How to take wavedashing out of brawl

[psicicle]

Yeah, wavedashing can easily be taken out of brawl... although it's not likely IMO.

A lot of people are saying how you have to do all this complex coding and break the physics of smash to remove airdodging, so:

Observe what happens when you airdodge against a wall or ceiling.

You stay in "airdodge" mode.

When you airdodge against the ground, your airdidge gets cancelled, and you go into standing mode, but because you have momentum from the airdodge, you move.

To take wavedashing out, all you need to do is to keep the character in "airdodge mode" and stop it getting cancelled when they touch the ground. In other words, make the ground like a wall in that airdodges don't cancel.

So, unless I overlooked something, it is not a huge hassle to take wavedashing out of brawl while keeping everything else intact.

EDIT:THIS IS PURELY ON HOW WAVEDASHING COULD BE REMOVED, NOT WHETHER IT SHOULD OR NOT


EDIT: Go here for supplementary wavedash info and if you are about to post "wavedash is a glitch". Look at the size 5 font if you are about to post "wavedash should be taken out"

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=110719

 

[1337marth]

Yeah, wavedashing can easily be taken out of brawl... although it's not likely IMO.

A lot of people are saying how you have to do all this complex coding and break the physics of smash to remove airdodging, so:

Observe what happens when you airdodge against a wall or ceiling.

You stay in "airdodge" mode.

When you airdodge against the ground, your airdidge gets cancelled, and you go into standing mode, but because you have momentum from the airdodge, you move.

To take wavedashing out, all you need to do is to keep the character in "airdodge mode" and stop it getting cancelled when they touch the ground. In other words, make the ground like a wall in that airdodges don't cancel.

So, unless I overlooked something, it is not a huge hassle to take wavedashing out of brawl while keeping everything else intact.

I want wavedahing myself, I senn no were in there were you said you wanted it or not, but I am guesing about the topic and sayign you don't?

 

[OnyxVulpine]

Once they make contact with the ground they stop? Or slow down immensely? You could still wavedush but it would be pointless with my idea.

I think they will change Wavedashing a bit, but not take it out entirely.

 

[psicicle]

I really hope wavedashing stays. I think it really should too, there isn't any reason to remove it really. Removing it for the sake of change is probably the best reason I've found to remove it, but it isn't exactly a good one.

I play ice climbers and they suck without it.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Yeah, wavedashing can easily be taken out of brawl... although it's not likely IMO.

A lot of people are saying how you have to do all this complex coding and break the physics of smash to remove airdodging, so:

Observe what happens when you airdodge against a wall or ceiling.

You stay in "airdodge" mode.

When you airdodge against the ground, your airdidge gets cancelled, and you go into standing mode, but because you have momentum from the airdodge, you move.

To take wavedashing out, all you need to do is to keep the character in "airdodge mode" and stop it getting cancelled when they touch the ground. In other words, make the ground like a wall in that airdodges don't cancel.

So, unless I overlooked something, it is not a huge hassle to take wavedashing out of brawl while keeping everything else intact.

Oh wonderful, you've just opened Pandora's Box. Now ANOTHER Touney/Casual flame war will start. I'm just going to agree with the Forum majority and nod my head as the people extoll the virtues of the almight WDing.

<_<

And I'll leave it up to you to see if I'm sarcastic or not.

 

[1337marth]

I really hope wavedashing stays. I think it really should too, there isn't any reason to remove it really. Removing it for the sake of change is probably the best reason I've found to remove it, but it isn't exactly a good one.

I play ice climbers and they suck without it.

Ok I did not know where you stood, I thought you were not wanting it.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

No, he's just saying "It's easy to remove".
Which kinda makes it more likely they left it in on purpose.

BUT ACTUALLY

To make airdodge stay on the ground, you'd have to ADD
the condition "if char is NOT airdodging" to the script, because "goto("groundanims")
would just be one piece of code for when ground is hitting the player.

This makes it likely that the development team never actually found
out in the first place. Another easy way to solve the WD problem is to make a
WD animation.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

In theory this could possibly work, but it would requier two seperate ground mechanics.


On for in air dodge animation and one for standard animaiton.


Allowing this though, it would cause further complications. Being able to air dodge into the ground would replace spot dodging, for you would be able to land immediatly and do whatever out of it.

It's basically a "Get out of pressure for free" card.

 

[GaryCXJk]

It's not just the code with which this would get a problem. Technically wavedashing can be taken care of.

However, this will open up more exploits.

I'll quote what I've written:

Plus, I don't think they would sacrifice one exploit for another without making it look bad.

Because, look at it this way. Air dodging into a wall creates a momentum. You will just move against the wall, until the air dodge is completed. Same goes for air dodging in the floor. Air dodging in a slope is just moving against the wall, and slipping along the way. Removing this exploit means you just need to stop the character from moving any further at all, meaning the momentum against a wall would also need to be negated, so that air dodging is automatically canceled, which can be exploited by skilled characters, especially characters who can wall jump. To get rid of this exploit, you would need to make an algorithm which describes only movement to the ground gets canceled, but what about air-dodging to the side against a slope? It still counts as a wavedash.

Seriously, there is no way in hell Sakurai is arsed to fix this exploit. It just creates even more exploits, and in the end it's not profitable. You won't earn more money by removing the wavedash exploit.

 

[psicicle]

make it so that it lasts for the length of a regular airdodge. The airdodge animation ends after a set amount of time anyway and it would (probably) be easier to time an attack than for than a spotdodge.

Wouldn't it be similar in consequence to triangle jumping? I suppose that the start up time would be less, but not much so.

EDIT: This applies to any surface that you can stand on. I think that whether something is "ground" or "wall" is determined by the angle of slope. If you go to kirby's Break the targets, you will find that the steep slopes there are not wavedashable. THis is because to revert to "standing", the aridodge would need to be cancelled and it isn't.

I think that the way WD against a wall works is:

Think of the wavedash motion as a composite of "horizontal" and "vertical" movement. I think that airdodging against a wall negates all of the "horizontal" movement of the wavedash. Airdodging against the ground could negate all the "vertical" movement.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Another easy way to solve the WD problem is to make a
WD animation.

No. Adding a WD animation negates what WD is for, which is spacing and being able to perform anything while moving. Adding an animation would mean that we'd have to wait until the animation is over with before we can do anything.

Not to mention, Wave-dashing looks just fine without it.

 

[psicicle]

unless the animation could be cancelled by anything.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

Because, look at it this way. Air dodging into a wall creates a momentum. You will just move against the wall, until the air dodge is completed. Same goes for air dodging in the floor. Air dodging in a slope is just moving against the wall, and slipping along the way. Removing this exploit means you just need to stop the character from moving any further at all, meaning the momentum against a wall would also need to be negated, so that air dodging is automatically canceled, which can be exploited by skilled characters, especially characters who can wall jump. To get rid of this exploit, you would need to make an algorithm which describes only movement to the ground gets canceled, but what about air-dodging to the side against a slope? It still counts as a wavedash.

If the character doesn't land when he airdodges to the ground, the exploit is gone,
because you can't do anything while airdodging.
It'll be like a "wavedash whiff", when you do the timing perfectly but fail to airdodge
diagonally, and just airdodge along the ground.

 

[Team Giza]

Yes it would easily be removed this way, and personally I think it would look weird as heck. It would stop all the additions wavedashing gave in Melee effectively (even if they still slid across the floor when in airdodge mode).

 

[Toomai]

Yes it would easily be removed this way, and personally I think it would look weird as heck.

Not if...a special animation was put in place for wavedashing.

Wavedashing involves suddenly forcing movement upon yourself, right? What would happen in the real world if you did that on a non-icy surface? You'd trip. You'd land flat on your face for a second or two.

I find it likely that something like this will happen, considering how they're making a lot of other physics modifications for increased realism.

 

[DonkeyPirate]

I doubt they would take it out. It doesn't affect gameplay in a negative way. It is not a glitch that exploits a clear advantage to any player, as anyone can do it and some people it doesnt help out very much. It would take them unnecessary effort to remove the wave dash, and it wouldn't be worth it.

 

[PurpleStuff]

Not if...a special animation was put in place for wavedashing.

Wavedashing involves suddenly forcing movement upon yourself, right? What would happen in the real world if you did that on a non-icy surface? You'd trip. You'd land flat on your face for a second or two.

I find it likely that something like this will happen, considering how they're making a lot of other physics modifications for increased realism.

They're making a lot of modifications for increased realism? About the only thing I can remember hearing about modifications to the physics engine is increased air combat, which sounds to me like increased floatiness, which sounds to me like less realism.

 

[Adi]

I can wavedash with my socks on <<

 

[Haruno Kotetsu]

I think wavedashing was a glitch in SSBM.. if they make the game glitch free [if thats even possible] i dont think there will be wavedashing. but im pretty sure Sakurai noticed it.

and there will probably new things like l-cancelling in brawl, so i guess we'll have to wait and see how it turns out because theres no telling it.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

I think they will take it out. Why? Because it's a glitch, not an actual part of gameplay. Yeah a fun glitch that many people use, but still a widely publicized glitch, so therefore they'll remove it. Or just make the momentum less, so wavedashing becomes useless.

 

[element_of_fire]

Dear noobs,

Wavedash is NOT a glitch, it is a physics exploit. They are two COMPLETLY different things. There is NOTHING wrong with it... please quit crying about it...

With Love,

EoF

 

[GaryCXJk]

Seriously, I think there should not be a way to solve the wavedashing exploit. It's like as if God would need to find a way to fix the "what comes up must stay up" exploits.

 

[Haruno Kotetsu]

ah, my bad. i always thought it was a glitch.. <<
ah well.

even if it is out, people will still play brawl. they'll just complain about it and find some other technique to glorify later.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

Dear noobs,

Wavedash is NOT a glitch, it is a physics exploit. They are two COMPLETLY different things. There is NOTHING wrong with it... please quit crying about it...

With Love,

EoF

Btw, being a noob on these boards doesn't mean I've only heard of Brawl 1 day ago, and that i've only played Melee for about a week. I've played Melee for about as long as you, and I've known about the Dojo website for ages. Infact, I know as much about SSB as you do.

And like I said in my post, they'll probably remove it, or make the momentum less.

 

[Team Giza]

I think wavedashing was a glitch in SSBM.. if they make the game glitch free [if thats even possible] i dont think there will be wavedashing. but im pretty sure Sakurai noticed it.

and there will probably new things like l-cancelling in brawl, so i guess we'll have to wait and see how it turns out because theres no telling it.

Wavedashing will probably be actually have work put into it so it will be clear that it is meant to be in Brawl. Much like L-canceling, which in SSB64 was a glitch, but when Melee came out they put it into the system cause I guess the developters liked the ideas of advanced tactics in the game. Though I suppose maybe it was just one programmer who wanted somewhat of a different game and implanted it without anyone else knowing. lol that would be great. But the fact that wavedashing and l-canceling was kept in the PAL version of the game is what really makes me think both of them will be returning in Brawl.

 

[Haruno Kotetsu]

You have a good point. [that would be funny btw..lol]

If they did put it in the system in Melee because they liked the idea of advanced tactics, not much should change between Melee and Brawl as far as the techniques go. But we'll have to wait and see, nothings for sure until we see it ourselves.

 

[MookieRah]

Psicicle do you have any experience with coding? Do you have any experience at all with programming games? If you do, and could provide proof to such a thing, then I will retract this next statement.

You claim it would be "easy" to make this alteration, but have you thought of the other ramifications? To make the ground act like a wall could possibly be MUCH harder than you think it would be. Think about it, I'm sure there are thousands of lines of code to make the physics work the way they do and I very much doubt that it would be "easy" to make the adjustment like you claim it would be.

Often things that *sound* easy on paper when it comes to programming end up being a much larger problem than they would expect.

 

[Salaad]

It took my uncle 60 hours (If it he did it straight) to make a simple Pac-man game >.>

I think it's just fine...

 

[Chidosengan]

It took my uncle 60 hours (If it he did it straight) to make a simple Pac-man game >.>

I think it's just fine...

And that, folks, is how hard is to make a simple game.

What did he used? GameMaker? or actual coding?

 

[Team Giza]

Mookie, I understand where you are coming from but from my limited knowledge of programming it seems very possible to take out wavedashing this way. Not by changing the ground to act too much like a wall but just making a value for airdodging stay active upon hitting a ground. I cannot really see the negetives effects to doing this, but to me it sounds like an easy fix this way. Though in my person opinion, it would look strange.

 

[Salaad]

And that, folks, is how hard is to make a simple game.

What did he used? GameMaker? or actual coding?

Don't remeber, such a long time ago. >.>

It still would take a lot of time to create any game. At EA games, they require you to work 12 hours day...

 

[Toomai]

They're making a lot of modifications for increased realism?

Well, Pikachu could stand on that crate, so large items may be impassable. Also, the Footstool Jump may show that characters will also be solid.

I'm just taking a logical guess.

 

[psicicle]

Psicicle do you have any experience with coding? Do you have any experience at all with programming games? If you do, and could provide proof to such a thing, then I will retract this next statement.

You claim it would be "easy" to make this alteration, but have you thought of the other ramifications? To make the ground act like a wall could possibly be MUCH harder than you think it would be. Think about it, I'm sure there are thousands of lines of code to make the physics work the way they do and I very much doubt that it would be "easy" to make the adjustment like you claim it would be.

Often things that *sound* easy on paper when it comes to programming end up being a much larger problem than they would expect.

Heh I don't have experience in coding games, but I do know how to program robots.

The code is pretty much already in place isn't it? I mean, the wall already does this so couldn't you make the ground do the same?

The airdodge appears to cancel when you do it onto a surface you can stand on, and there is already collision detection for airdodging against a wall. Wouldn't it have taken extra code to make the ground different or to cancel the airdodge?

This is all speculation because I don't even know what language smash is in, so it is true that it could be a lot harder than it sounds but that assertion has no evidence either way, unless somebody who knows the coding of smash were to reply.

 

[Toomai]

The main difference between WDing against a wall and a ground is that you don't stand on the wall. It's likely that slightly different physics govern grounded and aerial characters (for example, you can push people on the ground). So coding WD fixing may have to look into both floors and standing physics.

Also, I think Nintendo uses assembly language or something of their own creation.

 

[Eaode]

yeah, one thing I've figured out about the Smash engine over the years is that one thing is very central to the physics.

You have to land when you touch the ground. If there is no special animation created for that specific move, you will do your regular landing animation anyway (this is why some moves auto-cancel like Falco's laser, Samus' missile and Bowser's flame in v1.0, which they corrected). So really the only thing they can do is create a WD animation, because if you try to keep the airdodge active while touching the ground you'd have to edit this very solid and basic part of the engine, most likely causing all sorts of other problems.

 

[Chipman]

Dear noobs,

Wavedash is NOT a glitch, it is a physics exploit. They are two COMPLETLY different things. There is NOTHING wrong with it... please quit crying about it...

With Love,

EoF

So an exploit ISN'T a glitch now?

a glitch is a term used by players to indicate a programming error which results in behavior not intended by the programmers

Straight from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glitch

A physics exploit is a glitch. Tthere was an ERROR in the PROGRAMMING which caused wavedashing, a BEHAVIOR NOT INTENDED BY THE PROGRAMMERS.


I hate it when old members call other members noobs and disregard their points entirely because they're "always right", newer members CAN'T be right, yes?

 

[psicicle]

yeah, one thing I've figured out about the Smash engine over the years is that one thing is very central to the physics.

You have to land when you touch the ground. If there is no special animation created for that specific move, you will do your regular landing animation anyway (this is why some moves auto-cancel like Falco's laser, Samus' missile and Bowser's flame in v1.0, which they corrected). So really the only thing they can do is create a WD animation, because if you try to keep the airdodge active while touching the ground you'd have to edit this very solid and basic part of the engine, most likely causing all sorts of other problems.

Well, there are also the moves that don't cancel when you hit the ground like mario's fireball, luigi's, the fire, and so on. You could treat the airdodge like that.

So an exploit ISN'T a glitch now?



Straight from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glitch

A physics exploit is a glitch. Tthere was an ERROR in the PROGRAMMING which caused wavedashing, a BEHAVIOR NOT INTENDED BY THE PROGRAMMERS.


I hate it when old members call other members noobs and disregard their points entirely because they're "always right", newer members CAN'T be right, yes?

How is WD being a glitch or not relevant to the topic?

Is behavior unforseen synonymous with behavior unintended?

Is drillshining a glitch? What about any combo in the game?

Drillshining is a drillkick l-cancelled into a shine. If you do it right, you can't get shieldgrabbd after the drillkick.

Wavedashing is a jump quickly followed by an airdodge.

Both of these are components of the game that were intended.

Are both of the glitches? WHat's the difference between a wavedash and a drillkick in terms of their "glitchiness"?

And if you do say that they both are, then why is a technique's glitch status even being discussed? Why does it matter if something is a glitch or not?