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How to balance L-canceling?

W¡ndy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
63
Yet It seems unfair that there is no advantage to not air cancling. making it kind of pointless
Its like this example

you see two roads. one of them has a quick sand pit and a warning sign on it while the other side has a golden walkway that gives you free candy if you walk on it if you hold your finger up

they both to go the same place at the same time. so whats the point of the first road existing.
 

Blarg I'm Dead

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
105
Location
Colorado State University
I come back and people are actually taking their time to discuss something as stupid as l-canceled ground moves... and we have more "b-b-but why not l-cancel?" leads for debate. I've had enough internet for today.
 

ShadowGanon

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 29, 2013
Messages
1,120
Location
Washington
Yet It seems unfair that there is no advantage to not air cancling. making it kind of pointless
Its like this example

you see two roads. one of them has a quick sand pit and a warning sign on it while the other side has a golden walkway that gives you free candy if you walk on it if you hold your finger up

they both to go the same place at the same time. so whats the point of the first road existing.
The way I see it, l-canceling separates the casual players from the competitive players. It's a beginner-advanced technique. But, yeah, there really isn't any point in not l-canceling. It's like, "You can have this candy bar, or not. You choose."
 

JOE!

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
8,075
Location
Dedham, MA
I come back and people are actually taking their time to discuss something as stupid as l-canceled ground moves... and we have more "b-b-but why not l-cancel?" leads for debate. I've had enough internet for today.
Its more like, its stated as adding depth... but how is depth gained by something that may as well be automatic given it is assumed everyone does it whenever possible / it's only downfall is human error?
 

Dng3

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 14, 2008
Messages
129
How is this thread not closed yet? lol I thought it was in the forums rules to not discuss this topic anymore, as it usually leads nowhere.

However, I like the idea of having a mode to turn on and off auto-cancelling.
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
Its more like, its stated as adding depth... but how is depth gained by something that may as well be automatic given it is assumed everyone does it whenever possible / it's only downfall is human error?

I actually responded to you the first time you posed this question, but you seemed to have missed it. Let me re-post what I stated earlier.

When comparing L-Cancelling to auto L-Cancelling, it has to be understood that the former is literally adding something to the game. The extra input might be arbitrary, but that was one more input the player has to perform; one more variable that interacts with other variables.

Consider:

Two groups of people are playing chess.

One group has no restrictions, while the other group has put a two minute time limit on each turn.

By adding the time limit, depth has effectively been added to game. The creation of external pressure could potentially affect player decision making and made speed a valuable skill.

If you really want to get philosophical about it, a timer is no more arbitrary than requiring a player to L-Cancel. However, whatever annoyance they provide, they ultimately give more to the game than their absence would. And yes, this goes beyond giving a player something to "mess up." L-Cancelling affects player's reaction time, enhances shield angling, contributes to the game's technical/mental duality, etc.
The contributions L-Cancelling provides for the game are actually pretty nuanced and deeper than you think. You can't simplify it and say that perfectly executed L-Cancelling and automated L-Cancelling are identical because they aren't.
 

prisoner

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
35
Location
canada
itt: everyone pretends they're game developers.

L cancelling should be left alone. it works exactly as intended. one thing I find intriguing, though, is auto-cancelling and IASA frames.

here's an interesting and relevant topic over on the DK forum that you should read: understanding auto-cancels and IASA concerning upair/bair

... and an important excerpt if you're THAT kind of person (credit to SpiderMad):

Different moves for certain characters have varying amounts of IASA and Auto-cancel timings, Donkey Kong's Bair and Up-air demonstrate this well. His Bair has IASA frames earlier than his Up-air (32 vs 38) but Auto-cancels much later (20 vs 13). This means that after performing a SH bair you can waveland out of it because of the early IASA, where with Up-air you cannot. But Up-air with its shorter Auto-cancel means Up-air can be Fastfalled sooner from a SH and still Auto-cancel where with Bair if you Fastfalled it as early as possible from a SH you would not land after the Auto-cancel frames had become active and instead go into the Aerial's landing lag.
keeping that in mind, this is DK's air kit at a glance:

nair - quick, medium attack with good close-range coverage. low risk even if you whiff an l-cancel.
fair - slow, heavy kill move with high risk, really ought to be l-cancelled.
dair - slow, heavy spike with high risk, also should be l-cancelled.
bair - quick medium attack, his best spacing tool. ideally interrupted or auto-cancelled.
uair - quick medium attack, his best juggling tool. ideally auto-cancelled.

one gets an idea for the synergy at play with this kit: he has two moves that require l-cancelling to use properly, one that won't punish you too hard if you whiff (you hope), and two more specialised moves that can be l-cancelled, interrupted or auto-cancelled depending on what the player needs to accomplish.

I hope you can see what I'm getting at here; the debate in this thread is missing the forest for the trees. you can't alter the mechanic of l-cancelling and expect it to bring more balance, fun and engagement to the game -- it's just not worth talking about. auto-cancels and IASA are already here and working wonderfully with l-cancelling to create a robust and varied air game.
 

JOE!

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
8,075
Location
Dedham, MA
I actually responded to you the first time you posed this question, but you seemed to have missed it. Let me re-post what I stated earlier.



The contributions L-Cancelling provides for the game are actually pretty nuanced and deeper than you think. You can't simplify it and say that perfectly executed L-Cancelling and automated L-Cancelling are identical because they aren't.
Sorry for the late reply, been stuck to just a phone as of late heh.

Anyways, there is a key difference you overlook in your timer comparison (while a good one), in that the timer encompasses all actions and is a mandatory part of the game. Lcanceling only exists for one action out of hundreds: landing during an aerial attack, and even then missing one is not always a penalty based on both enemy (in)action or the move simply either spacing the foe too far to punish/koing outright. The timer dictates all actions, and running over it will either always result in a penalty or even straight loss.

A smallish, but important distinction.

Going back to actions for a moment, while it does happen often, I do find it sort of odd that only landing an aerial has an added cancel input. Why not extend it to grabs so that you always have to jump cancel a grab for it to be fast (20 frames normal, 10 jc'd let's say). This would accomplish the same feat as Lcancel does currently, for a different action, and even has some of the same weakness in that screwing up leads to either slower action or unintended input (jump vs shield/dodge). Most however would not be happy with such a change, but why?

Let's look at the one actual bit of depth Lcancel can provide: it gives a way for players to mess up and be punished. Oddly, the depth really comes from the human element of when you *don't* Lcancel. Given it is a near required input to do fast offense, no matter how good you are you will mess up the added input eventually, and your mistake could give momentum to your foe. Lcanceling allows you to, in a sense, avoid mistakes as it makes your options safer. However, what does this mean for those who don't or at least rarely mess up an Lcancel? At that point, it may as well be auto if the execution is no longer a barrier to them, and the depth of making a mistake in a missed cancel shrinks phenominally if not disappears.

Back to the grab, people wouldn't like that because it'd add yet another area where they could make a mistake and thus be worse, just like Lcanceling. People who master it may as well not even know the punishment of failing it exists while simply providing a buffer of time to those not at that level for no real reason other than dedication it seems.

To sum up, Lcanceling adds depth in that it provides a means to swing momentum in rare circumstances when the player messes up, but only on a specific action in a certain scenario. Without it, gameplay may have less punishes from aerial assaults, but how often did this occur vs those who never/rarely messed up anyways?
 

guedes the brawler

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
1,076
Location
Brazil. Sadly. Living here SUCKS!
NNID
Rafabrawl
okay guys, and what about my suggestions from the OP? I know nobody will actually change those things for PM, but which do you think would be a fair solution to what i proposed (namely, give a reason that people might opt to NOT L-cancel due to a certain penality over it).

... i feel like i might try this topic at the SSB4 board soon, since here i go ignored and it's all about auto-canceling.
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
Sorry for the late reply, been stuck to just a phone as of late heh.

Anyways, there is a key difference you overlook in your timer comparison (while a good one), in that the timer encompasses all actions and is a mandatory part of the game. Lcanceling only exists for one action out of hundreds: landing during an aerial attack, and even then missing one is not always a penalty based on both enemy (in)action or the move simply either spacing the foe too far to punish/koing outright. The timer dictates all actions, and running over it will either always result in a penalty or even straight loss.

A smallish, but important distinction.

Going back to actions for a moment, while it does happen often, I do find it sort of odd that only landing an aerial has an added cancel input. Why not extend it to grabs so that you always have to jump cancel a grab for it to be fast (20 frames normal, 10 jc'd let's say). This would accomplish the same feat as Lcancel does currently, for a different action, and even has some of the same weakness in that screwing up leads to either slower action or unintended input (jump vs shield/dodge). Most however would not be happy with such a change, but why?

Let's look at the one actual bit of depth Lcancel can provide: it gives a way for players to mess up and be punished. Oddly, the depth really comes from the human element of when you *don't* Lcancel. Given it is a near required input to do fast offense, no matter how good you are you will mess up the added input eventually, and your mistake could give momentum to your foe. Lcanceling allows you to, in a sense, avoid mistakes as it makes your options safer. However, what does this mean for those who don't or at least rarely mess up an Lcancel? At that point, it may as well be auto if the execution is no longer a barrier to them, and the depth of making a mistake in a missed cancel shrinks phenominally if not disappears.

Back to the grab, people wouldn't like that because it'd add yet another area where they could make a mistake and thus be worse, just like Lcanceling. People who master it may as well not even know the punishment of failing it exists while simply providing a buffer of time to those not at that level for no real reason other than dedication it seems.

To sum up, Lcanceling adds depth in that it provides a means to swing momentum in rare circumstances when the player messes up, but only on a specific action in a certain scenario. Without it, gameplay may have less punishes from aerial assaults, but how often did this occur vs those who never/rarely messed up anyways?

Thank you for the response.

However, I think you may have missed my point. The main idea I was trying to convey is that L-cancelling adds depth beyond the circumstances of messing it up. When I was drawing the comparison between a timer and L-Cancelling, the only relationship I was trying to establish between them is that they both create a restraint for the player. Granted, one is on a macro level while the other is micro, but what is important is that they are both creating a restraint.

You see, your main argument is that L-Cancelling adds depth by punishing players who don't do it, but this depth is lost when mistakes become negligible.

However, as I stated earlier, auto-L-Cancelling and a player who can L-Cancel 100% of the time are NOT identical. The human mind and your body's ability to respond to its commands are limited and your actions cannot be considered "automated" in the slightest. On the last page, I explained how L-Cancelling affects your reaction time. This is because the habitual action of L-Cancelling is the first thing on your mind after initiating an aerial; not how the opponent reacts. So even if a player was able to perfectly L-Cancel 100% of the time, they still have more restraints on them than someone with auto L-cancelling because they aren't a robot and can only do so many things at once.

Another aspect about L-Cancelling which hasn't really been addressed is that it contributes to the technical and mental duality of this game. As stated earlier, one of the best aspects of L-Cancelling is its obvious benefits to new players. Mind games, dash dancing, and other movement techniques will seem nebulous to most beginners. In fact, you could compare L-Cancelling to quarter circle and dragon punch inputs from most traditional fighters; both pose interesting mechanical challenges to new players while offering clear advantages to those who master them. By giving players something to practice that doesn't require additional players or is tied to mental concepts far above their level, you are immediately rewarding improvement and thus, the game more interesting. L-Cancelling, and to some extent, Wavedashing are like the gateway drugs into making players realize: "whoa, this game is actually really deep"

okay guys, and what about my suggestions from the OP? I know nobody will actually change those things for PM, but which do you think would be a fair solution to what i proposed (namely, give a reason that people might opt to NOT L-cancel due to a certain penality over it).

... i feel like i might try this topic at the SSB4 board soon, since here i go ignored and it's all about auto-canceling.
The problem is that you are addressing L-Cancelling as if its an action when it isn't. It is actually a execution based input similar to pressing the A button or moving the analog stick with the correct amount of pressure. I explained this on the 2nd page I think.
 

guedes the brawler

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
1,076
Location
Brazil. Sadly. Living here SUCKS!
NNID
Rafabrawl
The problem is that you are addressing L-Cancelling as if its an action when it isn't. It is actually a execution based input similar to pressing the A button or moving the analog stick with the correct amount of pressure. I explained this on the 2nd page I think.
Honestly, i don't think i fully understood your explanation, and i also forgot about it (sorry). but even if that is the case, why not change it from execution to action? I suppose such thing isn't feasible in PM, which is understandable. I guess this really belongs in the SSb4 board as it's mechanics are bogus and can be discussed as blank slates... though if any mod is seeing this, please wait until (maybe) an explanation about the action vs execution is done again before closing this. (sorry again...)
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
Honestly, i don't think i fully understood your explanation, and i also forgot about it (sorry). but even if that is the case, why not change it from execution to action? I suppose such thing isn't feasible in PM, which is understandable. I guess this really belongs in the SSb4 board as it's mechanics are bogus and can be discussed as blank slates... though if any mod is seeing this, please wait until (maybe) an explanation about the action vs execution is done again before closing this. (sorry again...)

Its fine. To reiterate, recognizing L-Cancelling as execution means that it doesn't have to have a pro/con relationship like an action. For instance, if you are trying to do a forward smash, there shouldn't be any incentive to press the wrong buttons/directions and make an incorrect input. This extends to L-Cancelling. If you are trying to do an aerial, there is no incentive to make any incorrect inputs AND miss your L-Cancel. L-Cancelling is working exactly as its intended. If you are looking for "balance" that t
would be tied directly to the aerial attack. There are a times when you should fair, nair, dair, etc.

If L-Cancelling WERE made into an action, I suppose that would be interesting, but then you might have some balancing dilemmas and it might not meet the vision of this project.
 

Kati

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
1,471
I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed down...

But seriously, l-cancelling does not present a balance issue. It is an input available to every character. No one argues that the c-stick or any other universal feature is unbalanced.
 

GP&B

Ike 'n' Ike
Joined
May 8, 2009
Messages
4,609
Location
Orlando, FL
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MetalDude
StrongBad stated earlier in the thread that the discussion was banned because of the limited space for thread discussion related to P:M. This is no longer the case though.
 

Dng3

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 14, 2008
Messages
129
Ah that explains everything. And here I thought the pmbr was actually considering the ideas in here =p
 

DireDrop

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
332
Location
Lake Geneva, WI
I'm pretty sure the PMBR is fed up with L-canceling discussions. This is on their Faq:

"Despite the fact that Manual L-Canceling has been in this game for over 3 years and I’ve been unsuccessful so far, I am going to continue to argue against Manual L-Canceling and demand Aerial Lag Reduction instead. Am I going to win?
No. It will also likely lead to you receiving an infraction on SWF. So please, don't."

Granted, OP wasn't trying to argue against L-canceling as it is, he just posed the question to start a discussion about interesting alternatives. It didn't work.
 

theindievisual

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 10, 2010
Messages
6
Why can't auto L cancelling just be a feature like Turbo and we can have tourneys like that for people who want to try it out and see if it's balanced?
 

standardtoaster

Tubacabra
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Messages
9,253
Location
Eau Claire, Wisconsin
I'm pretty sure the PMBR is fed up with L-canceling discussions. This is on their Faq:

"Despite the fact that Manual L-Canceling has been in this game for over 3 years and I’ve been unsuccessful so far, I am going to continue to argue against Manual L-Canceling and demand Aerial Lag Reduction instead. Am I going to win?
No. It will also likely lead to you receiving an infraction on SWF. So please, don't."

Granted, OP wasn't trying to argue against L-canceling as it is, he just posed the question to start a discussion about interesting alternatives. It didn't work.
The FAQ is extremely outdated and needs to be fixed when we get a chance
 

Bleck

Smash Master
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
3,133
I think that the bottom line is that manual L-canceling is a questionable design decision on the whole, in that there are a lot of reasonable arguments for and against the implementation of the mechanic into Project M - or any other Smash Bros. game for that matter - but Project M is meant to emulate the feel and metagame of Melee, which inextricably features manual L-canceling, and as such any arguments about whether or not it should be in Project M at this point, or any point in the future, are moot.
 
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