How to deal with Pikachu that grabs+edgeguards?

[Flamingo117]

I'm playing against a couple of my friends...and they only use pikachu. All they do is grab and edgeguard like crazy. They don't z cancel, but I suppose they don't need to when they have reasonably good aerials and shield+grab+edgeguard.

I use Yoshi or Fox...so I get edgeguarded like crazy and I can't seem to avoid it. I mainly try to work w combos and don't resort to stupid tactics like that. I also sometimes miss my z-cancel. But every time I attack, Pikachu shields and grabs me immediately. As Yoshi, I haven't gotten shield breakers down.

How do I get better?

 

[Timotheus]

for fox:
if you Approach with an Aerial and he shields the attack, you have the Advantage for grabs or a dair for example. i guess the pikachu plays defensive? don't be too aggressive. try to attack him when he's about to land from a jump. wait and shoot some lasers to Keep him moving. you can also shieldjump to block grabs. be careful because pikachus attacks have much more priority than fox'. don't attack when he's waiting for you

 

[clubbadubba]

I'm playing against a couple of my friends...and they only use pikachu. All they do is grab and edgeguard like crazy. They don't z cancel, but I suppose they don't need to when they have reasonably good aerials and shield+grab+edgeguard.

I use Yoshi or Fox...so I get edgeguarded like crazy and I can't seem to avoid it. I mainly try to work w combos and don't resort to stupid tactics like that. I also sometimes miss my z-cancel. But every time I attack, Pikachu shields and grabs me immediately. As Yoshi, I haven't gotten shield breakers down.

How do I get better?

First off, don't call it a "stupid tactic". Gimping is a legitimate strategy, and by looking down on it you are holding yourself back from avoiding it. When you get gimped you should think "he got me" instead of "well that's stupid", so you don't make excuses instead of try to beat the tactic. Not reflecting anything you said, but that's generally how people function in games. Nothing is "stupid". Except for kirby's uptilt.

As Tim said if you actually land a hit on pika's shield you should be able to follow up and not get grabbed, assuming that you hit their shield right before you hit the ground. Maybe you are hitting their shield so early that by the time you land they are already out of shield stun?

For recovery, more detail about how the edgeguard is usually occurring. Are they jumping out with pikachu to stop you, or are they just using fsmash?

 

[Flamingo117]

for fox:
if you Approach with an Aerial and he shields the attack, you have the Advantage for grabs or a dair for example. i guess the pikachu plays defensive? don't be too aggressive. try to attack him when he's about to land from a jump. wait and shoot some lasers to Keep him moving. you can also shieldjump to block grabs. be careful because pikachus attacks have much more priority than fox'. don't attack when he's waiting for you

So what do you mean I have the advantage for grabs? Like after I dair, I should z-cancel and immediately grab him?
Also what is shieldjump? Sorry, I'm a newbie in the game.

As Tim said if you actually land a hit on pika's shield you should be able to follow up and not get grabbed, assuming that you hit their shield right before you hit the ground. Maybe you are hitting their shield so early that by the time you land they are already out of shield stun?

For recovery, more detail about how the edgeguard is usually occurring. Are they jumping out with pikachu to stop you, or are they just using fsmash?

So for edgeguarding, they do both. When I'm away from the edge, they jump out like crazy and can always get back because of pika's crazy up b.
When I'm close to the edge, it's fsmash.

 

[SheerMadness]

Yah if you hit their shield with an aerial and end up facing them, you should be able to grab before they do anything. Obviously you have to z-cancel properly to achieve this.

 

[clubbadubba]

Basically when you hit their shield, there is a certain amount of shield stun before they can move. You should be able to do something before that shield stun expires. You can grab, or you can try to stun their shield again by using jab/dtilt or maybe some other stuff idk. If you can somehow land behind them they won't be able to grab you, making any pressure you apply be safer.

Fox is tough to get back vs pika, but you do have some tricks at your disposal. #1, you have to try to avoid giving them a chance to jump out and kill you, its just too free. You can avoid this by starting your up-b further from the stage. If you are up high, jump as high as you can, and upb towards the stage and to a height that keeps you out of pika's reach. This should avoid any off stage edgeguard. Now you'll be helplessly falling above the stage (better than being offstage vs pika), at which point you have to control your character and trick pikachu as you are falling so you can land safely on stage or to grabbing the ledge. Commonly known as the "lol where am i gonna fall" recovery.

You can also use downb to slow your fall off stage and keep pikachu guessing as to when you'll be using your jump and upb.

If you're below the stage you're pretty screwed vs pika, but your best bet is probably to not go straight for the edge, as you'll likely get fsmashed. Instead, upb in a more vertical direction so that you finish your up-b offstage and still out of reach of pika's fsmash, but above stage level Hopefully by the time you're falling pikachu has finished his upsmash and has too much lag to do another move. This should allow you to safely grab the edge. Of course, a good pika won't fsmash if you do this, but I'm assuming your friends aren't good pikas.

 

[Flamingo117]

IDK, I'll try that. I try to shield stun by utilting, but somehow he can escape by rolling away or grabing me. Maybe I should grab him first?

I should say that I'm a pretty solid MELEE player. So in melee, grabs aren't that important at least in the way I play so I don't spam it like my friends with pika do. In SSb64, I tend to play a little similarily so I don't grab often...maybe I should.
And one of the guys who play pika is the best in our dorm. He is undefeated...so I guess he's good? Even though he misses a lot of his z-cancel. He's not near tourney level though.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

uptilt on shield is pretty bad, do an aerial into shield then grab

 

[Timotheus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZcob0DDIbs

 

[Battlecow]

^^do not do that

 

[Yobolight]

Well if you are good at reading your opponent's grab and have really good timing, then why not do it?

 

[Battlecow]

because this guy is obviously not at the level where he needs to be trying to shield-jump to avoid these grabs.

 

[Flamingo117]

What about kirby's uptilt on shield? I saw it when Kikoushi played against Isai in Apex 2013. I was wondering why Isai didn't grab Kirby...that's usually what happens to me when I attack someone who is shielding. He always grabs.

 

[Han Solo]

What about kirby's uptilt on shield? I saw it when Kikoushi played against Isai in Apex 2013. I was wondering why Isai didn't grab Kirby...that's usually what happens to me when I attack someone who is shielding. He always grabs.

Kirby's uptilt on shield basically guarantees a shield break. It has that much hitstun.

 

[Flamingo117]

Kirby's uptilt on shield basically guarantees a shield break. It has that much hitstun.

Wow..ok, so I might look into switching to Kirby then. How about Yoshi's utilt? I notice I sometimes get shield-grabbed when I do that...sometimes.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Wow..ok, so I might look into switching to Kirby then. How about Yoshi's utilt? I notice I sometimes get shield-grabbed when I do that...sometimes.

It has bad ending lag/not too much stun so no it cannot. One of the bigger issues with Yoshi (especially before you learn how to DJC) is that his u-tilt is not safe.
Though it is still incredibly useful outside of vs. Jiggs, Kirby, and Pikachu (all to an extent)
The issue for many Yoshi players is that they u-tilt too much.

To add to before, the best u-tilt is Kirby by far. It is probably the single best move in the entire game in terms of usefulness due to it's ability to combo into itself/shield break on its own/to anti-air/has massive priority/has a giant disjointed hitbox
It is possibly the best move in the entire series outside of (maybe) Metaknight's shuttle loop

 

[Flamingo117]

It has bad ending lag/not too much stun so no it cannot. One of the bigger issues with Yoshi (especially before you learn how to DJC) is that his u-tilt is not safe.
Though it is still incredibly useful outside of vs. Jiggs, Kirby, and Pikachu (all to an extent)
The issue for many Yoshi players is that they u-tilt too much.

To add to before, the best u-tilt is Kirby by far. It is probably the single best move in the entire game in terms of usefulness due to it's ability to combo into itself/shield break on its own/to anti-air/has massive priority/has a giant disjointed hitbox
It is possibly the best move in the entire series outside of (maybe) Metaknight's shuttle loop

Good to know. Thanks!
But I saw Prince and Isai using Yoshi's u-tilit on shields. Is it because in Japanese version Yoshi's utilt is a shield-breaker?

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

yoshi uptilt is great on shield when it's fresh

 

[The Star King]

idk what Koro is talking about (ever) but Yoshi's utilt is quite a safe move (not as much as Kirby's, but still, compared to most ground moves yeah). And it IS useful vs Pikachu and Kirby. I'll agree with some players using it too much though.

 

[Flamingo117]

If you're below the stage you're pretty screwed vs pika, but your best bet is probably to not go straight for the edge, as you'll likely get fsmashed. Instead, upb in a more vertical direction so that you finish your up-b offstage and still out of reach of pika's fsmash, but above stage level Hopefully by the time you're falling pikachu has finished his upsmash and has too much lag to do another move. This should allow you to safely grab the edge. Of course, a good pika won't fsmash if you do this, but I'm assuming your friends aren't good pikas.

What can I do if I'm Kirby and below stage? I feel like as Pika it is so easy to edge guard Kirbs because if I'm above, Pika jumps and uairs, which has preference over Kirby's fair. And when I'm below, Pika just fsmashes.

 

[The Star King]

If your friend is FSmashing you can try to bait it out, wait it out, and grab the edge right afterwards.