How pre-ledgegrab body states affect your ledgedash timing

Kadano

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#1

Grabbing the ledge from a not-fastfalled instant (just after dropping from the ledge) ledgehop makes your fastest ledgedash 2 frames faster than grabbing it from a wavedash back to the ledge.
Because doing so puts you in a vulnerable position, I recommend going the middle road and always doing an intangible Firestall before you ledgedash. This ensures that you always have the same ECB state for your ledgedash.

FAQ:
• “What is ECB?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxthNFJtk64
 
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KP17

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#2
what about falco? is the ECB state the same for wd'ing w/ fast fall to ledge and simply fastfalling to ledge after a regrab?
 

Kadano

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#5
Environment Collision Box. They are used to determine whether you land on a platform, collide with a wall and similar stuff.

Red and blue are the ledgegrab boxes.
The orange diamonds are your ECBs. The yellowish-orange one is the current one, the others are just used for calculating the current / corrected ECB afaik, so they aren’t important to us.
 

SpiderMad

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#6
So wait, why is it like this that these actions to grab the ledge determine the difference of the ECBox's size and location. Is that by intended design for the ledge grab mechanics? How does this relate to other character's?
 
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Kadano

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#7
ECB extensions are not updated frame-by-frame, but only at certain keypoints. You can think of them as something similar to video keyframes in h264, if you are familiar with these.
My knowledge about them stems solely from looking at their extensions at different frames, so I can only offer “educated guesses”, but not actual insight into Melee’s code.

This is how I understand it currently: Your basic ECB extension is updated approximately every 10 frames. This seems to depend less on individual actions than on body states like airborne / grounded (hanging on the ledge counts as grounded here, although this is more ambivalent in other cases – giving you your double jump(s) back, but not your pseudo-jump). It was probably programmed like this so that moves that lift your feet upwards (think CF’s uair) don’t instant-land when you drop through a platform and start them immediately.¹
At different points within one update interval, your ECB extension is not constant and still depends on your animation frames assigned ECB extension shifts. But the basic shape will only change considerably when the next update interval starts.

Grabbing the ledge takes exactly 8 frames, except for Link and Young Link where it’s only 4. If you drop from the ledge within 3 frames (after CliffWait 0, 1 or 2 ), you will still stay within the old update interval and keep the, hopefully beneficial, ECB extension. If your character’s double jump speed accelerates sufficiently quickly, you can rise above the stage before the next ECB update interval starts.

Differently and simply put, you try to stay in each body state for as short as possible (<10 frames²) so that the game lags behind and doesn’t correct your body extension from aerial to grounded before you go from the ledge above the stage.

Ganon is probably the most bizarre abuser of this exploit. I mentioned a few applications here: http://smashboards.com/threads/is-there-anything-left-to-discover-with-ganon.335743/#post-16442699
But I didn’t really explain how to get it like this. I still believe that I can explain this much better in a video, but I will post a short analysis later (currently working on it, but I want to complete this post for now, haha).

¹So-called “platform canceling“ does just what the programmers wanted to prevent, as they likely didn’t account for the hitlag delay that also increases the ECB timer and thrusts you into the next ECB update interval. Because aerial ECBs have much shorter downward extension than grounded ECBs (those will usually be kept for 10 frames so that you can pass through the platform), the updated ECB might have you being “above” the platform again, if your aerial’s ECB downward extension is sufficiently short to compensate your falling speed.
²Light orange color indicates estimates without proper testing and verifying from now on. So these 10 frames could be 9 or 14 as well, but if I always run such tests before I post, I won’t write another post before I understand pretty much the entire Melee code, haha.
 
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tm

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#8
How does fastfalling affect the ECB for the ledgehop regrab and the wavedash to ledge?
 

tm

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#10
It will take to a shape very similar to column 2.
For both FF'd ledgehop regrab and wavedash FF to ledge?

In that case, shouldn't every wavedash to ledge be fast-fallen in order to reduce the size of the current ECB? (Assuming that you want that shape consistently, or at least prefer it to the shape in column 3)
 

6VI6

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#12
@ Kadano Kadano do you have any information on how Captain Falcon is affected by this (ie specific numbers for invincibility)? The extent of my knowledge is that his upB would increase his actionable invincibility frames. I'm assuming the numbers would be different from Ganondorf.
 

Kadano

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#13
@ Kadano Kadano do you have any information on how Captain Falcon is affected by this (ie specific numbers for invincibility)? The extent of my knowledge is that his upB would increase his actionable invincibility frames. I'm assuming the numbers would be different from Ganondorf.
12 frames actionable intangibility for the “best” up-B ledgegrab I could find yet. You need to do a very precise 197° waveland, though, so it’s far from feasible in a real match.

After intangible ledgehopstalls, the best ledgedash you can do gives you 10 frames.

After intangible ledgedashstalls or wavedash to the ledge, the best ledgedash you can do gives you 8 frames of actionable intangibility.
 

6VI6

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#14
Interesting, so ledgehop stalls are the most reliable way to up your invincibility (marginally) is what I'm getting out of this. Thanks
 

Kadano

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#15
Interesting, so ledgehop stalls are the most reliable way to up your invincibility (marginally) is what I'm getting out of this. Thanks
For Captain Falcon, yes.

For Fox – who this thread is about after all – I’d rather recommend the firestall. Here is a ledge option template for the earliest firestall:

Icons by Toomai.

You can grab the ledge whenever all of these criteria are true:
1. Disabled regrab period (DRP) is inactive
2. You have downward momentum (Δy<0)
3. You are in either your neutral fall, tumble or up-B animation (maybe something else as well?)
4. One of your ledgegrab boxes overlaps with the ledge. Fox’s ledgegrab boxes (LGB) are the red and blue rectangles in front of and behind his head. During most frames / animations, only the LGB in front of you is active, but for some – for example the apex of Fox’s up-B – both are active.

Here is a .gif of the execution illustrated above:

[Click on the animation for gfycat viewing options]
In the example above, Fox had downward momentum for 13 frames before he actually grabbed the ledge. This can be seen as a waste; you can use these excess frames to throw in a shine before the up-B, fast fall and jump to be at a lower, more safe position.
 
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Bones0

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#16
In the example above, Fox had downward momentum for 13 frames before he actually grabbed the ledge. This can be seen as a waste; you can use these excess frames to throw in a shine before the up-B, fast fall and jump to be at a lower, more safe position.
Firestall has a 13 frame window? That seems way larger than I expected. Is Falco's the same? I don't really need a full template, just how much leniency it has. I know he has to DJ unlike Fox, but I'd imagine that only takes up 1 more frame when perfect.
 

Kadano

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#17
Yes, I do remember comparing Fox and Falco and found their downward momentum to start at the same frame, so that would make it 12 for Falco with the obligatory jump frame. I will confirm this when I'm home.
 

Winston

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#18
Firestall has a 13 frame window? That seems way larger than I expected. Is Falco's the same? I don't really need a full template, just how much leniency it has. I know he has to DJ unlike Fox, but I'd imagine that only takes up 1 more frame when perfect.
The leniency here describes how long you have to start your up b after releasing the edge. You still have to be frame perfect for letting go of the edge as soon as you can if you want full invincibility.
 

Bones0

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#19
The leniency here describes how long you have to start your up b after releasing the edge. You still have to be frame perfect for letting go of the edge as soon as you can if you want full invincibility.
Why is dropping perfectly necessary if you have 10+ frames where you can't grab the ledge anyway? If you do everything frame perfect, you have 13 frames before you can regrab. I figured if I take 12 frames to ledge drop and up-B immediately, I'll still have invincibility by the time I regrab. :confused:
 

Kadano

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#20
Please examine the Fox frame overview illustration above very closely, as well as the list of ledgegrab requirements in the same post; it's explained in there in a graphical and hopefully more understandable way than plain text.

Here is a frame template where Fox delays his drop by 1 frame and does everything else frame perfectly:

Corresponding animation:

[Click on the animation for gfycat viewing options; the vulnerable frame is hardly visible in real-time playback speed]
 
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tm

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#22
Ah, I was confused the same way.

So basically, the disabled regrab period begins from when you LET GO of the ledge,
NOT from when you get invincibility from grabbing it.

Which, is written right there on the picture. derp
 
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Bones0

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#23
Ah, I was confused the same way.

So basically, the disabled regrab period begins from when you LET GO of the ledge,
NOT from when you get invincibility from grabbing it.

Which, is written right there on the picture. derp
No, the DRP is based on your invincibility, which starts when you grab the ledge. You can't grab the ledge while you're still invincible. That's why Kadano's GIFs show Fox hovering by the ledge. If the Fox had waited for his invincibility to end before doing the same exact up-B, he'd grab the ledge sooner.
 
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Kadano

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#24
No, the DRP is based on your invincibility, which starts when you grab the ledge. You can't grab the ledge while you're still invincible. That's why Kadano's GIFs show Fox hovering by the ledge. If the Fox had waited for his invincibility to end before doing the same exact up-B, he'd grab the ledge sooner.
False. DRP is independent of ledge intangibility, they just happen to run out at the same frame if you drop from the ledge as soon as possible.

[…]
Sheik & Mewtwo have that error window on them because of the invincibility on their up-Bs. Every other invincible stall needs to be frame perfect in letting go of the edge (this is all that really matters for doing it correctly), because the total invincibility from the edge was made so that it is exactly equal to the ledge grabbing lag + the period after letting go of the edge that the game doesn't allow you to grab it again.

Ledgegrabbing Lag: Link (4); Everyone else (8)

Disabled Regrab Period: ALL (29)
Ledgegrab Lag + Regrab Lag: Link (33); Everyone else (37)

Ledge Invincibility: Link (33); Everyone else (37)
 

Bones0

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#25
False. DRP is independent of ledge intangibility, they just happen to run out at the same frame if you drop from the ledge as soon as possible.
Is it just a coincidence you have to drop frame perfectly in order to maintain full intangibility? I was under the impression that regrabs were disabled specifically with ledge intangibility in mind (hence Link having less intangibility). If you let your intangibility run out while you hang on the ledge, can you not then Firestall without worrying DRP?
 

Kadano

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#26
Is it just a coincidence you have to drop frame perfectly in order to maintain full intangibility? I was under the impression that regrabs were disabled specifically with ledge intangibility in mind (hence Link having less intangibility). If you let your intangibility run out while you hang on the ledge, can you not then Firestall without worrying DRP?
I don’t know how many times you want me to state this again. Ledge intangibility and DRP are independent. So hanging on the ledge only decreases your amount of intangibility, but the DRP isn’t activated. It always gets triggered when you drop from the ledge, and it always starts with 29 frames, counting down 1 after every frame.

The frame templates you so quickly said you didn’t need have all this information within them.

I’m sure it was intended by the programmers to work like this. They probably spent a lot of time balancing ledge mechanics and felt it was the most balanced this way.

Ledge intangibility and the Disabled Regrab Period timer are independent, but usually correlate.
A good evidence for this independence that proves that there is no causation, and not necessarily correlation, is the “cloud cancel” ledgestall on Yoshi’s story.
 
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tm

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#28
Very nice! I really liked the video explanation... Hopefully more to come regarding future confusions ;)

P.S. Kadano what is the name of the font used in the video and the pictures above?
 

Kadano

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#29
Very nice! I really liked the video explanation... Hopefully more to come regarding future confusions ;)

P.S. Kadano what is the name of the font used in the video and the pictures above?
Glad you like it! There will definitely be a lot more on that channel, but I want to save the big topics ( (S)(A)(S)DI, knockback, movement etc.) until I’m more skilled at Avisynth scripting and video editing in general.

Trebuchet MS. It’s the best-looking popular font I know of that has proper quotation marks. I do have some issues with it, like en dashes (–) being the same length as hyphens (-) [Trebuchet MS: (–), (-)]. For you flopmericans who hardly ever use en dashes, this probably doesn’t matter, but German has much more advanced typography and we expect Halbgeviertstriche (en dashes) to have exactly twice the length of Viertelgeviertstriche (hyphens). Because I want to settle on a “perfect” font eventually that I can use for both English and German, this won’t do. Unfortunately, the only all-around better font I’ve found yet is Linux Biolinum, which mostly isn’t available for online writing.

Note that Tahoma and Verdana have broken (non-standard) quotation marks. Arial does everything right with the symbols, but I hate its letter style.

I might switch to Linux Biolinum Bold for the next couple videos and decide afterwards whether I prefer it over Trebuchet MS.
 
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Bones0

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#30
You might be able to take Verdana and edit the quotations manually and create a whole new font set. Idk the specifics on making new fonts, but I'm pretty sure that's possible if the quotes/hypens are really the only things preventing you from using a particular font.
 

Kadano

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#31
You might be able to take Verdana and edit the quotations manually and create a whole new font set. Idk the specifics on making new fonts, but I'm pretty sure that's possible if the quotes/hypens are really the only things preventing you from using a particular font.
That hybrid font hack job you propose wouldn’t be available on online forums like here either, though. I also prefer the letter styles of both Trebuchet MS and Linux Biolinum over all of the others in the image, so I’d rather just go with Biolinum.
 

tm

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#32
Leave it to you to have an extremely intentional meta-response to my seemingly casual inquiry. I love when people take stuff to the next level, even simple stuff in their everyday life. My hat's off to you. And no we don't use en (or em) dashes. We don't have keys for them, and even if we did, we wouldn't know how to use them correctly lol
 

Kadano

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#33
Leave it to you to have an extremely intentional meta-response to my seemingly casual inquiry. I love when people take stuff to the next level, even simple stuff in their everyday life. My hat's off to you. And no we don't use en (or em) dashes. We don't have keys for them, and even if we did, we wouldn't know how to use them correctly lol
Granted, most people here who don’t study language don’t know about em dashes either. The standard keyboard layboard is a minor alteration of the terrible QWERTY. I personally use the NEO layout, which has three different mod ("shift") buttons to access all useful characters. It’s ergonomically optimized for a mixed use of German, English and other languages. You don’t need a new keyboard, you just install it on your computer.

Em dash is Shift+(-), en dash is Shift+(,).
 
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squirrels4ev

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#34
Is it beneficial to make sure your control stick is in neutral when you press X/Y for ledgedashing purposes or is it alright (or perhaps better) to have already flicked your control stick to the angle you're going to waveland at when you press X/Y? I know for haxdashing you have to hold toward the stage when you jump, but I couldn't find a breakdown of the inputs for a perfect wavedash in Kadano's Perfect Marth Class thread. Just to clarify, this question is about Fox's ledgedash, not Marth's.
 

Kadano

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#35
Is it beneficial to make sure your control stick is in neutral when you press X/Y for ledgedashing purposes or is it alright (or perhaps better) to have already flicked your control stick to the angle you're going to waveland at when you press X/Y? I know for haxdashing you have to hold toward the stage when you jump, but I couldn't find a breakdown of the inputs for a perfect wavedash in Kadano's Perfect Marth Class thread. Just to clarify, this question is about Fox's ledgedash, not Marth's.
It’s necessary to hold the control stick towards the stage when you hit X/Y.
 

squirrels4ev

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#36
It’s necessary to hold the control stick towards the stage when you hit X/Y.
That explains why sometimes they were looking smooth as butter and the rest of the time I was faceplanting an airdodge into the wall. Practice is going a lot smoother already, thanks.
 

squirrels4ev

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#37
If I'm not hearing Fox's airdodge shout does that mean that I'm timing my airdodge at the earliest possible frame I can successfully waveland out of my jump, or is that something that happens if the spacing works out so that my ECB is at specific location relative to the stage? The sound that is being played when this happens sounds almost exactly the same as the sound that plays when Fox lands out of an empty hop; like a whoosh of air almost.
 

Kadano

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#38
If I'm not hearing Fox's airdodge shout does that mean that I'm timing my airdodge at the earliest possible frame I can successfully waveland out of my jump, or is that something that happens if the spacing works out so that my ECB is at specific location relative to the stage? The sound that is being played when this happens sounds almost exactly the same as the sound that plays when Fox lands out of an empty hop; like a whoosh of air almost.
Fox’s “OTTA” shout is played on frame 4 of his airdodge. When your airdodge timing is perfect, you land immediately on frame 1 of the airdodge. When you airdodge 1 frame later, you land on frame 3 of your airdodge, so you still won’t hear the shout.
When you airdodge 2 frames later than perfect, you land on frame 5 of your airdodge. So if your timing is off by at least 2 frames, you will hear the shout.

These values are for 315°/225° airdodges (southeast / southwest nodge). If you go for a more shallow angle for longer wavelands, it’s slightly harder to stay below the shout threshold.
 

squirrels4ev

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#39
Will the more acutely angled (relative to South) wavedash give me more actionable frames than a wider one, or do all wavedashes last the same amount of frames regardless of how far you actually slide? I'm trying to figure out if I need to adjust the angle I'm using for my ledgedash. My thumb naturally snaps to around 320°-330° when ledgedashing from the left side of the stage, but if it's better to go to the notch I want to correct myself before bad habits get formed.
 

Kadano

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#40
Will the more acutely angled (relative to South) wavedash give me more actionable frames than a wider one, or do all wavedashes last the same amount of frames regardless of how far you actually slide? I'm trying to figure out if I need to adjust the angle I'm using for my ledgedash. My thumb naturally snaps to around 320°-330° when ledgedashing from the left side of the stage, but if it's better to go to the notch I want to correct myself before bad habits get formed.
LandingFallSpecial from airdodge, aka waveland lag, is always 10 frames. Regardless of angle or movement speed.
 
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