How to deal with Order Tackle in Doubles

[Piford]

So it appears many doubles rulesets haven't actually addressed how to approach the glitch with order tackle and reflectors. There are many ideas throwing around about how to deal with it, so I'm going to split the ideas into bad and good approaches to dealing with it.

Bad
Ban Custom Olimar
Ban Order Tackle
Ban Olimar in doubles
Ban Custom moves

Good
Ban Order Tackle in doubles
Ban the use of Olimar with Order Tackle and a character with a reflector
Ban the glitch
Leave things alone

I'd support banning the glitch as the best way. If someone performs the glitch, they are immediately disqualified from the tournament. I can understand wanting to just ban order tackle in doubles for the simplicity of it.
I now say leave things alone until further notice.

Edit:

Video Explanation
Example of use in tournament

 

[Ansou]

I'd say banning Order Tackle in doubles seems like the easiest way to do it. It's easier to control than banning the glitch itself.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'd support simply banning Order Tackle in doubles for the sheer simplicity. Banning the glitch would be better but opens the door to "did he really mean to do this" and that's a road I'm not interested in traveling.

Before it was fixed, how did people address the Thunder + Oil Panic doubles combo? We may be able to draw ideas from that.

 

[Takezo]

A very interesting! o A o

Never had i saw this glitch. May you provide a video?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

A very interesting! o A o

Never had i saw this glitch. May you provide a video?

Here's a gfycat. Watch Olimar and Luigi.

 

[Piford]

I'd support simply banning Order Tackle in doubles for the sheer simplicity. Banning the glitch would be better but opens the door to "did he really mean to do this" and that's a road I'm not interested in traveling.

Before it was fixed, how did people address the Thunder + Oil Panic doubles combo? We may be able to draw ideas from that.

They banned the use of Pikachu and Game and Watch mostly, although some tournaments required you to use a certain custom down B (I think it was efficient panic) to use the combination.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

They banned the use of Pikachu and Game and Watch mostly, although some tournaments required you to use a certain custom down B (I think it was efficient panic) to use the combination.

Banning Olimar + reflectors in doubles would be a bit more clumsy and complex, but it's discrete and workable. But there would need to be some research done on what reflectors actually work for this purpose. (Ness's bat? Mario's Cape? Palutena's Reflect Barrier?)

 

[Takezo]

Here's a gfycat. Watch Olimar and Luigi.

Yes. perhaps this is large problem. o - o

Very unusual

 

[Piford]

Banning Olimar + reflectors in doubles would be a bit more clumsy and complex, but it's discrete and workable. But there would need to be some research done on what reflectors actually work for this purpose. (Ness's bat? Mario's Cape? Palutena's Reflect Barrier?)

The original video did a good job at showing which reflects work. Some like Palutena's reflect hardly do anything, while others like Fox's make a huge difference. It's a spectrum.

 

[HeroMystic]

The power amplification largely depends on the damage modifier the reflector gives.

 

[Ulevo]

Could someone post the link to the original glitch itself so people can orient themselves behind what is happening and why it's happening?

 

[HeroMystic]

Could someone post the link to the original glitch itself so people can orient themselves behind what is happening and why it's happening?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ck9xVH3JKM

 

[Ulevo]

Just ban Order Tackle in doubles. It's the most discreet ruling and handles the problem. My opinion.

 

[Unknownkid]

Apparently, MetaKnight's Up Throw (and only Metaknight - sorry Kirby and Charizard) can kill all the Pikman. Make the opponents have to reset the glitch again. I am looking for the video right now.

But yeah we might need to ban Order Tackle in Doubles.

Edit: Found it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJJVXZJ5ayo
MK's Upthrow separate the pikman and you can manually attack them as shown.

 

[popsofctown]

When I saw "How to deal with" I thought it might be a guide to actually trying to test counterstrategies before banning. Seems I'm mistaken.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Ban the use of Olimar with Order Tackle and a character with a reflector

If you're going to ban anything, you should do this.

I think these sorts of rules should be as nonrestrictive as possible. No need to ban the move in pairings where it can't mess anything up.

 

[Piford]

When I saw "How to deal with" I thought it might be a guide to actually trying to test counterstrategies before banning. Seems I'm mistaken.

I can't really think of any way to stop this from happening in a match apart from separating olimar and fox (or other character with reflector at all cost.

 

[Jaxas]

When I saw "How to deal with" I thought it might be a guide to actually trying to test counterstrategies before banning. Seems I'm mistaken.

Hey look advertising time!

I'm adding this strategy to the list over at the Community Reference: Dealing with Jank thread, just as a heads up.

 

[popsofctown]

I can't think of a way to avoid a frame one kill move that can be used both in the air and on the ground except by camping with lasers or bombs, but somehow beating Rest is easier in practice than in theory.

Olimar glitch might be OP in doubles, but I'd like to see it in practice first.

 

[Piford]

I can't think of a way to avoid a frame one kill move that can be used both in the air and on the ground except by camping with lasers or bombs, but somehow beating Rest is easier in practice than in theory.

Olimar glitch might be OP in doubles, but I'd like to see it in practice first.

Well I mean we saw it with ZeRo and Dabuz; although, they were going to win anyways. It is a very easy to use strategy that has huge reward as you get 3 OHKO moves at a time. Basically to avoid it, you gotta keep olimar and fox separated. If Olimar gets the Pikmin, then avoid getting hit as you would basically every other attack.

 

[thehard]

It's fine to ban it in doubles, as long as people realize when/if its glitch is patched it is unbanned with no questions asked

 

[digiholic]

I think Order Tackle should be banned in doubles, and only in doubles. It's the smallest discrete enforceable ban that can remove the situation. Banning the glitch is too subjective, banning the Order Tackle+reflector is a bit unwieldy. This is the only case that a move should be banned, though, is when there is a literal game-breaking bug in a move.

 

[Piford]

Apparently Dabuz and ZeRo say it's not actually that viable of a strategy, and that actually attempting to win though playing well would be better than abusing this tactic. I guess this was an over reaction.

 

[popsofctown]

Apparently Dabuz and ZeRo say it's not actually that viable of a strategy, and that actually attempting to win though playing well would be better than abusing this tactic. I guess this was an over reaction.

But I'm always the crazy one for wanting evidence.

 

[deepseadiva]

It's fine to ban it in doubles, as long as people realize when/if its glitch is patched it is unbanned with no questions asked

I would say "duh you don't even need to say that".

But we did keep the Bowser suicide clause even though port priority was removed from Smash 4... >___>

 

[Piford]

But I'm always the crazy one for wanting evidence.

Yeah come on no one needs evidence when we can prematurely ban everything! But actually though this glitch does still seem a bit outrageous, but also it should be patched very soon seeing as they have been pretty good with patching these things and Mewtwo is about to come out.

 

[Unknownkid]

Apparently Dabuz and ZeRo say it's not actually that viable of a strategy, and that actually attempting to win though playing well would be better than abusing this tactic. I guess this was an over reaction.

I guess Dabuz and ZeRo were right. One team tried to pull off the glitch at the Las Vegas Tournament and got beaten by an incompatible team (FOW and Tyrant) who later won the double tournament.

 

[Sodo]

Aren't G&W and Pikachu banned as a Doubles team? Why not just ban Olimar and Fox/Falco teams? Unless of course, the Order Tackle glitch works with things like Mario's Cape.

 

[Unknownkid]

It works with all the reflectors.

 

[Ulevo]

I guess Dabuz and ZeRo were right. One team tried to pull off the glitch at the Las Vegas Tournament and got beaten by an incompatible team (FOW and Tyrant) who later won the double tournament.

Things aren't a problem until they become a problem. I'm fine with Order Tackle not being banned in doubles, but just because Zero and Dabuz say its fine doesn't mean it won't become a problem later. So I say let this stay in the competitive environment until it proves to be an issue.

 

[Unknownkid]

Things aren't a problem until they become a problem. I'm fine with Order Tackle not being banned in doubles, but just because Zero and Dabuz say its fine doesn't mean it won't become a problem later. So I say let this stay in the competitive environment until it proves to be an issue.

I still think it is an issue and it should be banned similar to Pikachu/GnW combination. I disappoint that our community will stoop so low to use that glitch to win some Double Tournament. I just glad it is not an auto win. Competent players can beat this but for how long? Time will tell like you said.

I also believe the MLG Ball (Lucario's Snaring Aura Sphere + Villager's Pocket) should be banned too.

 

[Sodo]

It works with all the reflectors.

Thanks for the clarification. In that case I'm torn on the subject. I want the game to be as diverse as possible so I'm usually against bans but if this is going to define the Doubles meta this is an issue.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Thanks for the clarification. In that case I'm torn on the subject. I want the game to be as diverse as possible so I'm usually against bans but if this is going to define the Doubles meta this is an issue.

I saw it used on stream the other day (not the Zero/Dabuz team) and the commentators were aghast. Well, one was aghast and couldn't believe it was allowed at the tournament, the other couldn't stop laughing once Olimar came back from a 4-1 total stock deficit and won.

 

[Zzuxon]

I'd say the best way to go would be to ban a team of order tackle olimar and a character with a reflector. Keeps maximum freedom, especially since I've heard order tackle is a worthwhile move outside of the glitch.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

The reason that the ThunderBucket strat was banned was because it didn't require any setup time. You simply had Pikachu use Thunder and GnW's bucket would fill instantly. I believe they changed the properties of Thunder in a patch to address this issue, so ThunderBucket is now not that big of an issue.

MLG ball is a different issue because its effectiveness still requires the move to be fully charged for it to be effective. It's not a super cheap tactic that gives instant wins. You can do the same sort of thing for Samus's slow charge ball as well.

Concerning Order Tackle, for simplicity's sake I just have it banned because it is a verifiable glitch. It's definitely a weird unintended interaction between Pikmin and Reflectors and Order Tackle. Sure, it may not be an insta-win, but it is an unintended effect of moves that I feel is worth banning until a patch fixes the knockback multiplier for attached pikmin when using Order Tackle.

 

[Ulevo]

The reason that the ThunderBucket strat was banned was because it didn't require any setup time. You simply had Pikachu use Thunder and GnW's bucket would fill instantly. I believe they changed the properties of Thunder in a patch to address this issue, so ThunderBucket is now not that big of an issue.

MLG ball is a different issue because its effectiveness still requires the move to be fully charged for it to be effective. It's not a super cheap tactic that gives instant wins. You can do the same sort of thing for Samus's slow charge ball as well.

Concerning Order Tackle, for simplicity's sake I just have it banned because it is a verifiable glitch. It's definitely a weird unintended interaction between Pikmin and Reflectors and Order Tackle. Sure, it may not be an insta-win, but it is an unintended effect of moves that I feel is worth banning until a patch fixes the knockback multiplier for attached pikmin when using Order Tackle.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree it is an unintended effect. However, banning it on the basis of it being easily identifiable as such to me sets up a dangerous precedent for future cases. Not all unintended mechanics are bad or worthy of being removed. Some of them can prove beneficial. And some of the time we can't actually discern whether or not they were intentional. This creates murky water in terms of what are acceptable conditions on which we should be banning things.

 

[DavemanCozy]

what about banning customs in doubles? I don't believe you listed this, you only put global customs ban. Just an option I've seen floating around that you didn't list.

I personally think that doubles is not fun with Customs after having played some matches, so I won't be entering any 2v2 customs events anyways. How you all address this for dubs is up to you.

I advice caution if you're banning specific moves. In theory a group of smart people will be able to tell the difference of what is game breaking and what isn't, but there are a lot of people out there who will scream as soon as they see a black cat, they'd rather avoid it than cross paths with it. Be careful to not make a game

 

[Teh Sandwich]

This is much different than filling gnw's bucket. This order tackle glitch lasts as long as those pikmin are alive. So after you pull off the glitch, oli can keep getting 1 hit ko's the whole match.