorf doesn't ever do outside Smash, wouldn't do much for his moveset.

Would be nice if there was a way to cancel it a few frames in though.

 

[Mr. Mediocre]

Don't like the uptilt change. His current up Tilt is not nearly as useless as people think. It's ability to edge guard gives it some definite niche utility. And it really is just satisfying to use. His Old Up Smash is an awkward looking attack and functionally its main use lies mostly in its deceptively end lag that lets it work as a feint. Aside from that minor mind game, it doesn't really provide much utility he can't accomplish with his other moves.

Volcano Kick is niche in the way that is very rarely does more than most other moves. If this were Melee, with weaker recoveries across the board, Volcano Kick would be better (I'd make it spike, since you'd then add a meteor smash sound, even if it makes it work a tiny bit more than Captain Falcon's). As is, very few characters might need/try to recover such that the windbox will drag them into the move (Zelda using Farore's hitbox, Little Mac's Jolt Haymaker), and it ends up happening very little. Then there's lining up the full second of startup to actually hit someone. Those 60 frames aren't doing any favors in hitting people, and especially keeping you from harm if you happen to misinput it.

I think Volcano Kick and Iron Kick are both awkward looking attacks, and while I like some aspects of Volcano Kick, it's a joke move as an u-tilt. Making it a smash attack would be more appropriate than as an u-tilt. That said, I'm not fully satisfied with the u-tilt, and think that move needs more consideration.

References being the end-all be-all of moveset design is 12-year-old BS.

It could certainly change to something like a rekka or maybe just a binary charge move, but changing it just to sneak in another reference is sheer stupidity.

While some people may go at these with the idea of, "I'm going to include all these references, and then retroactively make them fit into Smash (aka, my super throws)," I fully recognize the importance of how said moves will actually fit into the game. Am I any good at intuiting that, most likely not, as this is all just the ramblings and brainstorming of a guy who likes Smash Bros and imagines how it might be better for me. Whether it would actually be better for me, or for anyone else, is beyond me.

The idea, definitely for me, is to address Ganondorf's failures in design, which may or may not use a reference from his other appearances to help relate him to his source material, while also distinguishing from Captain Falcon.

If you like Ganondorf as a heavier, slower Captain Falcon, that's okay. Given a few tweaks, I could have more fun than I do with the current Ganon. I just think if we're going to change moves to address his weaknesses, why not use moves he's done before that do the exact same thing. That's why I tried to keep a lot of his moveset functioning similarly, even though it would be animated differently and/or include more functionality in there.

 

[Jotari]

Volcano Kick is niche in the way that is very rarely does more than most other moves. If this were Melee, with weaker recoveries across the board, Volcano Kick would be better (I'd make it spike, since you'd then add a meteor smash sound, even if it makes it work a tiny bit more than Captain Falcon's). As is, very few characters might need/try to recover such that the windbox will drag them into the move (Zelda using Farore's hitbox, Little Mac's Jolt Haymaker), and it ends up happening very little. Then there's lining up the full second of startup to actually hit someone. Those 60 frames aren't doing any favors in hitting people, and especially keeping you from harm if you happen to misinput it.

I think Volcano Kick and Iron Kick are both awkward looking attacks, and while I like some aspects of Volcano Kick, it's a joke move as an u-tilt. Making it a smash attack would be more appropriate than as an u-tilt. That said, I'm not fully satisfied with the u-tilt, and think that move needs more consideration.

That's still definite utility the move has, and while recoveries are good across the board, not every single character has a great recovery, you will find yourself fighting characters with poor recoveries some times. And even characters with good recoveries can occasionally be placed in situations where scrambling for the ledge is inevitable. His old up smash really offers basically nothing that I couldn't already do with his jab or new up smash. And, if the goal is to relate him more to his source material as you say, then giving him back his old up smash as an up tilt doesn't do that at all, as he never does anything resembling his old up smash either. Finally, I like esoteric attacks like Volcano Kick. It's weird and that's cool. Smash as a fighting game has rather strange design by having all characters use the same button inputs to variations of the same moves. And that works really well for Smash, but I think a few characters deviating from it to do weirder things is nice for the game. In addition to not being functionally useful or from his games, having his old up smash as an up tilt would just make him more similar to every other character in the cast and their various up tilts that do nothing but attack in a vaguely upward direction.

 

[Quillion]

While some people may go at these with the idea of, "I'm going to include all these references, and then retroactively make them fit into Smash (aka, my super throws)," I fully recognize the importance of how said moves will actually fit into the game. Am I any good at intuiting that, most likely not, as this is all just the ramblings and brainstorming of a guy who likes Smash Bros and imagines how it might be better for me. Whether it would actually be better for me, or for anyone else, is beyond me.

The idea, definitely for me, is to address Ganondorf's failures in design, which may or may not use a reference from his other appearances to help relate him to his source material, while also distinguishing from Captain Falcon.

If you like Ganondorf as a heavier, slower Captain Falcon, that's okay. Given a few tweaks, I could have more fun than I do with the current Ganon. I just think if we're going to change moves to address his weaknesses, why not use moves he's done before that do the exact same thing. That's why I tried to keep a lot of his moveset functioning similarly, even though it would be animated differently and/or include more functionality in there.

Okay, I'll calm down now. I'm just annoyed at this point over "reference overload" in Smash moveset design (official or fanmade) and I'm trying to raise awareness.

I guess one idea that can work is what Crusade has done to Ganondorf's up-tilt as of its 0.9.5 update: he just throws out a short uppercut that can be "rekka'd" into a magical explosion. But I would change it by having the explosion be slow like it already is (and probably make the explosion a lot larger to make its hitbox more apparent), just so he has the weird slow move that folks like Jotari here want.

 

[Mr. Mediocre]

That's still definite utility the move has, and while recoveries are good across the board, not every single character has a great recovery, you will find yourself fighting characters with poor recoveries some times. And even characters with good recoveries can occasionally be placed in situations where scrambling for the ledge is inevitable. His old up smash really offers basically nothing that I couldn't already do with his jab or new up smash. And, if the goal is to relate him more to his source material as you say, then giving him back his old up smash as an up tilt doesn't do that at all, as he never does anything resembling his old up smash either. Finally, I like esoteric attacks like Volcano Kick. It's weird and that's cool. Smash as a fighting game has rather strange design by having all characters use the same button inputs to variations of the same moves. And that works really well for Smash, but I think a few characters deviating from it to do weirder things is nice for the game. In addition to not being functionally useful or from his games, having his old up smash as an up tilt would just make him more similar to every other character in the cast and their various up tilts that do nothing but attack in a vaguely upward direction.

His old u-smash would function much more like a traditional anti-air tilt, which isn't very exciting. However, it wouldn't be useless, as his current u-smash is pretty slow, and his old u-smash as a tilt would be analogous to Snake's, which is a really good move. If it were on his current kit, it would be competing against nair, but not only does nair have its own problems as a rising aerial, but he also relies on nair too much for my liking. Adding a quick, grounded anti-air would be a welcome change.

Then again, Volcano Kick is a unique move, however grotesque and awful its execution is. It's a matter of taste whether we lean on a traditional or unorthodox design for his u-tilt, one that I'm unsure which direction I want it to go for myself.

Okay, I'll calm down now. I'm just annoyed at this point over "reference overload" in Smash moveset design (official or fanmade) and I'm trying to raise awareness.

I guess one idea that can work is what Crusade has done to Ganondorf's up-tilt as of its 0.9.5 update: he just throws out a short uppercut that can be "rekka'd" into a magical explosion. But I would change it by having the explosion be slow like it already is (and probably make the explosion a lot larger to make its hitbox more apparent), just so he has the weird slow move that folks like Jotari here want.

I like that idea for his u-tilt, but it feels off for some reason, probably because it's doing two very different things for two very different scenarios. I'll think about it some more.

For Ganondorf's move-set and references, I like a lot of the flow and feel in his gameplay, and it would be trivially easy to break that feeling. Flame Choke strings, late-hit dash attack into imagination, wizkick ledge cancels, there's surprising depth to what Ganondorf can do that feels great. I could totally see a rework that only replaces a few moves while tweaking the rest.

If it were me, I'd obviously fix his weaknesses in recovery and projectiles. Sure, Wizkick gave his double jump back in Melee and the Wizard's Dropfoot custom move in Sm4sh was a good recovery tool, but I'd keep it simple by letting him act out of Flame Choke (which should already be a thing definitely) and more travel distance and control on Dark Dive. Perhaps he gets a float as a new move to enhance his offstage presence as well.

For projectiles, either let his jab reflect, let Wizkick fly through them more consistently, or both.

For others, probably just some animation tweaks, like I've offered for some of his moves. Give fair a landing hitbox with accompanying particle effects, add other effects to dash attack and f-smash, et cetera. Maybe bring u-air back to its old glory with faster start-up and more persistent Tipman; that way, the faster start-up makes it a better out-of-shield option and combo-breaker than nair, while letting it have better edgeguarding potential again. I know some people don't like the look of the backflip kick on Ganondorf, but I'd almost welcome it over his constant use of nair. He needs the nair in Ultimate, and I consider that a problem to fix, just not as much as his recovery and anti-zoning tools.

 

[Quillion]

I think if Smash is set on keeping Ganondorf slow as he is with little range except for his sword smashes, they could stand to make him a DK-type "deceptively fast" heavy, if not Bowser-type.

Melee Ganondorf feels surprisingly good with his wavedashing and other Melee mobility tech, and if they're not going to bring that back, might as well make that part of his base kit.

 

[FazDude]

I did make a Ganondorf moveset with the same "keep moves similar in spirit" mindset - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bcVQKo-5cO61kuH4WClw7IGLfaHHkfh2jLao6D3nC8I/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Jotari]

His old u-smash would function much more like a traditional anti-air tilt, which isn't very exciting. However, it wouldn't be useless, as his current u-smash is pretty slow, and his old u-smash as a tilt would be analogous to Snake's, which is a really good move. If it were on his current kit, it would be competing against nair, but not only does nair have its own problems as a rising aerial, but he also relies on nair too much for my liking. Adding a quick, grounded anti-air would be a welcome change.

Then again, Volcano Kick is a unique move, however grotesque and awful its execution is. It's a matter of taste whether we lean on a traditional or unorthodox design for his u-tilt, one that I'm unsure which direction I want it to go for myself.



I like that idea for his u-tilt, but it feels off for some reason, probably because it's doing two very different things for two very different scenarios. I'll think about it some more.

For Ganondorf's move-set and references, I like a lot of the flow and feel in his gameplay, and it would be trivially easy to break that feeling. Flame Choke strings, late-hit dash attack into imagination, wizkick ledge cancels, there's surprising depth to what Ganondorf can do that feels great. I could totally see a rework that only replaces a few moves while tweaking the rest.

If it were me, I'd obviously fix his weaknesses in recovery and projectiles. Sure, Wizkick gave his double jump back in Melee and the Wizard's Dropfoot custom move in Sm4sh was a good recovery tool, but I'd keep it simple by letting him act out of Flame Choke (which should already be a thing definitely) and more travel distance and control on Dark Dive. Perhaps he gets a float as a new move to enhance his offstage presence as well.

For projectiles, either let his jab reflect, let Wizkick fly through them more consistently, or both.

For others, probably just some animation tweaks, like I've offered for some of his moves. Give fair a landing hitbox with accompanying particle effects, add other effects to dash attack and f-smash, et cetera. Maybe bring u-air back to its old glory with faster start-up and more persistent Tipman; that way, the faster start-up makes it a better out-of-shield option and combo-breaker than nair, while letting it have better edgeguarding potential again. I know some people don't like the look of the backflip kick on Ganondorf, but I'd almost welcome it over his constant use of nair. He needs the nair in Ultimate, and I consider that a problem to fix, just not as much as his recovery and anti-zoning tools.

I think if Smash is set on keeping Ganondorf slow as he is with little range except for his sword smashes, they could stand to make him a DK-type "deceptively fast" heavy, if not Bowser-type.

Melee Ganondorf feels surprisingly good with his wavedashing and other Melee mobility tech, and if they're not going to bring that back, might as well make that part of his base kit.

I think recovery and defense against projectiles is all he really needs to be complete. Having a projectile might be nice, but resisting enemy projectiles some how would do much more to stop him being cheesed by long range spammers.

For his recovery, as said, being able to act out of Flame Choke would be so damn useful and should have been implemented as soon as they gave Fox and Falco that treatment on their Side Bs. People talk about regaining a mid air jump after Wizard's Foot and while it would be nice, I hardly think it would be a game changer. Wizard's Foot sends you downwards a lot, more so than it's introduction in Melee, I feel. What would actually help him a lot more would be regaining his extra jump off of Dark Dive. Have you ever actually hit with Dark Dive when recovering? Ganondorf is launched backwards, further from the ledge. He can use Dark Dive a second time if it connects but you're still in a pretty compromising position. Getting your midair jump back would make connecting with the attack so much more rewarding. And that should be the way the attack works, right? Ganondorf is sacrificing his enemy to save himself. Also give it some invincibility frames.

I did make a Ganondorf moveset with the same "keep moves similar in spirit" mindset - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bcVQKo-5cO61kuH4WClw7IGLfaHHkfh2jLao6D3nC8I/edit?usp=sharing

I find the attempt to merge Flame Choke with a new special a bit sloppy. Just because he'd end up joking them in the end doesn't mean it would have the same application as Flame Choke. Why not put the trident over Wizard's Foot?

 

[Quillion]

I think recovery and defense against projectiles is all he really needs to be complete. Having a projectile might be nice, but resisting enemy projectiles some how would do much more to stop him being cheesed by long range spammers.

Jump momentum is actually a much better counter to projectiles than reflectors. That's more of a universal Smash issue though.

 

[Mr. Mediocre]

I think recovery and defense against projectiles is all he really needs to be complete. Having a projectile might be nice, but resisting enemy projectiles some how would do much more to stop him being cheesed by long range spammers.

For his recovery, as said, being able to act out of Flame Choke would be so damn useful and should have been implemented as soon as they gave Fox and Falco that treatment on their Side Bs. People talk about regaining a mid air jump after Wizard's Foot and while it would be nice, I hardly think it would be a game changer. Wizard's Foot sends you downwards a lot, more so than it's introduction in Melee, I feel. What would actually help him a lot more would be regaining his extra jump off of Dark Dive. Have you ever actually hit with Dark Dive when recovering? Ganondorf is launched backwards, further from the ledge. He can use Dark Dive a second time if it connects but you're still in a pretty compromising position. Getting your midair jump back would make connecting with the attack so much more rewarding. And that should be the way the attack works, right? Ganondorf is sacrificing his enemy to save himself. Also give it some invincibility frames.

It really would complete him to have a recovery and a way to punish zoning, because his whole gameplan is around getting into the opponent's space and punishing their mistakes accordingly. Can't do that if projectile spam keeps you a mile away, and you can't have that many opportunities to get in when you die to a stiff breeze offstage.

A projectile would be neat, but a reflector or wizkick punishing the zoner if spaced well leans into that design of predicting your opponent's option and punishing them with a vengeance. That said, I still put all three in my moveset, so...

Jump momentum is actually a much better counter to projectiles than reflectors. That's more of a universal Smash issue though.

A platform fighter feature in general, where mobility is a very versatile tool. Great for most characters, but definitely an issue for heavyweights who are defined by their sluggishness. Ganon's mobility can be maintained, we just need to give him other tools to counter projectiles. Keeping him mostly based on Falcon means he has the moveset of a rushdown fighter without the mobility to support it.

 

[Mr. Mediocre]

I did make a Ganondorf moveset with the same "keep moves similar in spirit" mindset - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bcVQKo-5cO61kuH4WClw7IGLfaHHkfh2jLao6D3nC8I/edit?usp=sharing

I like several of the ideas here, some more than others:

The dash animation is what I think about for Ganondorf, I can respect the trident use (though I opted for melee, magic, trident, and sword moves in total to express the full scope of the Demon King). For alternate costumes, I'd rather we have an amalgamation of Ganondorf's to comprehensively represent all of his appearances, but that also sounds like leaving the alternate costumes as mere palette swaps, and I kind of wish we had more unique alternate skins for all Smash characters (wouldn't happen, since that would be a metric ton of dev time).

Jab has the property of turning any projectile into a Dead Man's Volley? That's certainly a unique mechanic, changing any projectile into a different one, and while that gives another limitation to his defense, it's still a reflector for his game plan.

Gave dash attack the anti-projectile use instead of wizkick; not a bad choice, I'd say.

Tilts are good, though I'm still mulling over the u-tilt. Though if it's alluding to the Gerudo Dragon, you could just go all in on that concept.

Smashes are good, though I'm still a sucker for the Mountain Cleaver, keeping it in my moveset.

Aerials are more mixed: bair's an okay direction, though I wouldn't call his current bair one of his worst moves. It's not phenomenal without the RARs that enable it as a monster in kill confirms, but it's definitely not in the same league as Volcano Kick or Warlock Punch, and definitely holds its own above the other grounded moves. Uair isn't terrible, but I guess the visual of Pit's multi-hit against your idea for a single hit isn't mixing in my head. Nair's a different issue, though; Ganondorf does need the move now, because it's by far his safest neutral option, a great advantage tool, and a decent move in disadvantage. That he has to rely on it for the entire game is something I'd rather we got away from, so I'd go for making his other moves carry some of nair's burden, so we don't have to spam it to survive.

Grab and throws are okay, definitely not like my hail mary and granting Ganondorf 4 more throws.

Specials are mixed: you kept neutral b and down b the same, though I mostly did the same for my own down special, just with a disjoint and more consistent ability to power through projectiles (mostly so it doesn't just clank with stuff like the Links' Boomerangs, which doesn't look right). I think you used the Rivals of Aether idea for his side b, which fits in very well for RoA. However, I believe Flame Choke is the right move for this slot, as long as we don't get put into free fall afterward. Up B's great, though.

I don't know whether I'd personally keep his Final Smash or change it to something else, but I wouldn't mind keeping the Ganon charge.

Overall, pretty good, some parallels with other moveset ideas, but that's to be expected. Most of us want to keep the fun and feel of Smash Ganondorf, so we'll either have similar concepts or be inspired by other people's ideas. As long as we can imagine a Ganondorf that crushes his opponents, free from the toils of his losing matchups.

 

[Jotari]

It really would complete him to have a recovery and a way to punish zoning, because his whole gameplan is around getting into the opponent's space and punishing their mistakes accordingly. Can't do that if projectile spam keeps you a mile away, and you can't have that many opportunities to get in when you die to a stiff breeze offstage.

A projectile would be neat, but a reflector or wizkick punishing the zoner if spaced well leans into that design of predicting your opponent's option and punishing them with a vengeance. That said, I still put all three in my moveset, so...



A platform fighter feature in general, where mobility is a very versatile tool. Great for most characters, but definitely an issue for heavyweights who are defined by their sluggishness. Ganon's mobility can be maintained, we just need to give him other tools to counter projectiles. Keeping him mostly based on Falcon means he has the moveset of a rushdown fighter without the mobility to support it.

Yeah, I'd have to agree. Jump momentum is certainly the best way of dealing with projectiles for most of the cast, but Ganondorf is meant to be a heavy weight. I wouldn't want him to be much faster than he is now. More speed is obviously better, but the game should have variety with characters that compensate for lack of speed with other things. So giving Ganondorf immunity to projectiles or the ability to reflect them would be more in character for him. Reflection isn't the only option, but I think people go to it because it actually is a pretty iconic part of some of his fights. FazDude's moveset above suggested putting a reflect on his jab and I think that could work. It wouldn't be the best reflector but just having it at all would force character to be more wary about sniping at him. It would however leave him completely open in the air or while trying to move at all, so I think we could also see a reflector on his Neutral Aerial too. It's the most frustrating of Ganondorf's attack because most people seem to be in agreement that it's his best move, but also is most ill fitting one. But it's only really good because of it's frame data. No one was raving about his Neutral Air in Brawl. I think I'm more willing to accept a new neutral air on him now so long as it could do the same things as his current one. And I think the most perfect neutral air would be his cape attack from Ocarina that he uses to reflect his own projectiles. Have it so it extends out wards with a deceptively large hit box, and have him launch it as quick as he does in Ocarina of Time with low landing lag and the ability to reflect projectiles and you could have a very simple looking but very useful attack.

 

[Quillion]

but Ganondorf is meant to be a heavy weight. I wouldn't want him to be much faster than he is now.

So what do you think of DK and Smash 4-on Bowser? (coming from someone who dislikes the latter)

 

[Mr. Mediocre]

Yeah, I'd have to agree. Jump momentum is certainly the best way of dealing with projectiles for most of the cast, but Ganondorf is meant to be a heavy weight. I wouldn't want him to be much faster than he is now. More speed is obviously better, but the game should have variety with characters that compensate for lack of speed with other things. So giving Ganondorf immunity to projectiles or the ability to reflect them would be more in character for him. Reflection isn't the only option, but I think people go to it because it actually is a pretty iconic part of some of his fights. FazDude's moveset above suggested putting a reflect on his jab and I think that could work. It wouldn't be the best reflector but just having it at all would force character to be more wary about sniping at him. It would however leave him completely open in the air or while trying to move at all, so I think we could also see a reflector on his Neutral Aerial too. It's the most frustrating of Ganondorf's attack because most people seem to be in agreement that it's his best move, but also is most ill fitting one. But it's only really good because of it's frame data. No one was raving about his Neutral Air in Brawl. I think I'm more willing to accept a new neutral air on him now so long as it could do the same things as his current one. And I think the most perfect neutral air would be his cape attack from Ocarina that he uses to reflect his own projectiles. Have it so it extends out wards with a deceptively large hit box, and have him launch it as quick as he does in Ocarina of Time with low landing lag and the ability to reflect projectiles and you could have a very simple looking but very useful attack.

When I was coming up with my moveset, I debated about what kind of reflector would be the most fitting for his design. While having him reflect projectiles in the air would be a direct reference to Ocarina of Time, I thought it would be better to keep his reflector grounded in his jab to reinforce his playstyle of positioning himself to crush you. Then again, his offstage presence would be enhanced if you could directly punish your opponent for trying to snipe his recovery from onstage with a projectile, regardless of how buffed his recovery was. While I'm mixed about giving Ganondorf tools that have potential to universally force players to approach him, I can see merit here.

 

[Quillion]

When I was coming up with my moveset, I debated about what kind of reflector would be the most fitting for his design. While having him reflect projectiles in the air would be a direct reference to Ocarina of Time, I thought it would be better to keep his reflector grounded in his jab to reinforce his playstyle of positioning himself to crush you. Then again, his offstage presence would be enhanced if you could directly punish your opponent for trying to snipe his recovery from onstage with a projectile, regardless of how buffed his recovery was. While I'm mixed about giving Ganondorf tools that have potential to universally force players to approach him, I can see merit here.

I think the simplest solution is make his Warlock Punch have a "weak" variant by only tapping B, with said variant being a reflector given that both the Warlock Punch and his ball reflect moves are both backhands. He'd have both grounded and aerial variants that way.

 

[Jotari]

So what do you think of DK and Smash 4-on Bowser? (coming from someone who dislikes the latter)

I think there's a place for fast heavy weights as well, but they can't all be fast heavy weights. Ganondorf serves well for what he is. I also prefer the Melee/Brawl style of Bowser, but I've never actually played Bowser so I can only comment on him aesthetically.

 

[Mr. Mediocre]

I think there's a place for fast heavy weights as well, but they can't all be fast heavy weights. Ganondorf serves well for what he is. I also prefer the Melee/Brawl style of Bowser, but I've never actually played Bowser so I can only comment on him aesthetically.

I appreciate the direction they've gone for both of them, but I've played way too much Ganondorf in order to play/enjoy them in practice. Bowser's moves on average don't sound or feel as good, and I need to put in effort if I want to get a grasp on DK's aerials and grab game.

 

[Quillion]

The thing that worries me about Ganondorf's moveset design is that Ultimate has made an effort to distinguish brawling heavies like Bowser and DK from zoning/spacing heavies like Ike and K. Rool. Brawling heavies are now deceptively mobile, while zoning heavies have the means to space and keep opponents at a distance.

Then we have Sephiroth, who should be a heavy by all accounts, but they arbitrarily made him a Mewtwo-like deceptive lightweight because they gave him too much range.

Ganondorf doesn't really have a niche to him from a balancing standpoint.

 

[Mr. Mediocre]

Ganondorf doesn't really have a niche to him from a balancing standpoint.

He doesn't have a fleshed-out niche because his moveset is largely stuck in Melee:

We know he was a last-minute addition, possible due to putting Falcon's moves on there, largely distinguished by their slower frame data, higher damage and knockback, and adjusted knockback angles and properties (besides fair, of course). This is great for busting out more content at a moment's notice, less so for making a clearly thought-out plan for a viable, balanced character. Falcon's moves were made for his mobility which supplements his recovery and allows him to bypass some camping and zoning. Meanwhile, Ganondorf can only hit you hard up close, which essentially makes him a super heavyweight rushdown glass cannon, which all contradict each other.

Ultimate has done the most to make him viable, but he still largely falls under that oxymoron of an archetype, even with his gigantic nair and smash attacks. Everyone knows Ganondorf needs a recovery and a way to deal with projectiles, but since no Smash character has had their movesets change substantially between games, he must settle for the kit of a rushdown brawler without anything to help him but the player's skill.

I guess that's most of the reason why he's a fan favorite, but still an unfortunate situation to be in.

 

[Quillion]

He doesn't have a fleshed-out niche because his moveset is largely stuck in Melee:

We know he was a last-minute addition, possible due to putting Falcon's moves on there, largely distinguished by their slower frame data, higher damage and knockback, and adjusted knockback angles and properties (besides fair, of course). This is great for busting out more content at a moment's notice, less so for making a clearly thought-out plan for a viable, balanced character. Falcon's moves were made for his mobility which supplements his recovery and allows him to bypass some camping and zoning. Meanwhile, Ganondorf can only hit you hard up close, which essentially makes him a super heavyweight rushdown glass cannon, which all contradict each other.

Ultimate has done the most to make him viable, but he still largely falls under that oxymoron of an archetype, even with his gigantic nair and smash attacks. Everyone knows Ganondorf needs a recovery and a way to deal with projectiles, but since no Smash character has had their movesets change substantially between games, he must settle for the kit of a rushdown brawler without anything to help him but the player's skill.

I guess that's most of the reason why he's a fan favorite, but still an unfortunate situation to be in.

That's why I'm saying that competitive players have stated that Ganondorf works better in Melee because the movement tech there gives him some measure of good mobility that synergizes with his playstyle.

And if they're not going to bring in those tech into Smash as an official measure ever again, give him at least DK-like mobility.

Also, I'd like to plug that Ganondorf's "happy accident" portrayal in Smash has done more for him as a character than the Zelda series itself ever has.

 

[Mr. Mediocre]

Also, I'd like to plug that Ganondorf's "happy accident" portrayal in Smash has done more for him as a character than the Zelda series itself ever has.

Oh, that's a spicy take if I've ever seen one, though I believe that's not the most incredulous idea ever uttered. Ganondorf was conceived as the origin of Ganon, which was just a pig demon that wants the Triforce. While plenty can be inferred and theorized from Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, and Tears of the Kingdom, Ganondorf is meant to serve as the antagonist to Link on his Hyrule-spanning adventure and little more. It's supposed to be left to our imagination. However, the monologue on his tower at the end of Wind Waker was a simple yet clever way to cast aside his simple characterization; most everything he does in Wind Waker is fantastic as a contrast to his past in OoT, but the monologue adds a new dimension of interpretation for him. Sure, we could take it at face value, he might be telling the truth as he sees it, but that doesn't mean that his desire for a better land for the Gerudo was his only, or even primary, purpose necessarily. While we never got to see such a masterful hint of Ganondorf's character again, at least Wind Waker gave us a taste of greatness.

In contrast, Melee haphazardly slapped a moveset on him that roughly showed power and called it a day. Sure, one could absolutely interpret this as in-character for Ganondorf (whatever in-character and canon means in the non-canonical Smash series), like that he's using this as an opportunity to train himself, to make sure he doesn't lose to Link for the umpteenth time. He could be limiting himself to certain spells and resorts to hand-to-hand combat because he considers all these other characters as beneath him, unworthy of the Demon King's full power. Perhaps he truly thinks you are incapable of beating him with only a fraction of his potential. The power of Smash is taking all of these video game characters and fighting with them in wild combinations, giving us the power to make our own stories as we wish.

But Ganondorf doesn't need Falcon's moveset to convey power, and he doesn't need to take moves from other characters to participate in Smash. It was only needed to make the cut in Melee and it still dominates his design to the present 20 years later. We imagine new movesets for Ganondorf because we want to take this character we love playing and make him a proper threat, since the Smash team has had better things to do than to properly balance/update Ganondorf, let alone any of the other veteran fighters.

 

[Jotari]

The thing that worries me about Ganondorf's moveset design is that Ultimate has made an effort to distinguish brawling heavies like Bowser and DK from zoning/spacing heavies like Ike and K. Rool. Brawling heavies are now deceptively mobile, while zoning heavies have the means to space and keep opponents at a distance.

Then we have Sephiroth, who should be a heavy by all accounts, but they arbitrarily made him a Mewtwo-like deceptive lightweight because they gave him too much range.

Ganondorf doesn't really have a niche to him from a balancing standpoint.

I don't really get the "Sephiroth should be heavy" complaint a lot of people seem to sling around. Like...why. He's the one with the narrow sword, Cloud's the one with the big heavy sword. He fights with precision in accuracy utilizing his long range in what we see of his games. And in Final Fantasy VII he spends his whole time levitating around the place. His frame is also tall but svelte. He has never been depicted as a heavy bruiser. Is it a bit silly he's on the same tier as Olimar and Pikachu when he's a grown ass man? Well if you frame it like that then yeah, but if you say he's between Zero Suit Samus and Sheik, then, yeah, that makes sense. Really Sephiroth is pretty much as perfect as a Smash character can be in terms of accuracy to home games and viable moveset.

I'd also disagree that Ganondorf doesn't have a nice. He absolutely has a nice. He is the powerful early killer. And sure, that playstyle is never going to dominate in high tier play, but most people are not professional Smashers and in a general audience Ganondorf absolutely wrecks other characters.

 

[Quillion]

Oh, that's a spicy take if I've ever seen one, though I believe that's not the most incredulous idea ever uttered. Ganondorf was conceived as the origin of Ganon, which was just a pig demon that wants the Triforce. While plenty can be inferred and theorized from Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, and Tears of the Kingdom, Ganondorf is meant to serve as the antagonist to Link on his Hyrule-spanning adventure and little more. It's supposed to be left to our imagination. However, the monologue on his tower at the end of Wind Waker was a simple yet clever way to cast aside his simple characterization; most everything he does in Wind Waker is fantastic as a contrast to his past in OoT, but the monologue adds a new dimension of interpretation for him. Sure, we could take it at face value, he might be telling the truth as he sees it, but that doesn't mean that his desire for a better land for the Gerudo was his only, or even primary, purpose necessarily. While we never got to see such a masterful hint of Ganondorf's character again, at least Wind Waker gave us a taste of greatness.

In contrast, Melee haphazardly slapped a moveset on him that roughly showed power and called it a day. Sure, one could absolutely interpret this as in-character for Ganondorf (whatever in-character and canon means in the non-canonical Smash series), like that he's using this as an opportunity to train himself, to make sure he doesn't lose to Link for the umpteenth time. He could be limiting himself to certain spells and resorts to hand-to-hand combat because he considers all these other characters as beneath him, unworthy of the Demon King's full power. Perhaps he truly thinks you are incapable of beating him with only a fraction of his potential. The power of Smash is taking all of these video game characters and fighting with them in wild combinations, giving us the power to make our own stories as we wish.

But Ganondorf doesn't need Falcon's moveset to convey power, and he doesn't need to take moves from other characters to participate in Smash. It was only needed to make the cut in Melee and it still dominates his design to the present 20 years later. We imagine new movesets for Ganondorf because we want to take this character we love playing and make him a proper threat, since the Smash team has had better things to do than to properly balance/update Ganondorf, let alone any of the other veteran fighters.

Whatever characterization Ganondorf had in WW was thrown away for TP, they have never done anything with the idea of his envy of Hyrule ever since it was revealed in that game.

And when TotK rebooted Ganondorf, the English dub deleted his idea that "the world lost its courage" because frankly, they still don't do anything with his motivation and just stick to wanting to rule the world.

In contrast, Smash actually does something with Ganondorf's obsession with power by conveying that he doesn't need his full strength or armaments to defeat anyone. They do this through gameplay, not through cutscenes or dialogue at that.

This is why Smash has done more for Ganondorf as a character than the Zelda series has.

I'd also disagree that Ganondorf doesn't have a nice. He absolutely has a nice. He is the powerful early killer. And sure, that playstyle is never going to dominate in high tier play, but most people are not professional Smashers and in a general audience Ganondorf absolutely wrecks other characters.

Bowser and DK are in that niche too. They aren't exactly dominant high tier characters, but they at least have better game feel that way (at least to most).

 

[Mr. Mediocre]

Whatever characterization Ganondorf had in WW was thrown away for TP, they have never done anything with the idea of his envy of Hyrule ever since it was revealed in that game.

And when TotK rebooted Ganondorf, the English dub deleted his idea that "the world lost its courage" because frankly, they still don't do anything with his motivation and just stick to wanting to rule the world.

In contrast, Smash actually does something with Ganondorf's obsession with power by conveying that he doesn't need his full strength or armaments to defeat anyone. They do this through gameplay, not through cutscenes or dialogue at that.

This is why Smash has done more for Ganondorf as a character than the Zelda series has.

As awful as the Zelda timeline is, it justifies why TP Ganondorf is basically just a continuation of OoT without any of the character examination WW brought up. It makes sense that the Ganondorf who took a piece of the Triforce and conquered Hyrule, only to be beat down once by the Hero of Time plus Sages and again by the gods themselves would perhaps reflect more on his goals and ambitions, while TP Ganondorf's plans were nipped in the bud before he was handed(?) the Triforce of Power and allowed to pose as a god in the Twilight Realm.

Meanwhile in TotK, I don't understand this whole ambition to conquer the world because "the world lost its courage." Like, it would make sense if it was simply a justification for his lust of power like he probably did as outlined in WW, envying Hyrule's prosperity. On its own, taken seriously, it doesn't clearly outline why Ganondorf wants to conquer Hyrule either, but merely adds a veneer of complexity without putting in the effort to make it logical. This is more a limitation of TotK's story, as the game took greater strides to add more conventional story elements lacking in BotW, but doesn't go far enough in developing a cohesive narrative.

In the gameplay department, the Zelda series has been a mixed bag where Ganondorf is the final boss but are usually held up by some combination of the rest of the game (which in universe is caused by Ganondorf), atmosphere, and the actual fight itself. None of them have found the sweet spot in my opinion, but they've captured a lot of people's fascination with Ganondorf regardless.

Smash Bros mostly succeeds as well, at least in showing his power. Landing several devastating hits sequentially is awe-inspiring. But the illusion of power can be shattered by his weaknesses. Some of them, like being combo food and moving slower than a continent, can be acceptable weaknesses to balance the character and may enhance his game-feel. Others are not. Fan-made movesets for Ganondorf, including mine, are born out of being dissatisfied with how Ganondorf plays right now. Hence, why I said I was keeping the stuff I liked and changing the stuff that didn't work. It'll never become a reality, but I don't want to simply fall to my death because I wasn't perfect in my recovery. I don't want to hassle with zoners because we both know I have no good answers to their projectiles. And I sure don't want to be beholden to a character whose potential was nipped in the bud because he was made a clone in Melee.

That being said, my opinion and feelings could still shift. After all, I would most likely change some of the moves I've posted 5 months ago. Well, except the super throws, I've gone too deep into that idea.