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How to SDI Fox's U-throw U-air and not die

PCwizCube

Smash Cadet
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Jan 10, 2010
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After watching Mango dominate Evo with fox, I'm wondering, are there people who can consistently SDI fox's u-airs in NTSC? I know Hungrybox is good at it, but even he gets up throw -> up air'd a lot vs mango; mango was also successfully landing it a lot vs Wobbles and Armada.

Is SDI'ing the u-airs really just that difficult to do consistently with the timing and nerves or are people like mango just really good at making sure it successfully hits? Like only hitting with the 2nd hitbox (which doesn't happen a significant amount of the time) or just moving in a way during the u-air that makes it hard for the opponent to SDI out of it?
 

noobird

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not sure about this at all, but it could be that fox can stop himself from going too far past demo kirby since you can control your movement in the air, so even the sdi isn't necessarily enough to escape the second hit. shrug. or you hit demo kirby on the side closer to you and then the sdi actually brings him in loll
 

Ridel

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The illustrations are just perfect LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: 1 year later and I regret saying this.
 
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SnorlaxLuigi

Smash Rookie
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Dec 31, 2014
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So after looking at fox's U-air hitbox, if fox dashed to the left and then u-air'ed, don't you have the second hitbox on the wrong side? In the frame data thread fox is facing to the right and the first hit is on the right then the second hit of u-air is on the left. Therefore, if fox dashes to the left like in the picture, wouldn't the first hitbox be on the left and the second hit be on the right? Based on that, is it still correct to SDI to the right if the exact situation happened in the picture? Sorry if that didn't make a lot of sense, thanks.
I'm assuming it is still correct to SDI the opposite direction of the way fox dashed to get to you because of the fox's momentum, but what about if there's no (or barely) any momentum in a direction? Is it correct to SDI away from the side the second hit is on? For example if fox barely had to move to get to you, is facing to the right (so the second hit of U-air is gonna be on the left) is it correct to SDI to the right in that circumstance?
 
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reverie2

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158
So after looking at fox's U-air hitbox, if fox dashed to the left and then u-air'ed, don't you have the second hitbox on the wrong side? In the frame data thread fox is facing to the right and the first hit is on the right then the second hit of u-air is on the left. Therefore, if fox dashes to the left like in the picture, wouldn't the first hitbox be on the left and the second hit be on the right? Based on that, is it still correct to SDI to the right if the exact situation happened in the picture? Sorry if that didn't make a lot of sense, thanks.
I'm assuming it is still correct to SDI the opposite direction of the way fox dashed to get to you because of the fox's momentum, but what about if there's no (or barely) any momentum in a direction? Is it correct to SDI away from the side the second hit is on? For example if fox barely had to move to get to you, is facing to the right (so the second hit of U-air is gonna be on the left) is it correct to SDI to the right in that circumstance?
Yeah I'm also a bit confused. I'm looking at http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac30/X1-12/FoxUAir.gif and for both hits of the up-air, there are hitboxes on both feet, while in the demo kirby pic the first hitbox is on the right and the 2nd hitbox is on the left. Can someone elaborate as to why if Kirby di's left, kirby should sdi right, and if kirby di's right, kirby should sdi elft?
 

Oskurito

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You can only SDI the first hit to get out, you either DI it left if fox comes from the right, or right if fox comes from the left. If fox comes directly from below then you can only SDI up and hope for the best.

Some characters have a difficult time doing all of this because of how their hurt boxes (bubbles) are made. Hence why is significantly easier to SDI fox's upair with puff or kirby.
 

Nuttre

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On a more serious note, is there a way for fox to time the uair so that only the 2nd hit connects consistently?
 

tauKhan

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You can only SDI the first hit to get out, you either DI it left if fox comes from the right, or right if fox comes from the left. If fox comes directly from below then you can only SDI up and hope for the best..
It doesn't work quite like that, fox can often adjust his 2nd jump and drift so that the 2nd hit would hit in the middle or on the other side, in which case you should either try to sdi away or up. Against marth for example it's often possible to hit the uair so that 1 sdi isn't enough to escape, and 2 sdi's is basically impossible to get because 1st hit has only 3 frames of hitlag fresh.

On a more serious note, is there a way for fox to time the uair so that only the 2nd hit connects consistently?
Depends on the character, but it's possible vs many light characters such as puff, pikachu etc. It's pretty hard, and if you miss you'll often miss the uair altogether, because you need to time the double jump and uair so that the apex of the jump barely reaches the victim. Leffen has got single hit uairs a few times in the sets vs hbox lately, but not super consistently. I don't know how consistent one can expect to be with them.
 

-ACE-

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It's just a matter of timing the uair fp after the dj, and adjusting where you start the dj as needed so that the first hitbox has come and gone near the peak of your jump. Definitely harder to land though.
 

tauKhan

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Yeah, and getting the uair timing down isn't hard, what's hard is timing the dj correctly. I don't know how strict the timing is but it feels like frame perfect, just a guess tho. Also the required dj timing depends on the victims percentage.
 
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Rachman

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It doesn't work quite like that, fox can often adjust his 2nd jump and drift so that the 2nd hit would hit in the middle or on the other side, in which case you should either try to sdi away or up. Against marth for example it's often possible to hit the uair so that 1 sdi isn't enough to escape, and 2 sdi's is basically impossible to get because 1st hit has only 3 frames of hitlag fresh.
The first hit of uair has 3 frames of hitlag not 4?
 

tauKhan

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The first hit of uair has 3 frames of hitlag not 4?
Oops, I meant 3 SDI'able frames. You can't actually sdi on the hit frame which count as 1st hitlag frame. You're right though, the first hit inflicts 4 frames of hitlag.
 
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Rachman

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I did not know that! I feel like every time I see one of your posts you are dropping knowledge on me lol
 

reverie2

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Oops, I meant 3 SDI'able frames. You can't actually sdi on the hit frame which count as 1st hitlag frame. You're right though, the first hit inflicts 4 frames of hitlag.
the 4th frame of hitlag would be ASDI'd though, right? not regular SDI. Also kind of an off topic question, but do you know if regular DI can only be input on the first frame AFTER hitlag?
 

-ACE-

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ASDI registers whatever direction you're holding the frame after hitlag iirc, any time after that your "regular" directional DI can be input. Taukhan is saying you can get a maximum of 3 SDI inputs during hitlag on the first hitbox, which would basically require clawing the controller after a fist full of caffeine pills, lol.
 
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tauKhan

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the 4th frame of hitlag would be ASDI'd though, right? not regular SDI. Also kind of an off topic question, but do you know if regular DI can only be input on the first frame AFTER hitlag?
ASDI is read for the 1st frame after hitlag. Trajectory di is read for that same frame, so if you want to ASDI to different direction, you need to doublestick di.

any time after that your "regular" directional DI can be input.
No, trajectory di is also read only the frame after hitlag.
 

reverie2

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ASDI is read for the 1st frame after hitlag. Trajectory di is read for that same frame, so if you want to ASDI to different direction, you need to doublestick di.



No, trajectory di is also read only the frame after hitlag.
Are you sure? That seems to be different than what Kadano says in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RP3sbS7Dm0 see 2:16, where he says "on the last frame of hitlag, asdi is output"
 

tauKhan

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Are you sure? That seems to be different than what Kadano says in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RP3sbS7Dm0 see 2:16, where he says "on the last frame of hitlag, asdi is output"
Yes, because that's the only solution that makes ASDI down teching work like it does. If the ASDI happened earlier, you could ASDI cc/tech anything that sends you upwards. If ASDI was applied after you get sent off, it would be very difficult to cc/tech even weak moves.


The difference is there simply because of notation ambiquity. It's confusing and can cause misunderstandings, so I generally try not to even mention inputs (I clearly failed in the post you quoted), but rather talk about the actions you can perform on each frame. Interestingly, I have asked Kadano about the very same thing multiple times here, and I still get confused sometimes. Below is explanation of the difference, which is hopefully illuminating:

Kadano takes the view of a debug frame advance mode: when you use frame advance, on every frame you choose the input for the next frame. By that perspective the ASDI is input on the last frame of hitlag, while it happens on the frame after.

I like to think that inputs for each frame is read at the beginning of that frame, so that your inputs take place pretty much immediately. As you can hopefully see, in the notation I use the input for ASDI is read on the frame after hitlag.

Both notations make a lot of sense unfortunately. My argument for the viewpoint is mostly that the one Kadano uses gives the impression of there being an unnecessary frame of input lag which doesn't have to actually exist. Also melee on gamecube seems to have around 50ms of input lag, which is a bit more than 3 frames, so 1 frame of input lag standing out like that is a bit strange. It's hard to know the actual combined input lag of a melee setup on crt, and thus I like to eliminate input lag from the notation.

In reality the other notation doesn't actually depict there being more input lag though, since the inputs for the next frame could be read at the very end of each frame. If you think that way, the inputs are actually read at the same time, and it's just a matter of whether you attach the "reading inputs" part to the beginning of a frame or to the ending of the preciding one. The decision is kind of arbitrary.
 

reverie2

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Yes, because that's the only solution that makes ASDI down teching work like it does. If the ASDI happened earlier, you could ASDI cc/tech anything that sends you upwards. If ASDI was applied after you get sent off, it would be very difficult to cc/tech even weak moves.


The difference is there simply because of notation ambiquity. It's confusing and can cause misunderstandings, so I generally try not to even mention inputs (I clearly failed in the post you quoted), but rather talk about the actions you can perform on each frame. Interestingly, I have asked Kadano about the very same thing multiple times here, and I still get confused sometimes. Below is explanation of the difference, which is hopefully illuminating:

Kadano takes the view of a debug frame advance mode: when you use frame advance, on every frame you choose the input for the next frame. By that perspective the ASDI is input on the last frame of hitlag, while it happens on the frame after.

I like to think that inputs for each frame is read at the beginning of that frame, so that your inputs take place pretty much immediately. As you can hopefully see, in the notation I use the input for ASDI is read on the frame after hitlag.

Both notations make a lot of sense unfortunately. My argument for the viewpoint is mostly that the one Kadano uses gives the impression of there being an unnecessary frame of input lag which doesn't have to actually exist. Also melee on gamecube seems to have around 50ms of input lag, which is a bit more than 3 frames, so 1 frame of input lag standing out like that is a bit strange. It's hard to know the actual combined input lag of a melee setup on crt, and thus I like to eliminate input lag from the notation.

In reality the other notation doesn't actually depict there being more input lag though, since the inputs for the next frame could be read at the very end of each frame. If you think that way, the inputs are actually read at the same time, and it's just a matter of whether you attach the "reading inputs" part to the beginning of a frame or to the ending of the preciding one. The decision is kind of arbitrary.
Do you recommend quarter circle sdi'ing it or just resetting the stick every time? I'm having a lot of trouble doing it consistently with both methods. also... if i don't trajectory di and he comes from straight below me, should I di left, right, or up?

edit: sdi'ing by resetting the stick seems way easier than quarter circle sdi
 
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AscendantAquila

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Apr 17, 2015
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I'm not tauKhan, but I would say that if you are in a position to have to do multiple SDI inputs you are kinda screwed and should try to DI the throw better. As far as resetting the stick v. QC SDI, resetting is good because it gives you two inputs in the same direction (Not consecutive frames I believe) rather than down left and up left, but it is IMO harder on Uair because you have three frames to SDI so IIRC this means that you have to SDI on the first possible frame and reset the next and SDI the last possible frame. Quarter Circle is more lenient but doesn't give the same direction on the SDI. I recommend quarter circle di because it's easier for me but if resetting the stick is easier and you have success with it, go for it.
 
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