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How to hit with Lucas's spikes

Aevin

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 9, 2008
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Oregon
Seems to be a lot of confusion on when exactly these moves spike, especially the back air. I haven't seen a really clear explanation, (and I've ended up changing the explanations in my guide about three times), so I figured I'd try to clear it up.

The down air, for me, is the easiest to spike with, but it's not as powerful as the back air. The spike occurs at the fourth (final) hit at the very tip of Lucas's foot. You can hit with this by performing it above opponents as they jump or use a recovery move into it. I find it easiest to spike with when I use my jump and start the move as I rise. This should cause the first three hits in the move to stun the opponent in place while Lucas rises, placing the final hit right on target. If the move does not spike, it means the opponent is too far up when the final hit happens. Try positioning Lucas a little higher so just the tip of his foot connects with them. If your opponent's body makes contact with your own during the final hit, the spike will miss.

The back air is the one which seems to have the most confusion. Unfortunately, I find it really difficult to explain. For me, it's easiest to think of Lucas's back air as a half-hour portion of a clock. He begins the kick on the hour, and ends it at the thirty minute mark. The spike occurs from about the ten minute mark to about the twenty minute mark. However, in order to spike, you must hit with the very tip of his foot--not with the sparks, and definitely not further in toward his body. The very tip of his foot. You can actually see the area the spiking portion covers clearly in practice mode. Set the camera to zoom and the speed to 1/4, then perform Lucas's back air. You should see the sparks start right at the ten minute mark. Right at that point, Lucas's foot will extend. His foot then performs the kick until about the twenty minute mark before pulling back in to his body. You can only spike when Lucas's foot is extended. This attack can hit opponents at the uppermost and lowermost points, but for the spike you must hit your opponent with the very tip of Lucas's foot while his leg is extended--that is, anywhere from ten minutes to twenty minutes. Got it?

I find this is easiest if I'm falling toward an opponent from above. Be careful with the spacing so the opponent doesn't end up touching Lucas's body--opponents coming too close is the number one way of missing the spike. Perform the back aerial as you move down toward your opponent, aiming to hit with the 15 minute mark. This should give you a small margin of error either way in which the opponent will still be spiked. For practice, use a practice dummy set to "jump." Time your jump so you end up above them, performing the back air so that they jump right into the tip of Lucas's foot as it hits fifteen minutes.

In the case of either spike, do not aim to hit with the sparks of energy, and do not let the opponent touch Lucas's body. Hit with the tip of the foot only.

Hope this helps, and sorry if this has been covered in depth before.
 

GofG

Smash Champion
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This is the kind of post where diagrams would be helpful. I don't suppose you'd want help making them?
 

Aevin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
346
Location
Oregon
Lucas's Back Air:


I'm a terrible artist, but that's the idea. The spike actually extends slightly beyond what I'm calling the twenty minute mark, I believe. You can spike opponents above you, but it's pretty tricky to do. The hardest part is spacing yourself so you don't hit the opponent too close to L-boy's body (the light blue area).

GofG - If you'd like to make a clearer or nicer-looking diagram you're welcome to., and if you have others in mind I'd be pleased to help.
 

Powda

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 20, 2007
Messages
154
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Vegas
Just a minor detail, it's not exactly hitting them with the tip of your foot...the tip of your foot hits them no matter what...what he means is the move has to make first contact with the character when it's at 10 min to 20 min. If you have already made contact before then, a spike will not occur.

Not a huge detail but the tip thing can be confusing to some :p
 

Aevin

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I mean that you should hit them ONLY with the tip of the foot--not only with the sparks and not too far in toward his body.
 

chubb-o-wub

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Feb 24, 2007
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Can you short hop the B-air so that it spikes them when they get to the ledge or attempt a ledge hop?
 

Hose A

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
47
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Naugatuck, Connecticut
Can you short hop the B-air so that it spikes them when they get to the ledge or attempt a ledge hop?
I've done it. It's hard to get the timing down. You have to start the move kind of as you're still rising in the short hop so that you flip enough to get the actual spike. i don't find it very practical though. I like PK Thunder as an edge guard better.
 

pklucas

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 13, 2008
Messages
120
you have no idea how much this helped. at what percentage do you start going for d air spikes? i know it's a lot weaker
 

Aevin

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chub-o-wub: It'd be pretty difficult to hit them while they're hanging, but if they jump up from the ledge the back air usually sends them at enough of an angle away that they'll miss the stage on the way back down.

pklucas: I've used the dair a lot, but never thought too much about the specific percentages it works best at. Anyone else have a good idea?
 

Tyr_03

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Mar 4, 2008
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OH
When I use Dair, it's usually as an approach. Run up, double jump Dair. For most characters they'll rise up with you as you Dair them. You can then DI off the stage if you're close to the ledge and literally drag them for a spike. Takes moderately high percentages to be effective but looks oh so sweet when you do it. Not terribly reliable but I thought I'd mention it.
 

PrivateRolf

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
10
I know this wouldn't necessarily count as a spike, but a horizontal spike, per se.

I just use the d-b to send low recovery people (Ike, Marth, etc) either off the screen or far enough off it they can't recover.

I am working on the spikes.

Thanks for your advice.
 

Aevin

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Just noticed that the down air is a little more flexible than I gave it credit for--you can hit opponents up to about the knee and still send them down.
 

TechnoMonster

Smash Ace
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Mar 9, 2008
Messages
836
The interesting thing about the backair is that you always need to be moving TOWARDS them, either by falling or approaching, to get the spike effect; if you're moving away or staying stationary you'll always miss simply because of the physics and spacing of the spike hit and the nature of the circular hitboxes; you can't be moving away and eligible for a spike without hitting with the first part of the move (non-spiking) or hitting well past the spike part with the horizontal part of the move that has better range.
 

Powda

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Unless you are both in the air and the opponent is actively moving into you right?
 

Aevin

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Yes, that's correct. There just has to be some motion involved of the enemy coming into contact with the hitboxes.
 

Fishcake56

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Tampa, FL
I love Lucas's bair. Something about spiking with it gives me an immense feeling of satisfaction, similar to when sweetspotting with Zelda's fair/bair. I have been able to reliably KO characters at 70% damage with this move, although I can spike light chars when they are as low as 30%. The dair really doesn't compare in terms power, as I have only found it to be reliable when opponents are above 100% damage (assuming the spike hits at the stage horizontal or higher).


In my opinion, spiking with the bair is much easier to accomplish when the controls are not set to b-stick. Excluding momentum carried from the jump, a c-sticked bair does not move you horizontally which is extremely important if you can predict where your opponent is going to be. I usually get a bair spike by jumping off of the stage while positioning myself horizontally, fast-falling, then whipping out a bair as soon as my opponent gets near me.

Interestingly, if you are fighting a fox/falco (and I suppose Ike) who spams side-b to recover, you can spike them out of it at the edge with a short-hopped bair. However, this move required fast reflexes and a firm familiarity with the speed of their side-b.
 

pklucas

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 13, 2008
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his bair is the best... if they are close to the edge you can still spike them and use as an approach
 

Shibby

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Question

How and when do you approach your opponent to perform a B-Air spike?

I "Auto-RAR" with the B-Stick but find it hard to line up with them in the air to do the move. Since they can fast fall or possibly use their recovery move, or even air-dodge. It feels I'm either too high or too low to do the move.

All about timing I guess...
 

pklucas

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i don't b stick and i find it easier to full hop if you have enough time. it's easiest to hit when you hit the apex of your jump
 

Crooked Crow

drank from lakes of sorrow
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Jun 11, 2007
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grab > backthrow to make them off the edge > b-air works okay for me sometimes.
For some reason, I find that I spike more if I fastfall the moment b-air or d-air connects.
Try it out.
 

Demon_Parasite

Smash Cadet
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May 3, 2008
Messages
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I already knew how to do the Dair spike, but that really helped me with the Bair. I always thought you had to hit at the very beginning. No wonder it rarely works :p
 

Jihnsius

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Jun 17, 2004
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Austin, TX
I've noticed that you also have to be nearly horizontally overlapping the opponent for the down-air spike to work, as well. If you're off to either side, the opponent will be sent up and slightly away from whichever side you hit from.

As for the back-air spike, I get the feeling that diagram is a bit off. I've always found it easiest to spike from diagonally below the opponent from around the 5 to 15 minute mark.
 

pklucas

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i've hit at the ten minute mark before but it hits much more consistently at the 15 mark
 

TechnoMonster

Smash Ace
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Mar 9, 2008
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Question

How and when do you approach your opponent to perform a B-Air spike?

I "Auto-RAR" with the B-Stick but find it hard to line up with them in the air to do the move. Since they can fast fall or possibly use their recovery move, or even air-dodge. It feels I'm either too high or too low to do the move.

All about timing I guess...
Never ever do you do this except if it seems like an appropriate way to punish.

Jumping right at people when they're not in some kind if lag is almost always a terrible idea, you really have to mind game it, unless it's Bowser in which case it's b-air city any time he's off the stage.

That said a neat way to go is to jump under them and come up behind them with it, you can get the spike, it's pretty beast.

I like that spike semicombo it's pretty good.
 

Shibby

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Never ever do you do this except if it seems like an appropriate way to punish.

Jumping right at people when they're not in some kind if lag is almost always a terrible idea, you really have to mind game it, unless it's Bowser in which case it's b-air city any time he's off the stage.

That said a neat way to go is to jump under them and come up behind them with it, you can get the spike, it's pretty beast.

I like that spike semicombo it's pretty good.
Ok

It just seems that a curling PKT1 is more effective most of the time than a B-Air attempt.

Must be I need practice.
 

PK Starstorm

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Dec 19, 2007
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449
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In lucas' basement paying rent in doggy treats for
i tried what you all said, and it worked. except, I found out the wole move is a spike. all you have to do is get them caught by his foot. and just the foot. It looks like he snags them, then flicks them to their doom. lol I've almost mastered it. get the positioning right.

I noticed that I caught Peach at the hour mark to all the marks in between, and even the half hour mark too. the whole thing can spike
 

Delgato

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Feb 2, 2008
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10
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Sioux Falls
I use bair most of the time, but I've found that dair works for character like marth or ike or olly that come in from under the stage plane to recover. In stead of SHing off the ledge to meet them, I run off the ledge first and immediately hit the second jump. I've found it is easier to lock them into it, and you get to them faster. It usually hits them with Lucas's knee to shoe range, and because you have upward momentum from the second jump, they get caught into it. Dair always seems to work better with upward momentum than down, and it is much more likely to get the spike at the 4th hit this way
 

Levitas

the moon
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Jul 20, 2007
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if you want to gloat, run off the edge and do a turnaround magnet pull stagespike on that marth. Or the TAMPSS if you want a name for it, lol. (Anyone who's talked to me for long knows that the sarcasm level on that last sentence is higher than can be comprehended by the average bear)

Oh, and yeah, the bair has a nice bit of hitlag to let the opponent know what's (more like who's) going down.
 
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