How will the tier list be handled if Custom moves/Mii fighters become legal?

[Deleted member]

If custom moves and Mii fighters become tourney legal, how will the tier list be handled? I say that in the sense that different custom moves have different strength and could work better with some match ups. Finding out which custom moves are better with different match ups and overall strength changes could make the tier list an overwhelming task, where if you only judged a characters strength based on their state without custom moves and banned the customs, you could treat them normally and create a traditional tier list. I posted this here because I was wondering if you others thought that all of the effort it would take to include custom moves into the tier list would be worth it or not, and I'm curious if maybe two tier lists will end up being created for normal and customs.
The question isn't a about if customs should be legal, but if they should be put into the tier list.

 

[AnchorTea]

Palutena: Top Tier

 

[Raijinken]

Either they'll be analyzed by their "optimal" setup, or each setup will be treated as a different character.

Or people will give up on making tier lists and just play the game and have fun.

 

[AnchorTea]

Either they'll be analyzed by their "optimal" setup, or each setup will be treated as a different character.

Or people will give up on making tier lists and just play the game and have fun.

I like your second option.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's pointless to consider different custom sets to be different characters. Far simpler (and more likely) to just assume that each character is using their optimal moveset for any given matchup.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

It's pointless to consider different custom sets to be different characters. Far simpler (and more likely) to just assume that each character is using their optimal moveset for any given matchup.

Basically. There'll probably be two tier lists, one with customs, and one without. The one with customs will tier characters treating their best custom moveset as their default.

 

[Deleted member]

Basically. There'll probably be two tier lists, one with customs, and one without. The one with customs will tier characters treating their best custom moveset as their default.

"Best" is highly subjective, and it's possible that some moves will be better with certain matchups, especially Palutena who has unique moves for each custom.

 

[SatoshiM]

Simpily assume each character is using their best moveset for each matchup - the more tools they have that makes them effective in specific matchups the higher they'll be ranked overall as a result.

Tier lists are basically a collection of what characters have the most advantageous/neutral matchups compared to the other cast members, with larger emphasis placed upon good matchups against other top tiers and less emphasis on being good against low tiers. Since it's based on matchups, we can assume that the optimal set for each matchup will be used, so I don't see why custom moves would make the tier list any more complex - while there are some excellent ones a lot of them aren't gamechanging because you use your normal A attacks much more than specials and none of them affect major character characteristics like movement speed or weight (besides Monodo Arts/Lightweight, but these are the exceptions of course).

 

[Deleted member]

Simpily assume each character is using their best moveset for each matchup - the more tools they have that makes them effective in specific matchups the higher they'll be ranked overall as a result.

Tier lists are basically a collection of what characters have the most advantageous/neutral matchups compared to the other cast members, with larger emphasis placed upon good matchups against other top tiers and less emphasis on being good against low tiers. Since it's based on matchups, we can assume that the optimal set for each matchup will be used, so I don't see why custom moves would make the tier list any more complex - while there are some excellent ones a lot of them aren't gamechanging because you use your normal A attacks much more than specials and none of them affect major character characteristics like movement speed or weight (besides Monodo Arts/Lightweight, but these are the exceptions of course).

You make a good point about tier lists being for overall superiority. I should have named this thread "How will the matchup chart be structured?" Sorry for not noticing this earlier.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

"Best" is highly subjective, and it's possible that some moves will be better with certain matchups, especially Palutena who has unique moves for each custom.

Of course it is. But they would be tiered according to their overall best moveset. Villager for example prefers Garden over Pocket for MUs like Sheik, Sonic, and Little Mac. But you'll be using standard Pocket for the vast majority of matchups.

It seems unrealistic to me to take into account every single viable custom moveset for a character when creating a tier list. By that I mean, it seems unreasonable to me to have 1122 Villager occupy one spot in the tier list, then have 2122 Villager occupy another. This becomes messier when you realise that there are customs that are basically interchangeable because they offer about equal utility. 2122, 1122, 2322, and 1322 Villager are all perfectly viable sets because standard Lloid and Pushy Lloid are both equally viable themselves.

 

[Deleted member]

Of course it is. But they would be tiered according to their overall best moveset. Villager for example prefers Garden over Pocket for MUs like Sheik, Sonic, and Little Mac. But you'll be using standard Pocket for the vast majority of matchups.

It seems unrealistic to me to take into account every single viable custom moveset for a character when creating a tier list. By that I mean, it seems unreasonable to me to have 1122 Villager occupy one spot in the tier list, then have 2122 Villager occupy another. This becomes messier when you realise that there are customs that are basically interchangeable because they offer about equal utility.

Hence why I said it would be an overwhelming task if anyone is set on doing it. Having it graded on best overall moveset... I don't know if it would make a big enough difference from grading each one, but it probably isn't worth examination due to the large time it would take. (With the exception of Palutena) I don't think changing the tier list should happen, but the matchup chart should include customs. On the topic of Mii fighters, they don't have a default moveset and rely on gear for stats and weight class... THAT would be harder to put into the tier list.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

1111 is technically their default moveset. Palutena has all of her customs unlocked from the start and you're normally forced to play 1111 Palutena in tourneys that don't allow customs, and even on FG. Also, Mii Fighters' weight, traction, air speed, etc are all functions of their width and height. They don't need gear or equipment any more than standard fighters need them.

I think customs would in fact impact characters' placement on the tier list. Using Villager as an example (again, because I'm most familiar with that character), she would go from being mid tier to probably at least low-high. Counter Timber is an incredible custom and that alone pushes her up quite a few spots on list.

 

[Deleted member]

1111 is technically their default moveset. Palutena has all of her customs unlocked from the start and you're normally forced to play 1111 Palutena in tourneys that don't allow customs, and even on FG. Also, Mii Fighters' weight, traction, air speed, etc are all functions of their width and height. They don't need gear or equipment any more than standard fighters need them.

I think customs would in fact impact characters' placement on the tier list. Using Villager as an example (again, because I'm most familiar with that character), she would go from being mid tier to probably at least low-high. Counter Timber is an incredible custom and that alone pushes her up quite a few spots on list.

That's right, you technically can create a default set Mii fighter if you add no gear and make the Mii's width and height the exact middle. So yeah, there will most likely be two tier lists for the two different ways of looking at the characters. Sorry that I kind of made a pointless thread.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Well I don't think its a pointless thread... we have a thread on customs, and a thread on competitive impressions, but we haven't had a thread on how the tier list would actually be done with customs.

 

[Yikarur]

1111 is technically their default moveset.

Miis don't have a default moveset. You create a character and you can play the character as you have created them. Setting any default for them is arbitrary because any set could be the default. Some moves just happen to be listed as 1 but the game has no default for Miis.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Operative word was "technically". The closest we have for a precedence is, again, Palutena. She, like the Miis, has all customs unlocked from the start. I get what you're saying. When you want to play Palutena, there's already a moveset waiting for you. When want to play a Mii, there is no moveset. But with both characters, you can create a custom moveset right off the bat.

If you're willing to accept this reasoning as the foundation one should use when deciding how to handle Miis in standard play, then 1111 is the "default" set.

 

[Kalamoona]

With customs, tier lists would be similar to competitive Pokemon.
They don't rank every Pokemon set individually, they rank the Pokemon's options as a whole.
It's entirely possible to have a Mewtwo with no attacking moves and only status moves. It's won't be a good Mewtwo, but they don't rank it as a bad Pokemon and allow it in lower tiered meta games. Because Mewtwo's potential is that it's an Uber tier Pokemon.

Likewise, just because a character like Sonic or Pikachu could have bad custom moves that make it worse doesn't means that they are bad characters. The potential best for them would be where their tier ranking would be.
Hope that made sense.

 

[Deleted member]

With customs, tier lists would be similar to competitive Pokemon.
They don't rank every Pokemon set individually, they rank the Pokemon's options as a whole.
It's entirely possible to have a Mewtwo with no attacking moves and only status moves. It's won't be a good Mewtwo, but they don't rank it as a bad Pokemon and allow it in lower tiered meta games. Because Mewtwo's potential is that it's an Uber tier Pokemon.

Likewise, just because a character like Sonic or Pikachu could have bad custom moves that make it worse doesn't means that they are bad characters. The potential best for them would be where their tier ranking would be.
Hope that made sense.

Like I said above, I understood that tier lists are for overall strength. What you are saying makes perfect sense. The topic of this thread should have been about the matchup chart, where separated matchups with different custom moves will be in mind.

 

[Wintropy]

As far as I know, tier lists are determined based on the sacrosanct and inviolate movesets of a particular character. These moves, being essentially static and designated from the get-go, are subject to the ever-progressing march of new discoveries, technical exploitations, interesting findings and a perennially advancing metagame. But the moves themselves remain essentially the same. As I recall, the rationale for each character fighting with their default moveset in For Glory is because the opponent has to be able to anticipate a certain kind of moveset, that being the moveset that the character's got in the first instance and is designed to fight with.

I think customs would certainly shake up the tier list and, by extension, the metagame quite impressively should they be considered a viable option for competitive play. Adding new variables, being able to tweak and sort your character to your liking, adapting to new strategies and exploring the new depths of a near-infinite variety of new movesets for existing characters would add new strata of technical complexity and lateral thinking to an already rich and vibrant metagame, and goodness knows that certain characters benefit massively from what customs they've got. Matchups would have to be reassessed to suit these new variables and the traditional values of a character only shifting position if new techs and tricks are discovered in the metagame would be altered significantly, as the innate potential of such laterally-oriented possibilities would open up new realms of distinction for otherwise insignificant characters. It'd be a hell of a paradigm shift, that's for sure, though one that I think would be a bit hectic and chaotic in the short term, though essentially, healthy and beneficial in the long run, in my opinion.

 

[T0MMY]

If custom moves and Mii fighters become tourney legal...

Stop right there.
Just stop.

Mii fighters are "legal"

There are very few events that I know of that make the scrubby ruling of banning them. And the ones that do are, well, scrubby by definition.

On the topic of Mii fighters, they don't have a default moveset and rely on gear for stats and weight class... THAT would be harder to put into the tier list.

What are you saying here? All characters that use equipment rely on them for stat changes, not just Mii. It's kind of confusing why you singled Mii out there.

When Custom Fighters is turned OFF the equipment on a Mii is nullified in a match, the same with any other character.

 

[[Deuce]]

If large tournaments are held with customs on for an extended period, just look at who's winning. Winners define our meta

 

[Deleted member]

If large tournaments are held with customs on for an extended period, just look at who's winning. Winners define our meta

I'm pretty sure it's more complicated that that. O.o But I guess that's what they did with Project M and the tier list turned out to be excellent.

 

[Deleted member]

When Custom Fighters is turned OFF the equipment on a Mii is nullified in a match, the same with any other character.

Sorry, I didn't know. I've only played this game for about an hour at someone else's house so... I don't know everything about the functions.

 

[MajorMajora]

Most likely it would include 2 parts:
1: Strength of optimal set-up.
2: The ability to adapt via secondary setups.

 

[Reaperfan]

Same as it always has, they'll be judged based on how consistently they can achieve victory versus the rest of the cast. The optimal setup and counterpick-setups are all still indicitive of one character, so there's no reason for only the "optimum setup" to judged separately from the rest of the options; each character you face may have a different "optimum setup."

My prediction is that the characters who have movesets that can handle a wide variety of matchups will become top-tier. The characters who only have a few "good to great" setups will place higher than they would on a "no customs" tier list, but not as highly as the ones with more varied options and strategies available to them.

 

[Uffe]

I'm all for custom moves. I think they're a cool feature in this game. However, in tourneys, it wouldn't be easy having your traditional tier list and your custom tier list. The reason is because with your tradition one, all characters are set with their default custom 1, whereas with custom moves allowed, you run into the trouble of say a Mario using 1, 3, 2, 1, and someone else's Mario using 3, 1, 1, 2. The custom tier list would be jumbled. It would bring a lot of variety to the table, but again, it would be all over the place. You would not have two different tier lists, there would be a lot more. It's not impossible to create, but it would take a hell of a long time to do.

My alternate option would be having your regular go-to tourneys where every character is default, and another tourney, done by whichever TO wants to, have every character with a custom set. You would at least know which tourney type it was. There was a topic created for specific custom moves in tournament settings, though, so that would be a good start to look into.

 

[frankabus]

I think instead of tier lists, there should be a specialized wiki where the prominent movesets of each character can have match-highlight youtube videos linked or something. And if people want to put in the effort, they can also do text explanations of the playstyles/usage, etc.

 

[steelguttey]

tier lists are not about who is the best, its about who has the best matchups. so yea, we are going to look at it as if youre always using the optimal setup for the optimal matchup

 

[digiholic]

They'll be ranked the same way all of the other characters are, by weighing their options against the rest of the cast, determining what they can and can't do, and ranking them accordingly.

"Where does X character rank using a custom move" should be considered at the same level as "Where does X character rank if he approaches with fair instead of nair?" It's just one of his options that he has access to, like every other move in his arsenal.

 

[Dooms]

Stop right there.
Just stop.

Mii fighters are "legal"

This isn't accurate unfortunately (coming from someone that likes secondarying Mii Fighter). Mii Fighters that are allowed to use their full moveset are generally only allowed in Japan, probably smaller regions I don't know about, and when customs are legal.

Otherwise, Mii Fighters are forced to 1111 (or rarely 2222/3333 but mostly 1111) which is pretty much banning them.

Edit: In regards to the thread: Matchups will be handled the exact same as the tier list imo. Best possible set in that specific matchup = what is used for ranking the matchup.

 

[digiholic]

This isn't accurate unfortunately (coming from someone that likes secondarying Mii Fighter). Mii Fighters that are allowed to use their full moveset are generally only allowed in Japan, probably smaller regions I don't know about, and when customs are legal.

Otherwise, Mii Fighters are forced to 1111 (or rarely 2222/3333 but mostly 1111) which is pretty much banning them.

Edit: In regards to the thread: Matchups will be handled the exact same as the tier list imo. Best possible set in that specific matchup = what is used for ranking the matchup.

I think that's his point. T0MMY has been probably the most vocal advocate against the limiting of Mii move sets since day 1, to the point where it's not really a "legality" issue, but a "TO's willingness and setup time" issue.

 

[Gitbox]

at least from the brawler side of things the idea of all 1,2 or 3 is very balanced

3 is very aggro orientated with limited recovery, spikes are its greatest weakness due to so many moves being reckless.
from the Burning Kick to Piston punch, 2's moves are very powerful but easily punishable

1 or nicknamed the standard, has good combos but its weakness is readability, all its specs takes a second to prime or finish.
they all have good range and headon assult is excellent for control, but timing is the drawback

2 has the best recovery thanks to backflip, missile and helicopter, but its weakness its its impossible to combo specs and smashes together due to landing lag

 

[Deleted member]

at least from the brawler side of things the idea of all 1,2 or 3 is very balanced

3 is very aggro orientated with limited recovery, spikes are its greatest weakness due to so many moves being reckless.
from the Burning Kick to Piston punch, 2's moves are very powerful but easily punishable

1 or nicknamed the standard, has good combos but its weakness is readability, all its specs takes a second to prime or finish.
they all have good range and headon assult is excellent for control, but timing is the drawback

2 has the best recovery thanks to backflip, missile and helicopter, but its weakness its its impossible to combo specs and smashes together due to landing lag

Is it like this with every character where the 1, 2, and 3 sets have set advantages and disadvantages with the different attributes like recovery and combo potential? Are they all set to the three numbers or are they mixed up? Hmmm... If they won't allow combining different sets, this sound like a better way of looking at it...

 

[Gitbox]

for Gunners

1 is versatile but none of the moves are overly strong, or at least to start off with.
its a late game choice, because his moves dont do much damage but are great for finishing as players get worn out.
its recov is punishable.

3 brings in the firepower and its healfield is great against other gunners, and its strength is also its weakness, punishing.

a lot of its projectiles are slow so easily dodgable

2 is surprisngly the most campy, its problem being that cannon uppercut and bomb can be avoided fairly well.

 

[Gitbox]

Is it like this with every character where the 1, 2, and 3 sets have set advantages and disadvantages with the different attributes like recovery and combo potential? Are they all set to the three numbers or are they mixed up? Hmmm... If they won't allow combining different sets, this sound like a better way of looking at it...

yes every custom is listed with number 1-3. meaning its possible to do ALL CHARACTER's custom moves as the 1,2,3

Like other fighting games' alt forms/techniques

 

[Gitbox]

Is it like this with every character where the 1, 2, and 3 sets have set advantages and disadvantages with the different attributes like recovery and combo potential? Are they all set to the three numbers or are they mixed up? Hmmm... If they won't allow combining different sets, this sound like a better way of looking at it...

just test out characters with the certain movesets, and you will see if theres any that are overly strong

but to me it seems each type has one tradeoff at the least.

 

[Gitbox]

the swordfighter is often argued as the worst ironically for simaler reasons to why diddy is the best.'its an allrounder, the diff between SF and DidK is that SF has Tradeoffs and is a more balanced allrounder (jack of all trades, master of none, just like link in brawl)

 

[KFrosty]

The other thing to consider about customized Mii's is their body type. The differences in power and speed from a short and tall Mii is very similar to the differences between Toon and regular Link.

Personally, I think the "Default Miis" should just be average sized 1111s. Making three (or six just in case of dittos) is not all that difficult, as the six guest Miis could easily be used for each version of 1111. Theres no real reason to ban them when it would take 5 minutes to make them playable.

 

[Dooms]

The other thing to consider about customized Mii's is their body type. The differences in power and speed from a short and tall Mii is very similar to the differences between Toon and regular Link.

Personally, I think the "Default Miis" should just be average sized 1111s. Making three (or six just in case of dittos) is not all that difficult, as the six guest Miis could easily be used for each version of 1111. Theres no real reason to ban them when it would take 5 minutes to make them playable.

Except literally every Mii is low-bottom tier and near worthless as 1111, so it's pretty much banning them.

 

[madworlder]

Either they'll be analyzed by their "optimal" setup, or each setup will be treated as a different character.

Or people will give up on making tier lists and just play the game and have fun.

One of these, or they will be ranked with their best set of options in mind for any given situation.
Arcana Heart has similar problems now with 24 characters and 24 arcana that change characters' health, special moves, combos, movement, meter gain, and more. We don't have trouble making tier lists, you just round up all your character knowledge and apply it.