How relevant are Doc guides and info for mario?

[FoxeR]

Considering picking up mario as a secondary and not sure what tech translates or if any does. Whats Doc stuff should I ignore ?

 

[schmooblidon]

Pretty similar. But doc wants to land a fair, mario wants to land an fsmash. Doc's pills are much better at zoning. Mario is more combo heavy.

 

[FoxeR]

so probably as long as I know the differences watching some old shroomed VoDs would probably translate ?

 

[schmooblidon]

yeah they both really want grabs and their neutral is pretty much the same. but you should watch some a rookie too, he ain't no slouch... and he still mains mario lol

 

[BasicallyRyan]

Also the Bairs differ quite a bit, Doc has a much stronger Bair while Mario can only use his as edge guard/ zoning tool.

 

[Maple/DBK]

Is there a difference between Doc and Mario's cape other than Doc's not giving him a vertical distance?

 

[schmooblidon]

Mario's hitbox is smaller and it does 10% damage, doc's does 12%.

 

[Maple/DBK]

can you still reverse cape with it? (Mario's)

 

[a rookie]

Is there a difference between Doc and Mario's cape other than Doc's not giving him a vertical distance?

Doc's cape has 3 hitboxes as well. Mario, unfortunately, only has 1 of the 3 that Doc possesses. Doc's cape is also more of a stall in recovery(w/ no boost at all), while Mario's can be a stall and gives a boost higher than where you started as well. Yes, you can still reverse cape, but the hitbox is the upper toso to his head. Anything below will miss. Check it out yourself though:

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Mario_(SSBM)/Hitboxes

 

[Maple/DBK]

Doc's cape has 3 hitboxes as well. Mario, unfortunately, only has 1 of the 3 that Doc possesses. Doc's cape is also more of a stall in recovery(w/ no boost at all), while Mario's can be a stall and gives a boost higher than where you started as well. Yes, you can still reverse cape, but the hitbox is the upper toso to his head. Anything below will miss. Check it out yourself though:

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Mario_(SSBM)/Hitboxes

thanks for the info! I did not know about that, actually!

 

[a rookie]

No problem. Also, Doc's Cape hits below the stage, so you have to either magnet-hand and PERFECT up b sweetspot to avoid his cape. That itself makes Doc a lot more viable. Mario's is a lot more strict.

 

[Zalak]

No problem. Also, Doc's Cape hits below the stage, so you have to either magnet-hand and PERFECT up b sweetspot to avoid his cape. That itself makes Doc a lot more viable. Mario's is a lot more strict.

HOWEVER, it is much more satisfying to land a cape gimp with Mario.

 

[Maple/DBK]

both of them are satisfying to pull off, especially when the opponent's only choice is to get hit by it.

 

[kingPiano]

Yea Mario's cape can be much harder to use on the edge, but it does have more distance.

Something I do that is very effective is actually jump out in front/fox and falco and cape them right as they launch from their Up-B. Then you don't have to wait or anticipate their angle and flub an edge gimp. I NEVER see other top players do this I find that odd since it's so effective. Once you have the launch timing down it's a guaranteed kill and at MUCH lower percents since it will send them in the other direction much farther when caped at the beginning of the flight. This is much easier to do with Mario since you get the the lift from cape and it hits further.

 

[Zalak]

Yea Mario's cape can be much harder to use on the edge, but it does have more distance.

Something I do that is very effective is actually jump out in front/fox and falco and cape them right as they launch from their Up-B. Then you don't have to wait or anticipate their angle and flub an edge gimp. I NEVER see other top players do this I find that odd since it's so effective. Once you have the launch timing down it's a guaranteed kill and at MUCH lower percents since it will send them in the other direction much farther when caped at the beginning of the flight. This is much easier to do with Mario since you get the the lift from cape and it hits further.

I do this sometimes.. does this mean I'm a top player?

 

[Maple/DBK]

Does anybody know why Doc can UpB cancel and not Mario?

 

[kingPiano]

Does anybody know why Doc can UpB cancel and not Mario?

I have no actual answer, but I bet schmoo or anyone on the SD Melee or PM team that has broken apart the code might.

I have about 8 years experience in OOP (C++ object oriented programming mostly) Flash Action script and also Apple's Obj-C. But I've never programmed a fighting game, so all this could be hogwash but I'll try...

As we all know cancels are quite common in fighting games, most are now intentional some not. So this means that there are sub-routines and loops that are checked every cycle to possibly allow for windows of cancels. Some routines are macro and some associated with only certain characters and moves (in the code they are parent.child attributes and instances that control and modify global and local variables)

My guess is that both the Up-b wall jump and the Up-B cancel were oversights by the programmers and QA team. Seems like the structures and object attributes in the code that aren't supposed to be able to interact with the global routines somehow do for brief moments (breaches that interact with the cancel sub-routines for DJC, <auto-cancel frames>, Jump canceled grabs, etc).

For Dr.Mario's Up-B differs from Mario's in a few ways, for instance it has only 1 frame of invincibility instead of 4 like Marios; perhaps through different teams working on them, leftovers from coding Mario then Doc and vice versa or maybe it was intended. That altered start-up seems like the only point where the cancel could take place and reasoning why perhaps an exploit found it's way in while making changes . During the cancel it seems to think that Doc just jumped when you change the direction before the proper window and so you get the regular jumping land lag and the first hitbox sneaks out in time. It may be as simple as somehow the IASA routine is active during that frame/frames in a limited way and you can simply direction cancel the Up-B like any other IASA move.

For Mario's Up-B there is a moment where you are touching the wall and the walljump flag that is always being checked every cycle for him is able to be set for the brief moment between the move ending and the helpless mode beginning (the code thinks it was a regular jump). In a way similar to Samus and the Links ability to grapple after an airdodge, I'd argue that was also an oversight or bug. My biased reasoning being that Samus already has an amazing recovery without it and by having that extra ability it makes her recovery unbalanced with 3 ways to recover each tough and unpredictable. Link and YL actually need it since their recoveries are bad with just 1 way other than the hookshot, Up-B. Maybe they added it only for those two (since their recoveries were limited) and then Samus is able to piggy back off the same code and also grapple after airdodge.


Or who knows perhaps the programmers knew exactly what they were doing and meant for Doc to have a cool Up-B exploit like his vanilla twin. Programmers like to put in Easter eggs a lot or leave in cool bugs (just to mess with their leads and see if they can sneak one past the QA teams *snicker*)

 

[a rookie]

Yea Mario's cape can be much harder to use on the edge, but it does have more distance.

Something I do that is very effective is actually jump out in front/fox and falco and cape them right as they launch from their Up-B. Then you don't have to wait or anticipate their angle and flub an edge gimp. I NEVER see other top players do this I find that odd since it's so effective. Once you have the launch timing down it's a guaranteed kill and at MUCH lower percents since it will send them in the other direction much farther when caped at the beginning of the flight. This is much easier to do with Mario since you get the the lift from cape and it hits further.

I do it too, am I a Top Player yet?

 

[kingPiano]

I do it too, am I a Top Player yet?

The toppest

 

[a rookie]

Lol, sadly no. I have been practicing point blank capes for while now though. I'm still not 100% w/ them, since the timing is tough to get if you want to beat them clean and not trade.