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Roy isn't a heavyweight. He's a fast faller. He's actually lighter than Mario. And to say either of these is bottom of high tier is very questionable. If you consider high tier as large as 20 characters, then sure, almost anybody could hit the 20th spot depending on your opinion, Bowser not excluded. I know how good Ike and Roy could be, but our Bowser players were placing high in weekly/bi-weekly tournaments before this update. I don't hear at all from Roys and Ikes. And I assume you haven't heard at all from Bowsers. The new Uthrow doesn't solve Bowser's problems, but suddenly having a use for a grabbed opponent is very game changing for a character that only had kill moves and punishes, not combos to rack up damage guaranteed. You really could not get me to care about Uair as a kill followup when I'm playing as Bowser, an actual heavyweight. More importantly, we have better edgeguarding now that we can recover backwards without penalty, and a dozen other moves that set up or outright result in a kill. A hoo hah is weak news, a throw that combos into Utilt and aerials is excellent by comparison, and suddenly validates much of our air game.Even with the new Hoo-Ha he still suffers from the same problems as other heavyweights. I don't think he's as good as Ike and Roy who are both bottom of high tier, so he's probably one of the best or better mid tiers.
i understand that the hitboxes are annoying and i myself and experienced missing f-tilt but i personally think that missing and klaw/f-tilt is not bowser's fault but the player's since they didn't space the moves properly its like missing a move and blaming the character instead of yourself even tho you know that they miss when your close. also one of bowser's biggest flaw are his hitboxes???even tho it is only f-tilt and klaw and as i said you should space them properly as long as you know the hitboxes and ill assume his other hitboxes are fine as i dont have trouble with them only f-tilt and klawIt's actually one of Bowser's biggest flaws in Sm4sh. Several Bowser mains have stated that a Klaw or F-tilt that should have hit whiffed because the opponent was inside Bowser, and costed them the match. While many of the recent buffs were extremely helpful to Bowser, his only real problem left is his hitboxes. Sadly, I don't think that'd something that can be fixed easily.
i already explained on an previous post that bowser's flaws aren't as bad (i know he still has them but they aren't as bad) and i think that bowser has the possibility of being an high tier we just lack the results (im doing my best to be as good as possible with him :D) also for some reason when people lose as bowser they blame bowser even though its their fault not bowser's (probably the reason of the lack of bowser mains)Even with the new Hoo-Ha he still suffers from the same problems as other heavyweights. I don't think he's as good as Ike and Roy who are both bottom of high tier, so he's probably one of the best or better mid tiers.
I didn't say that to say Roy is a heavyweight, I was using Roy as a comparison. And if you don't hear anything from Ike and Roy you must not be listening very hard. Especially Ike, who's been something of a rising star lately.Roy isn't a heavyweight. He's a fast faller. He's actually lighter than Mario. And to say either of these is bottom of high tier is very questionable. If you consider high tier as large as 20 characters, then sure, almost anybody could hit the 20th spot depending on your opinion, Bowser not excluded. I know how good Ike and Roy could be, but our Bowser players were placing high in weekly/bi-weekly tournaments before this update. I don't hear at all from Roys and Ikes. And I assume you haven't heard at all from Bowsers. The new Uthrow doesn't solve Bowser's problems, but suddenly having a use for a grabbed opponent is very game changing for a character that only had kill moves and punishes, not combos to rack up damage guaranteed. You really could not get me to care about Uair as a kill followup when I'm playing as Bowser, an actual heavyweight. More importantly, we have better edgeguarding now that we can recover backwards without penalty, and a dozen other moves that set up or outright result in a kill. A hoo hah is weak news, a throw that combos into Utilt and aerials is excellent by comparison, and suddenly validates much of our air game.
TBH, yeah, Roy just doesn't seem to be going anywhere, especially not now that Cloud is basically a better version of Roy in a number of ways (even Sethlon was playing him, and he's a die-hard Roy main).I didn't say that to say Roy is a heavyweight, I was using Roy as a comparison. And if you don't hear anything from Ike and Roy you must not be listening very hard. Especially Ike, who's been something of a rising star lately.
Roy and Cloud are two very different characters, and to say that Cloud is better is very debatable, especially considering he hasn't even been out a week. It's also important to note that Roy players, while few, are pretty damn good, kind of like Bowser.TBH, yeah, Roy just doesn't seem to be going anywhere, especially not now that Cloud is basically a better version of Roy in a number of ways (even Sethlon was playing him, and he's a die-hard Roy main).
But Ike, sure. Ryo is a phenomenal Ike and I've seen a few other Ike's here and there. I feel like Ike's smashes, while slower than some of Bowser's, actually do a better job covering options in many cases.
As for Bowser, we did have some pretty amazing pre-patch Bowsers and they're only going to get better with this kill confirm. Really, a huge problem Bowser had was the fact that, even with ALL his kill power, actually landing a killing blow was extremely hard against any wary opponent, especially at reasonable percentages.
I'm actually wondering if the buff won't make Bowser better against higher tiers but altogether TOO good against mid-lower tiers, but we'll see...
HOW DID YOU SAY THE HOO HAH DOSENT HELP VS ROSALINA IT LITERATELY KILLS AT 80% WITH NO RAGE AND WITH RAGE AT 70% OR EVEN 60% (also dont go too deep in talking about roy and cloud this is about bowser in the end :D) (except if it is roy or cloud vs bowser then its fine)Roy and Cloud are two very different characters, and to say that Cloud is better is very debatable, especially considering he hasn't even been out a week. It's also important to note that Roy players, while few, are pretty damn good, kind of like Bowser.
I don't think the Hoo-Ha is going to help him against the likes of Rosalina and such, but it definitely gave him a hell of a boost against mid tiers.
My uthrow uair combos have been interrupted a number of times in matches with Rosalina, Luma can hit or clank with Bowser when he goes for a utilt and possibly nair.HOW DID YOU SAY THE HOO HAH DOSENT HELP VS ROSALINA IT LITERATELY KILLS AT 80% WITH NO RAGE AND WITH RAGE AT 70% OR EVEN 60% (also dont go too deep in talking about roy and cloud this is about bowser in the end :D) (except if it is roy or cloud vs bowser then its fine)
i personally dont see the hitboxes as being a problem (what moves have bad hitboxes other than f-tilt and klaw?)My uthrow uair combos have been interrupted a number of times in matches with Rosalina, Luma can hit or clank with Bowser when he goes for a utilt and possibly nair.
On the hitbox problem, I consider it a huge issue for Bowser but I've already said my piece on it.
For what its worth, I'm picking up Cloud because I'm gahdamn hype for him, not because I think he's a better Roy. FF7 was a huge part of my childhood; Cloud is one of like five characters ever that could be added that would make me consider playing something other than Roy.TBH, yeah, Roy just doesn't seem to be going anywhere, especially not now that Cloud is basically a better version of Roy in a number of ways (even Sethlon was playing him, and he's a die-hard Roy main).
Ah, I see. I wasn't actually sure if you were just messing around with Cloud and would go back to Roy afterwards, but that's good to know.For what its worth, I'm picking up Cloud because I'm gahdamn hype for him, not because I think he's a better Roy. FF7 was a huge part of my childhood; Cloud is one of like five characters ever that could be added that would make me consider playing something other than Roy.
I'm not dropping Roy though, he's still hella fun in a completely different way. Probly gonna use Cloud for ROB/Sheik, maybe others once I get a better feel for him
I don't think you'll see it again.A quick warning. Discussion on who will main who or the competitive viability of other characters should be kept to a minimum or at least remain relevant to the topic at hand.
Bowser is not in no way OP. He still has too blatant defects as his big hurtbox, many lags in his attacks,no real projectile attacks , and his recovery is average.He's friggin' OP is what he is.
While I was fighting this Bowser today (like many other times after this stupid patch), I worked hard to rack up around 40 damage on him because he was good at avoiding my attacks. Then, bam, he gets one grab, and suddenly I have 50%+ damage. Bam, another one, 70%. Bam, another one, dead.
Bowser is just a straight up stupid, cheap and unfair character after this patch. This is the most stupid thing Sakurai have ever done. I thought DK's Up Throw buff a while ago was too good, but this is just insane. Any noob can pick up Bowser and win, since you litterally need a few grabs only to win. Woho, so much fun.
Good points. But still: Not getting grabbed by someone with such running speed as Bowser is near impossible. One slight mistake, and it results in you getting 40+ damage from him, or even a kill at as low as 80% of Up Throw -> Up Air. DI-ing out of it is impossible, after my very many tries. So basically, Bowser might get thrown around a lot, but it's not like he can't move. And getting grabs with him is easy because of his speed. Get 1 grab as him and you are able to deal the same amount of damage that other characters have to struggle to deal. Isn't that cheap? Plus that, if you have over 70% damage, you need to avoid Bowser's grab at all cost, or else you're dead. And not getting grabbed isn't really an easy task...Bowser is not in no way OP. He still has too blatant defects as his big hurtbox, many lags in his attacks,no real projectile attacks , and his recovery is average.
Yes Bowser is a good character, especially for a heavyweight, OP is not either. Besides, there is no real character "OP"
Well, 40% damage is a bit of an exaggeration. It's 15% until they're high enough that our slow jumpsquat and Nair or Fair can reach. The throw itself does 6, and Utilt is 9. Nair has a damage potential of 24% between its four hits, but the move is not designed to hit four times in any normal situation. More like two, which brings the damage count up to 18. And 19 for Fair and Uair. 40% is feasible for a certain 0% Fair to regrab combo, but assuming you have the stats for that to work, it's too slow to be true.Good points. But still: Not getting grabbed by someone with such running speed as Bowser is near impossible. One slight mistake, and it results in you getting 40+ damage from him, or even a kill at as low as 80% of Up Throw -> Up Air. DI-ing out of it is impossible, after my very many tries. So basically, Bowser might get thrown around a lot, but it's not like he can't move. And getting grabs with him is easy because of his speed. Get 1 grab as him and you are able to deal the same amount of damage that other characters have to struggle to deal. Isn't that cheap? Plus that, if you have over 70% damage, you need to avoid Bowser's grab at all cost, or else you're dead. And not getting grabbed isn't really an easy task...
Yes but it depends from character. Characters like Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu....Good points. But still: Not getting grabbed by someone with such running speed as Bowser is near impossible. One slight mistake, and it results in you getting 40+ damage from him, or even a kill at as low as 80% of Up Throw -> Up Air. DI-ing out of it is impossible, after my very many tries. So basically, Bowser might get thrown around a lot, but it's not like he can't move. And getting grabs with him is easy because of his speed. Get 1 grab as him and you are able to deal the same amount of damage that other characters have to struggle to deal. Isn't that cheap? Plus that, if you have over 70% damage, you need to avoid Bowser's grab at all cost, or else you're dead. And not getting grabbed is really an easy task...
Yes but no. Characters like Sheik, Pikachu, ZSS, Captain Falcon....do not have a lot of difficulty to impose their combo because they are either faster, Bowser is smaller, which is very easy of the combotted.Good points. But still: Not getting grabbed by someone with such running speed as Bowser is near impossible. One slight mistake, and it results in you getting 40+ damage from him, or even a kill at as low as 80% of Up Throw -> Up Air. DI-ing out of it is impossible, after my very many tries. So basically, Bowser might get thrown around a lot, but it's not like he can't move. And getting grabs with him is easy because of his speed. Get 1 grab as him and you are able to deal the same amount of damage that other characters have to struggle to deal. Isn't that cheap? Plus that, if you have over 70% damage, you need to avoid Bowser's grab at all cost, or else you're dead. And not getting grabbed isn't really an easy task...
Bowser has to struggle to get in on people though. Especially zoners that know how to zone effectively. That is very likely the mindset they went with when they altered Bowser's Uthrow. As far as I can see the higher end battles are more balanced now because if we make even 1 mistake we can be spiked to doom or we are combo'd into death for 2 years.Good points. But still: Not getting grabbed by someone with such running speed as Bowser is near impossible. One slight mistake, and it results in you getting 40+ damage from him, or even a kill at as low as 80% of Up Throw -> Up Air. DI-ing out of it is impossible, after my very many tries. So basically, Bowser might get thrown around a lot, but it's not like he can't move. And getting grabs with him is easy because of his speed. Get 1 grab as him and you are able to deal the same amount of damage that other characters have to struggle to deal. Isn't that cheap? Plus that, if you have over 70% damage, you need to avoid Bowser's grab at all cost, or else you're dead. And not getting grabbed isn't really an easy task...
Wow.. I didn't know :O How do you know who I fought, btw? I should feel honored, being a Norwegian smasher myself.WwwWario you do realise that you were playing one of norways undisputed best players on for glory right? Its wierd that you didnt even recognize the name as you have joined some of the weeklie wi-fi tourneys. He would have destroyed you with any character on the roster, bowser just got that stomp thing going on with him because of his high damage. You should be happy that he didnt pick his Ryu because you would probably go on the Ryu forum instead and write something like "wow Ryu is just stupid he just needs two combos and an uptilt shoryuken kill at 60%, Ryu is the dumbest thing sakurai has ever introduced to the game"
Also, using tags like "IDIOT", "BOWSER=OP", and "FU" before rage quitting is not good sport.
Also, saying that I would get destroyed by any character from him, and say that I would probably go and cry over said character saying he's OP, isn't really motivating or good sport of you either, just because I think Bowser's Up Throw is broken :\
Of course I don't want Bowser to be bottom tier. But there are other areas they could have buffed him instead of taking all those buffs and push them on one place - his Up Throw. What about less landing lag on areals, etc? The thing is, any noob can now use Bowser and win, because admit it - how are you supposed to not get grabbed in a game? Doing one mistake, and bowser can grab you because of his running speed. One grab can lead to insanely much damage, and kill as early as 60-70%. A few grabs is literally everything Bowser needs to take a stock, which anyone can do. My point is that they should have buffed him in several other places instead of giving him 1 ultra-good throw.I don't understand why now that Bowser finally has a combo throw people are all saying "it's broken!" Why should Bowser be the only character who DOESN'T have a combo throw? It's not like this makes him top tier. He still gets murdered and taken from 0 to 60% dmg by the chars like Sheik.
It's like people want him to stay bottom tier forever or something. Like he doesn't have any setups and people go "Oh Bowser is fun but not viable." So then he gets a setup and now "Oh Bowser is broken and OP." So what is it, you want him to just live in bottom tier hell forever and be junk at every new Smash sequel until the end of time? Even with this new up-throw set up it's not like Bowser is exactly setting the world on fire, it's just now he has an actual fighting chance.
Yes, but it should have been where? Reduce lag would actually rendered Bowser fartedOf course I don't want Bowser to be bottom tier. But there are other areas they could have buffed him instead of taking all those buffs and push them on one place - his Up Throw. What about less landing lag on areals, etc? The thing is, any noob can now use Bowser and win, because admit it - how are you supposed to not get grabbed in a game? Doing one mistake, and bowser can grab you because of his running speed. One grab can lead to insanely much damage, and kill as early as 60-70%. A few grabs is literally everything Bowser needs to take a stock, which anyone can do. My point is that they should have buffed him in several other places instead of giving him 1 ultra-good throw.
Also, Bowser isn't the only character without a combo throw. Wario for example has no guaranteed combo throw at all.
Okay, that I can see and understand. Lol that's a much better point other than "BOWSER OP TOP TIER BS!"My point is that they should have buffed him in several other places instead of giving him 1 ultra-good throw.
I was not aware of that. Thank you for that info. Are there any other chars that don't have a combo throw? I always thought it was just Bowser.My point is that they should have buffed him in several other places Also, Bowser isn't the only character without a combo throw. Wario for example has no guaranteed combo throw at all.
Bowser is the sixth or seventh character to have received a combo throw via a patch, behind Link, Villager, Robin, Charizard, DK, characters who you would never really grab with prior to their updates. Off the top of my head, Marth/Lucina, Samus, Bowser Jr, Wii Fit Trainer, and Jigglypuff have throws that not only don't have true followups, but are also questionably useful for ever putting the opponent in a bad spot. Tech chase scenario, juggling, nothing like that. Bowser too was in this boat. Many more characters have a lack of true followups like Duck Hunt and Toon Link, but they can at least use throws for other things. Duck Hunt's Fthrow sets up nice tech chases, Toon Link's Bthrow can kill reasonably early with positioning and rage, things like that.I was not aware of that. Thank you for that info. Are there any other chars that don't have a combo throw? I always thought it was just Bowser.
I said he would beat you with any character which is largely because he got good fundamentals, BUT you would cry about his Ryu who is a top tier character and got similar "kill early super fast" stuff like bowser has. (also, we got a big skype group and some of the info got shared when he played you, like when you used thoose tags etc, nothing really malicious at all )Wow.. I didn't know :O How do you know who I fought, btw? I should feel honored, being a Norwegian smasher myself.
I definitely know that saying those tags isn't good sport, and I admit that I used them, and I admit that I'm a big douchebag for using them. But I didn't mean it personally, just to get that clear. Those tags were there beforehand that I hadn't used, but a friend of mine used. So, just to get my frustration out, I just found the first bad tag I could find and showed it. I'm very sorry if I came out as offending, I did not mean it. I just needed a way to get my anger out, and I chose some tags I found that weren't nice at all. I was already having a very rough day and literally felt like sh*t, and wasn't really in any mood to care about anyone or anything.
I do think Ryu's Shoryuken is too fast and strong, with so many setups to it. But I don't think it's broken, like I think with Bowser's Up Throw.
Also, saying that I'm so bad I would get destroyed by any character from him, and say that I would probably go and cry over said character saying he's OP, isn't really motivating or good sport of you either, just because I think Bowser's Up Throw is broken :\
Yeah, I may just overreact a bit because I'm not too used to this buff yet xD I'm not sure right now, but I dooo believe Bowser and Wario might be the only ones without a combo throw (or, only Wario after this patch tho). Not sure if Ryu has one.Okay, that I can see and understand. Lol that's a much better point other than "BOWSER OP TOP TIER BS!"
And come on, not "any noob" can win with Bowser. Bowser is an extremely hard char to play because of his limitations. Yeah, he has a good grab, but try to get a grab on chars like Link who just projectile wall you to hell or Rosalina where it's almost near impossible to close into her. I can understand saying they should have done small buffs here and there and tweaked him, that's an honest discussion. But to say any noob can win and you're dead if Bowser grabs you....come on now lol that's just hyperbole and being dramatic XD
I was not aware of that. Thank you for that info. Are there any other chars that don't have a combo throw? I always thought it was just Bowser.
You don't care if you're being a good sport, but you do care if I am? And sorry, but I wouldn't go and cry on the Ryu boards if he destroyed me. I'd get mad for being wrecked, I'm sure I would. But I've asked earlier (not "cried") on the Ryu boards on how he's balanced, and I've gotten very good explanations. It's not nice of you to say I would go and cry over that, like you know it, when I know myself that I wouldn't... :\I said he would beat you with any character which is largely because he got good fundamentals, BUT you would cry about his Ryu who is a top tier character and got similar "kill early super fast" stuff like bowser has. (also, we got a big skype group and some of the info got shared when he played you, like when you used thoose tags etc, nothing really malicious at all )
Its stupid to say that any scrub can pick up bowser and win with him, he is extremly abusable when people dont know how to play him because of his stupidly high lag on everything and the knowledge you need on how to space your super laggy moves. The uthrow buff is everything i wanted for him because it basically turns him into this games Zangief (pivot grab is literally a limb grabbing light SPD). Heavy weights have always suffered in smash games and giving this kind of power to heavy weights is sorta what i imagine heavy weights to be as your supposed to trade off speed for power, but in a game where (prepatch) all you get from a grab is some positioning and damage with characters like ZSS and meta knight who got tons more dangerous killing power then you its gets pretty demoralizing to play as a big guy when your not really trading speed for power at all, you're just ****ty combo food. Bowser is supposed to be the OG super heavy weight and this buff totally fits his archetype with that he gets strong reward from everything he does while still being a character with big weaknessess.
The biggest problem is that in low or mid tier level grappler type characters with strenghts aimed more at high level play usually dominates pretty hard, but struggles at high level because people learn how to abuse their weaknessess hard there. This is a thing that just happens in fighting games in general. As of me being good sport or motivating i really dont care. I just got madly annoyed that you started to complain at the bowser board after knowing why you came here. Thats not how you get better at smash.
... wutOne of my favorite changes is down B working from both sides now, honestly, and that's just a minor usability tweak.