How to fight marth?

[FlamingForce]

So yeah, he outranges bair by a pretty disgusting distance and throw > tipper kills at 50%, wat do?

 

[See Biscuit]

The best advice I can give is to try to get him off the ledge and nair him into KO and practice DI. Or try to pick up a secondary?
In general it's just not a good matchup.

 

[Prince_Abu]

bair actually outranges marth

 

[FlamingForce]

bair actually outranges marth

Not his fsmash which is what I'm getting killed by everytime I try to bair.
Is there even a way to punish that move on shield?

srsly man Marth is starting to piss me off ;_;, broken ass throw f-smash killing me at 30%

Also what kinda 2ndary kills this guy?

 

[See Biscuit]

I personally have a sheik secondary to avoid Marth dittos whenever I can. But really it's whatever works best for you. Falco is a pretty good matchup too.

 

[Prince_Abu]

Not his fsmash which is what I'm getting killed by everytime I try to bair.
Is there even a way to punish that move on shield?

srsly man Marth is starting to piss me off ;_;, broken *** throw f-smash killing me at 30%

Also what kinda 2ndary kills this guy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-Yr8VW4Ulo

this is how i play the matchup, im pretty confident in it now. i pretty much just focus on grabs and bairs. rest their up b recovery as well.
hopefully this helps u some.

 

[FlamingForce]

Its the aggressive ones I have trouble with, marth fsmash >>>>>>>>> bair. His grab can be crouched but is extremely hard to rest on reaction because its so stupidly quick and its so hard to come down vs marth cos of his huge uair.

I've been practicing alot against Marth but I'm just not getting anywhere >_> It's so ****ing frustrating to lose to that tiara wimp.

 

[Massive]

The biggest thing I can tell you to destabilize an aggressive marth is to wavedash out of shield.

After shield, you can bait fairs and wavedash away to prevent followups, you can wavedash in after an fsmash or any aerial and punish (resting marth's fsmash after wavedashing OoS is so very sweet).

Crouching grabs is fantastic, but it's more useful for training the marth to think you're going to duck his grab (and thereby not bother grabbing) than getting rests.

Marth is also terribly vulnerable to dair > usmash, dair > grab, and usmash in general. Landing behind a marth in shield greatly reduces his options and almost always forces a jump (his only other offensive option is reverse dolphin slash, which is a terrible idea).

Do not be afraid to chase Marth off the stage. A mistimed aerial offstage is a death sentence for marth, especially dair or nair. If you stop his horizontal momentum after he's used his forward b or 2nd jump he's basically dead in the water. Trading a fair with a low dolphin slash recovery usually ends in your favor, and is almost completely advantageous if you can tech reliably.

From marth's perspective: The easiest/safest way to kill a puff is utilt. Most marths experienced in the puff/marth matchup will try to do forward-b > utilt to KO you, so watch out for the first hit of dancing sword. Marth can't really do utilt to you if you're on the ledge, so focus on recovering there if possible, and try to stay lowish when at higher %s to avoid getting hit by it. One of marth's bigger weaknesses in this matchup is that puff's recovery is so good that past about 80%, puff becomes VERY hard to kill other than with utilt. Fsmash can be survived on many stages up to 150% if it is not tippered, and aerials don't kill very early at all.

 

[FlamingForce]

After shield, you can bait fairs and wavedash away to prevent followups

Marth is also terribly vulnerable to dair > usmash, dair > grab, and usmash in general. Landing behind a marth in shield greatly reduces his options and almost always forces a jump (his only other offensive option is reverse dolphin slash, which is a terrible idea).

So he fairs your shield and you WD away? What exactly does that accomplish?

Also I've been trying out dair into stuff but I'm 99% sure that it simply doesn't work against an opponent who knows he can act before you get a move out, it's not gauranteed. atleast not at low %

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

Its the aggressive ones I have trouble with, marth fsmash >>>>>>>>> bair. His grab can be crouched but is extremely hard to rest on reaction because its so stupidly quick and its so hard to come down vs marth cos of his huge uair.

I've been practicing alot against Marth but I'm just not getting anywhere >_> It's so ****ing frustrating to lose to that tiara wimp.

When coming down versus Marth in the air, head off stage so he cannot continue to combo you, if Marth attempts to chase you off the stage get past him, regain stage control, and kill him off of the edgegaurd. Getting away is the first objective when attempting to get back on stage. The second objective is to watch out for the reverse d-air spike hitbox. If Marth approaches recklessly in the air punish him, pound works best because it launches him off stage.

 

[Massive]

So he fairs your shield and you WD away? What exactly does that accomplish?

You can get out of fair pressure that way reasonably well, you can also wavedash (no shield) in under his fair if he is coming in high. If he's being defensive (read: retreating fairs) obviously wavedashing back is unnecessary. Wavedash OoS in general is a fantastic tool against marth due to the lagginess of many of his moves and is one of the things that gives puff a minor advantage in this matchup.

Also I've been trying out dair into stuff

You can throw out dair as a low-ish risk move against people in shield since it has so many hitboxes and subsequently pokes really well. If you actually connect with the meat of it (forcing that tumbly state) you can do basically whatever you want assuming you L-cancel your dair. Usmash is the easiest followup to l-cancelled dair (in my opinion) to perform due to the size of and speed usmash's hitbox.

but I'm 99% sure that it simply doesn't work against an opponent who knows he can act before you get a move out, it's not gauranteed. atleast not at low %

Discretion of the best times to use moves is one of the main things that separates the best players from other players. Since everything in melee is situation and % based, it is very hard to intuitively know what move is the right one at the right time. Nothing is guaranteed.

 

[Sagacious]

First off, I didn't expect my post to be this long. So sorry bout that.

I've never posted before and since I've been researching for weeks about how to defeat Marth as Puff. I finally found this and it's basically my calling so thanks for posting, FlamingForce. Props to picking Puff. I just started playing Melee and maining Jigglypuff three months ago. I FEEL YOUR STRUGGLE.

Alright, so theoretically can't Marth just stand and bait attacks from Puff and constantly punish them as soon as Puff enters his hitbox range?
I haven't been fighting aggressive Marths. In fact, I like fighting aggressive Marths because it's so easy to bait them or find opportunities. I fight an extremely patient Marth. I even reversed roles with him and my grab > fsmash Marth ended up destroying him most the time when he tried Puff.

I've been stuck on this forever, it just seems impossible. The grabs I can get around by crouching sometimes because as Massive mentioned before, the cc rests scare my friend from attempting often. But here's a major issue, the forward smash and forward tilts Marth uses. They just COMPLETELY outrange Puff, if someone spams them of course you can get around it because of the lag in between. But the Marth I fight is patient and smart, he only attacks when I'm in his range.

The options I weigh out:
I'll be on the ground away from Marth, I dip in for a bair. It obviously fails because of his ftilt or fsmash. So instead I sway around in the air looking for opportunity and baiting his attacks. Again, he is still patient and won't attack until I'm close. So that doesn't work.
Okay, so now I'm thinking "I'll just wavedash into him and shield then attack out of shield". However, if he jabs or ftilts (can't remember which one) or simply pokes my shield with down tilts, it leaves me with no choice but to jump oos and attack. The reason this fails is because right when I jump out he can land a perfect fsmash since I'm on the ground a little bit away from him. Sooooo, at this point I go "okay, I'm too far from him then. I have to get INSIDE Marth". But the counter to shielding right next to Marth is that he can grab you and throw you for another forward smash!

God, it's just insane how much thought I've put into this and still I have issues. It makes me feel like I'm just really overlooking something simple and effective to use. Yesterday I fought my friend and managed to pull off a ton of rests out of up airs. Don't even bother asking how I landed the upairs because getting that close to Marth just seems impossible to me. I guess it was just because I punished his mistakes, not because I actually did anything clever or baited him.

The only advice I can give from my experience is to just be as close as ****ing possible and never miss a punish. Missing an aerial on Marth isn't just a mistake, it can be the death of you. This is really broad advice but once you're inside of his sword range and up in his face you can be relentless and combo him. Only problem is..his grabs. Grr.




tl;dr I fight a patient Marth that just waits for me to get in his range and then punishes me with various attacks including ftilits and fsmash. Is it true that the only way you can even hit Marth is by baiting him to make a mistake?

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

I discovered a new technical marth edgegaurd.
Grab edge, let your invulnerabilty wear off.
Marth's soft hit up b will allow you to ledge tech rest Marth, thus making marth more afraid of jigglypuff

 

[Sagacious]

I discovered a new technical marth edgegaurd.
Grab edge, let your invulnerabilty wear off.
Marth's soft hit up b will allow you to ledge tech rest Marth, thus making marth more afraid of jigglypuff

I can't imagine what this looks like, if you can find or make a video of it please post it. I'm extremely interested!

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

I'll get to work on making a vid asap, but it looks amazing and scares the living crap out of marth.

 

[Sagacious]

I'll get to work on making a vid asap, but it looks amazing and scares the living crap out of marth.

Kick ass. Thanks, man. I have a reaaaally tough time with Marth (even edgeguarding him sometimes gets me meteor smashed from his ****ing up-b lol) so I really look forward to it.

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

Biggest thing when facing marth, you don't have to run into his big ******* sword if you don't want to

 

[Sagacious]

Biggest thing when facing marth, you don't have to run into his big ******* sword if you don't want to

Yeah but that leaves him dominant and relying on your approach. What's the best way to approach him if he's waiting for you to run into him? That's my biggest issue.

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

Yeah but that leaves him dominant and relying on your approach. What's the best way to approach him if he's waiting for you to run into him? That's my biggest issue.

No that's no what I'm saying. Choose your moments to complete destroy Marth, let him mess up, call him on his dash dancing and punish accordingly, nair and fair usually beats f-smash and f-tilt and if Marth whiffs an attack, TERMINATE.

 

[IceyBeef]

Since my friend plays marth and I used to play puff, have LOTS of spacing and use lots of bairs. And also dont get worried when your grabbed, since he cant juggle you in anyway.

 

[FlamingForce]

Since my friend plays marth and I used to play puff, have LOTS of spacing and use lots of bairs. And also dont get worried when your grabbed, since he cant juggle you in anyway.

Marth can combo you to hell and back AND tipper you off a throw, if he goes for juggles hes just being silly.

 

[Sagacious]

No that's no what I'm saying. Choose your moments to complete destroy Marth, let him mess up, call him on his dash dancing and punish accordingly, nair and fair usually beats f-smash and f-tilt and if Marth whiffs an attack, TERMINATE.

But that's the thing, if Marth is standing still how will he mess up since he's not attacking? The Marth I fight isn't aggressive. He waits for ME to mess up, if I float around with back airs to bait him to make a mistake he just ends up punishing me spacing.

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

Pound or rollout him

 

[FlamingForce]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2OUy_e20-M

I got a vid of a Marth I struggle against, hopefully folks can give me some advice, this was played through Melee online (Netplay)

 

[IceyBeef]

Marth can combo you to hell and back AND tipper you off a throw, if he goes for juggles hes just being silly.

Well as puff he cant do it for long at all

 

[FlamingForce]

He doesn't have to, he can kill you from like 40%

 

[IceyBeef]

He doesn't have to, he can kill you from like 40%

Ya my point was to him, its difficult do be juggled as puff

 

[Sagacious]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2OUy_e20-M

I got a vid of a Marth I struggle against, hopefully folks can give me some advice, this was played through Melee online (Netplay)

He misspaced an up-b and you didn't rest it. As soon as you hear that noise from the dolphin smash you should think "rest!"

You sometimes just walk around too without attacking. You want to use as many *spaced* bairs as you can to scare him out and bait his attacks. I have netplay so I'd love to play Marth and we can take turns practicing.

I know it's easier said than done but remember: a shielded forward smash can lead to a rest by jumping out of shield.
Also if he shield grabs a lot trick him out by landing in front of his face when he's shielding and crouching. Then when he misses it, it's a free rest. If he dashes at you for grabs then get used to landing and crouching out of no where just to see if he'll come to grab. If he doesn't grab then get off the floor and start bair spacing again. I'm no good Puff but I'm learning and I've been starting to get some weird rests on my friends lately. Including following their tech and resting (if anyone does recovery attack from ledge then oos-rest, if anyone misses a tech on the ground and does get-up attack then oos-rest.)

Rest more, go for the crazy ****. That's how you'll improve. Hungrybox was right when he said grabbing with Puff is essential to rest setups. I found that it's not just good on fast fallers but it's good to throw everyone up. I always throw people left or right towards the off-stage when in reality I think it's best to throw them up so you can follow their landing with an up-air and the just follow their air momentum and rest. Look at all the times in game that someone is vulnerable from moving or they passed a frame inside you. Those are ALL rest opportunities you are missing out on.

 

[FlamingForce]

This MU is actually worse then fox, the more I play it the worse it gets.
Marth is near-impossible to beat.

Also, no grab will ever lead to a rest on marth if he has more then 2 brain cells.

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

Against marth, patience is everything, the mindgames become REAL. There are 2 styles to play against marth. The first is to camp around the edge and force marth off the side and then gimp. The second style is to rush the marth and get close enough that he cannot tipper you, therefore allowing you to crouch cancel any of his attacks on the ground. Marth struggles in the air against everyone, so popping him up with puff will enable you to combo marth, just watch out for the rouge down air coming when marth is attempting to return to the ground.

 

[FlamingForce]

bair actually outranges marth

http://imgur.com/CEjrrqD

 

[Doq]

Against Marth: Do not EVER go to FD. Ban it if you can. NO GOING TO FD.

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

Against Marth: Do not EVER go to FD. Ban it if you can. NO GOING TO FD.

This is my personal experience with Marth. Never, under any circumstance, go to Yoshi's. Ban Yoshi's because randle saves Marth so much, making it much harder to edgegaurd against an attentive Marth, FD is tough but the blastzone is much more forgiving.