How to balance L-canceling?

[Spiffykins]

If it is possible to L cancel without messing up your teching as gnosis said (i have no idea if this is the case in either Melee or PM so I'll take his word for it), then I'd say it shouldn't be because although it's still not much of a reason to not L-cancel, it's still something that forces you to be more careful in how you use your aerials and gives the whole setup a reason to exist, other than to arbitrarily inflate the game's technical difficulty.

Might as well call people scrubs for thinking you shouldn't have to recite a Shakespeare sonnet word by word every time you L cancel.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

It would make them simpler, not unpunishable, there are specific fastfall timings for Falco's pillar that influence his landing lag and opinions when landing. Iirc it is broken down into three main categories top- above, mid, and towards the bottom. Spaces would still get punished, everyone would, but it would be harder for mains of ALL characters to mess up their techskill. It would just mean you see the same, once impressive and interesting, pressure and combos become common place and mundane. The difficulty in execution is, imo at least, one of the things that keep smash fresh and interesting, downright beautiful really.

THIS

although it might be pressing one button, its not guaranteed unless you've practiced it enough (like the top players), sure, the whole shield mechanics going against it wouldn't convince many that the mechanic has some depth to it, but just imagine, any guy (me for example) being able to do mango-like shield pressure bc everything is automatically cancelled for me, this seems unfair and seems to over-prioritize attacks against shields. In this instance, i wouldn't have to worry about knowing when to cancel it nor would i have to worry about you punishing me out of shield bc every aerial is cancelled, while the other player has less options yet has to worry about more considering the fact that any fox could bombard him with shield-pressure that you only see from very technical players and yet even they mess up the timings, i think this would be releasing the technical chains on fox and falco, not to mention how easier things would be for them to punish you, like auto-dair -> shinegrab


I just think fox and falco really would be OP if there was auto-cancel in place (just think 2.1 lucario on space steroids), and that the general stigma that the players who use them go auto-pilot will actually be true

 

[CORY]

Also to forestall the Controller Extinction Event.

i think adjusting grab break mechanics would do more to alleviate that than auto cancelling : p

 

[Mansta]

Add auto L-cancels and make L-canceling in that mode have 100% less end-lag, only real option here PMBR.

 

[Banjodorf]

If the PMBR decides they want to please both sides of the L-Cancel debate, the absolute best way to do this is to have an on-off switch for it, like Manual/Automatic mode in Mario Kart (This has been stated above) or Normal/Stylish modes in Blazblue.

I for one never want to have to stop hitting the L button. I just have too much fun with that habit, and I like the higher skill ceiling it allows.

 

[Phaiyte]

The absolute fact is this:

Lowering the skill ceiling THAT hard will turn this game into the garbage heap that Brawl was. The biggest problem people have with Brawl is that the skill ceiling is SO low that even complete scrubs have a chance of beating "the best". In a tournament-centric game, that's literally the dumbest idea of all time. If you don't want to invest the time into getting better, then you don't deserve to be considered better.

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

The absolute fact is this:

Lowering the skill ceiling THAT hard will turn this game into the garbage heap that Brawl was. The biggest problem people have with Brawl is that the skill ceiling is SO low that even complete scrubs have a chance of beating "the best". In a tournament-centric game, that's literally the dumbest idea of all time. If you don't want to invest the time into getting better, then you don't deserve to be considered better.

Okay, we have gimps, tech chasing, punishment, reads, high risk / high reward OOS options, wavedashing, DJC, rising / falling DJ attacks, character specific gimmicks, dash dancing, fox troting, dacus, RAR, and edge guarding.

but god forbid someone L-cancels.
10/10

 

[Yoki]

If L-canceling is the only reason you're better than scrubs, you ain't better than scrubs.

 

[Phaiyte]

Tell that to the Japanese kids that destroyed Ken because he didn't know what L cancelling was at the time.

 

[SpiderMad]

actually, related to this:

getting hit while trying to lcancel can lead to a missed tech input, which means you can't tech for the next 40 frames or whatnot. another incidental side effect to lcancelling.

Isn't teching hard press?

Also I wish P:M had an allowable 1 frame buffer, to make early aerials closer to an acceptable threshold. It's a disadvantage competitively for the person who wouldn't want to turn it on for himself though, but in a much lesser extent than someone with an enabled Auto-Cancel would. So you can only dream.

L-canceling is easy enough that I don't think it creates that much of a skill barrier (compared to other things we either could stand to make better/easier or already have [some due to Brawl's engine, SH button release is more lenient due to it checking the last frame possible rather than Melee's checking 1 frame earlier than it had to: making SH'ing with 3 frame jump squat characters now on a much more comfortable and user friendly level]), and offers more depth than we might think it does for no hand strain in return (only requires a light press, although some people thought it required a hard press and don't change their habits).

I hate stupid artificial crap that makes people just have to waste time and or strain their hands on muscle memory to execute what's in their head and thought process where the real skill lies just due to a bunch of blokes wanting it to be that way in their game, but there has to be somewhat of a balance where you don't take away the skill of timing and execution (within non-straining standards). I currently think L-cancelling might be a necessary evil compared to other dumb stuff in other fighting games and even a few other mechanics in Smash (mashing out of grabs, which ruins control sticks). I believe the window and input method to perform it is comfortable and easy enough for anyone, while still having a fail window to add depth (if you just had to spam L with no fail window that'd be dumb as hell) in quite a bit of situations involving timing and prediction skill rather than muscle memory alone (and then depth in the opponent being aware of punishing missed L-cancels, which he might have played a part in causing to you). There's also things like this lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DavS35HGDE

 

[1MachGO]

The misconception about L-Cancelling:

In games, there are two main operations: Actions and Executions

Execution = button inputs (moving the control stick, pressing A, etc)
Action = the result of button inputs (running, jumping, etc.)

As a player, you have to perform a certain execution to get a desired actionfrom your avatar. This means that player decision making is entirely focused on actions. Actions change the state of the character and thus, offer different advantages and disadvantages. Once a player has decided to perform an action, they are forced toexecuteit in a way that the software is requiring them to.

So when people criticize L-cancelling for not having a risk-reward mechanic, you should ask yourself: is L-cancelling an action or is it a required piece of execution?

My belief is that many people are incorrectly judging L-cancelling on the merits that it is an action. The fact is, L-cancelling is not the same as running, wavedashing, jumping, shielding, etc. L-Cancelling is actually an operation comparable to pressing the A button or moving the analog stick.

Key Idea:When you decide to do an aerial, and for sake of argument, lets say it was a forward aerial, you do not say: "there is no risk reward to pressing the c-stick forward vs. not pressing it forward." This is because you knowingly subscribed to make the correct inputs upon decided to do that action. L-Cancelling is the same thing, you don't L-cancel to put your character in a different state with a risk-reward dynamic,you L-cancel because you chose to perform an aerial near the the ground.

If you are going to criticize L-Cancelling, you need to criticize it on the grounds that it feels arbitrary as an execution based operation.


TL;DR: L-cancelling is really just an extension of executing an aerial; it isn't supposed to have a risk reward relationship so you can't criticize it for lacking one.

 

[CORY]

Tell that to the Japanese kids that destroyed Ken because he didn't know what L cancelling was at the time.

it was di.

 

[Mr.Random]

Anybody really sick of the L cancel debate? This game is trying to replicate Melee's engine. No need to fix what isn't broken. I'm tired of this debate. If you don't like L canceling then go play Brawl.

 

[Taiko]

Personally, I think auto L-cancel would make the game much easier to get into and reduce the time investment needed. If it was me in highschool I'd have the time to play this game all day and build those things into muscle memory, but now that I find myself with less time, I'd rather not have to worry about adding an extra button press to do a combo I had seen. As I get less time to play games, I find myself liking games that respect my time that much more.

Like the OP says, there's literally no downside to doing it, and it's kinda expected, so why not just make it happen automatically? Simplifying the game and making it more accessible can't be a bad thing, it would only give you more people to play against, wouldn't it?

 

[1MachGO]

In a game as complex as this, it is almost impossible to perceive all the interactions between variables both inside and outside the game. Sure, making L-cancelling automatic would have some immediate solutions, but what are the other implications? By removing L-Cancelling, you are removing every micro and macro relationships associated with it. You would lose depth.

 

[Naraku]

Add auto to custom controls. Honestly who wants to mash L every time before you land unless you are a specific character?

 

[Mansta]

I'm pretty sure tournaments would not use it like the frame buffer option, adding an auto L-cancel mode would give people bad habits. It could also show the importance of L-canceling to people, so I don't really know.

 

[guedes the brawler]

why roughly half of the posts are about auto-cancelling... that is not the topic.

 

[Burnsy]

What games other than the smash series gives players the ability to reduce or cancel their landing lag from an aerial attack?

 

[Mansta]

Why are roughly half of the posts are about auto-canceling? That is not the topic.

Because people think that making it auto "balances things" when all that would do is make a bigger

Basically they won't touch L-canceling because it would change too much and would make switching between Melee and PM harder.

 

[CORY]

What games other than the smash series gives players the ability to reduce or cancel their landing lag from an aerial attack?

afaik, most traditional fighters already had lagless landing from aerials (or some basic form of autocancelling), so i think smash is the only one?

 

[DrinkingFood]

afaik, most traditional fighters already had lagless landing from aerials (or some basic form of autocancelling), so i think smash is the only one?

not the only one
depends on the game, slow attacks are not uncommon to have more landing lag while anything else tends to have one certain amount

 

[Burnsy]

not the only one
depends on the game, slow attacks are not uncommon to have more landing lag while anything else tends to have one certain amount

Yes, but do those games give you an ability to influence the landing lag of those moves, especially via a timed input?

 

[DrinkingFood]

not a clue; frankly I don't play other fighters enough to know anything not immediately obvious

 

[JOE!]

Way I see it, it is a weird kind of execution barrier that no other action really has to use: why do only aerials need an extra input to use optimally? Is the only depth gained from when people screw it up? What are really the drawbacks of replacing it with say, auto-lcancel (global reduced end lag)? If stuff then becomes obscene, wouldn't those then get looked at as to why it is bad/toxic as a mechanic now that the "if they mess up" drawback is gone?

 

[TheDevicer]

This was back when MLG owned Smashboards and the only allowed discussion of PM was in a single thread. L-canceling discussion would go on for weeks without end and distract people from actually, you know, discussing Project M. Since we got our own subforum, it isn't really a concern anymore. You're free to discuss L-Canceling and the merits it has as a game mechanic as you'd like.

There was a time where I'd freely bet money on this never coming out of your mouth. It's a brave new world we live in.

 

[Player -0]

Project M statement was to give benefits to people that have technical prowess, more or less anyway.

Ripping... http://projectmgame.com/en/about

Project M hopes to achieve a game similar to Super Smash Bros. Melee in many respects. It does not, however, intend to be a 1:1 Melee clone. The following is a list of the main aspects of Super Smash Bros. Melee that inspired and have carried over into Project M:

• A fast-paced game
• with flowing, natural movement
• where the player has a great degree of control over his character due to the technical skill that he's achieved.
• The balance of offense and defense changes depending on the exact matchup and playstyle, but overall tends to favor offense slightly.
• Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding.
• Recoveries generally require great skill to use, with the advantage usually being with the edgeguarding player, with some exceptions.
• The combos are challenging and spontaneous, with anything longer than 2-3 hits requiring a knowledge of both characters' options and some degree of prediction and/or a deep understanding of the mental aspect of the game.

In short, Project M aims to capture the essence of what made Melee a truly great game in our eyes.

I managed the quotes because I'm awesome, I'm not sure how to merge them the stuff is being weird. If someone will give me the collapse code things then I'll do that here.

 

[1MachGO]

Way I see it, it is a weird kind of execution barrier that no other action really has to use: why do only aerials need an extra input to use optimally? Is the only depth gained from when people screw it up? What are really the drawbacks of replacing it with say, auto-lcancel (global reduced end lag)? If stuff then becomes obscene, wouldn't those then get looked at as to why it is bad/toxic as a mechanic now that the "if they mess up" drawback is gone?

When comparing L-Cancelling to auto L-Cancelling, it has to be understood that the former is literally adding something to the game. The extra input might be arbitrary, but that was one more input the player has to perform; one more variable that interacts with other variables.

Consider:

Two groups of people are playing chess.

One group has no restrictions, while the other group has put a two minute time limit on each turn.

By adding the time limit, depth has effectively been added to game. The creation of external pressure could potentially affect player decision making and made speed a valuable skill.

If you really want to get philosophical about it, a timer is no more arbitrary than requiring a player to L-Cancel. However, whatever annoyance they provide, they ultimately give more to the game than their absence would. And yes, this goes beyond giving a player something to "mess up." L-Cancelling affects player's reaction time, enhances shield angling, contributes to the game's technical/mental duality, etc.

 

[NightShadow6]

The possibility of a person missing it is why it should stay.

If a falcon gets a stomp but doesn't L-cancel for whatever reason, they just missed a chance to take a stock. Thus changing the game by a good margin.

The fact that it can influence a match gives it enough merit for why it should stay.

 

[Deleted member]

Let me ask you guys this - if it was possible, who here would support adding an "L-cancel" to ground moves? Everybody defending L-cancelling here should support such an addition since it would only add depth to the game, right?

 

[GaretHax]

Hi, we are talking about removing a mechanic already in the game, not arguing to absurdities. Currently in Melee there is an additional button involved in the proper execution of aerial moves that, if properly timed, allows a person to cut their lag in half. People often have a hard time getting used to it and even the pro's mess up or are made to mess up by their opponents from time to time, taking it out would eliminate both possibilities permanently and would result in the removal of an integral input involved in the execution of aerials, which constitute most of the combo, pressure, and neutral games in smash. Obviously changing this would impact the game dramatically, however to answer your question I guess I would have a hard time trying to L-cancel my ground attacks right as my character landed.

 

[Player -0]

Hi, we are talking about removing a mechanic already in the game, not arguing to absurdities. Currently in Melee there is an additional button involved in the proper execution of aerial moves that, if properly timed, allows a person to cut their lag in half. People often have a hard time getting used to it and even the pro's mess up or are made to mess up by their opponents from time to time, taking it out would eliminate both possibilities permanently and would result in the removal of an integral input involved in the execution of aerials, which constitute most of the combo, pressure, and neutral games in smash. Obviously changing this would impact the game dramatically, however to answer your question I guess I would have a hard time trying to L-cancel my ground attacks right as my character landed.

Idk Man, I can L-Cancel my ground attacks right as my character lands like a boss.....

 

[Deleted member]

Hi, we are talking about removing a mechanic already in the game, not arguing to absurdities.

The fact that you considered my question an "absurdity" speaks volumes.

 

[GaretHax]

The fact that you considered my question an "absurdity" speaks volumes.

I don't think you understand what "arguing to an absurdity means". Google it.

 

[Blarg I'm Dead]

The fact that you considered my question an "absurdity" speaks volumes.

Your question was obnoxious. We're talking about tweaking a mechanic.

I'm all for l-canceling but something like auto cancel on hit and require an l-cancel is the best option if there were to be any tweaks.

auto cancel on hit removes what could be considered an arbitrary mechanic.
requiring l-cancel on a miss still encourages smart reads, leaves poor play open to punish, etc.

Not to mention tech skill isn't everything, there's still movement, mindgames, match up knowledge, and more.

 

[guedes the brawler]

And the original purpose of the thread is all but forgotten. just great.

 

[FireBall Stars]

I really don't understand how people can make such a big deal out of this.

L-cancelling is fun, and doesn't break the game, that's all that really matters.

 

[Deleted member]

Your question was obnoxious. We're talking about tweaking a mechanic.

Obnoxious? Why, because you didn't feel like actually answering the question?

Here, I'll ask it again:
Why should only air moves be cancellable? If there was a way to reduce the lag of ground moves by pressing an extra button, would you support its addition?

If you defend L-cancelling as something that adds "depth" to the game, then any answer but "yes" to my question is hypocritical since it would add just as much depth to the game as being able to cancel air moves does.

 

[SpiderMad]

I'm sleep deprived but yeah

Why should only air moves be cancellable? If there was a way to reduce the lag of ground moves by pressing an extra button, would you support its addition?

If you defend L-cancelling as something that adds "depth" to the game, then any answer but "yes" to my question is hypocritical since it would add just as much depth to the game as being able to cancel air moves does.

IASA is sort of similar =p

I'm all for l-canceling but something like auto cancel on hit and require an l-cancel is the best option if there were to be any tweaks.
auto cancel on hit removes what could be considered an arbitrary mechanic.
requiring l-cancel on a miss still encourages smart reads, leaves poor play open to punish, etc.

That doesn't make sense, it'd be the same as now

 

[Player -0]

Obnoxious? Why, because you didn't feel like actually answering the question?

Here, I'll ask it again:
Why should only air moves be cancellable? If there was a way to reduce the lag of ground moves by pressing an extra button, would you support its addition?

If you defend L-cancelling as something that adds "depth" to the game, then any answer but "yes" to my question is hypocritical since it would add just as much depth to the game as being able to cancel air moves does.

Move ground moves are much more powerful than a character's aerial variants. Imagine having Mario L-Canceling his Down Smash.





Nothing?
Imagine Brawl MK's Down Smash..... Anything now?