How much better is bowser after the 1.1.3 patch?

Bowser tier placing now is

  • Still bottom of mid tier

    Votes: 13 12.5%
  • Middle of mid tier

    Votes: 59 56.7%
  • Bottom of high tier

    Votes: 32 30.8%

  • Total voters
    104

Zapp Branniglenn

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Even with the new Hoo-Ha he still suffers from the same problems as other heavyweights. I don't think he's as good as Ike and Roy who are both bottom of high tier, so he's probably one of the best or better mid tiers.
Roy isn't a heavyweight. He's a fast faller. He's actually lighter than Mario. And to say either of these is bottom of high tier is very questionable. If you consider high tier as large as 20 characters, then sure, almost anybody could hit the 20th spot depending on your opinion, Bowser not excluded. I know how good Ike and Roy could be, but our Bowser players were placing high in weekly/bi-weekly tournaments before this update. I don't hear at all from Roys and Ikes. And I assume you haven't heard at all from Bowsers. The new Uthrow doesn't solve Bowser's problems, but suddenly having a use for a grabbed opponent is very game changing for a character that only had kill moves and punishes, not combos to rack up damage guaranteed. You really could not get me to care about Uair as a kill followup when I'm playing as Bowser, an actual heavyweight. More importantly, we have better edgeguarding now that we can recover backwards without penalty, and a dozen other moves that set up or outright result in a kill. A hoo hah is weak news, a throw that combos into Utilt and aerials is excellent by comparison, and suddenly validates much of our air game.
 

bushaheen

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It's actually one of Bowser's biggest flaws in Sm4sh. Several Bowser mains have stated that a Klaw or F-tilt that should have hit whiffed because the opponent was inside Bowser, and costed them the match. While many of the recent buffs were extremely helpful to Bowser, his only real problem left is his hitboxes. Sadly, I don't think that'd something that can be fixed easily.
i understand that the hitboxes are annoying and i myself and experienced missing f-tilt but i personally think that missing and klaw/f-tilt is not bowser's fault but the player's since they didn't space the moves properly its like missing a move and blaming the character instead of yourself even tho you know that they miss when your close. also one of bowser's biggest flaw are his hitboxes???even tho it is only f-tilt and klaw and as i said you should space them properly as long as you know the hitboxes and ill assume his other hitboxes are fine as i dont have trouble with them only f-tilt and klaw


Even with the new Hoo-Ha he still suffers from the same problems as other heavyweights. I don't think he's as good as Ike and Roy who are both bottom of high tier, so he's probably one of the best or better mid tiers.
i already explained on an previous post that bowser's flaws aren't as bad (i know he still has them but they aren't as bad) and i think that bowser has the possibility of being an high tier we just lack the results (im doing my best to be as good as possible with him :D) also for some reason when people lose as bowser they blame bowser even though its their fault not bowser's (probably the reason of the lack of bowser mains)
 

MarioMeteor

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Roy isn't a heavyweight. He's a fast faller. He's actually lighter than Mario. And to say either of these is bottom of high tier is very questionable. If you consider high tier as large as 20 characters, then sure, almost anybody could hit the 20th spot depending on your opinion, Bowser not excluded. I know how good Ike and Roy could be, but our Bowser players were placing high in weekly/bi-weekly tournaments before this update. I don't hear at all from Roys and Ikes. And I assume you haven't heard at all from Bowsers. The new Uthrow doesn't solve Bowser's problems, but suddenly having a use for a grabbed opponent is very game changing for a character that only had kill moves and punishes, not combos to rack up damage guaranteed. You really could not get me to care about Uair as a kill followup when I'm playing as Bowser, an actual heavyweight. More importantly, we have better edgeguarding now that we can recover backwards without penalty, and a dozen other moves that set up or outright result in a kill. A hoo hah is weak news, a throw that combos into Utilt and aerials is excellent by comparison, and suddenly validates much of our air game.
I didn't say that to say Roy is a heavyweight, I was using Roy as a comparison. And if you don't hear anything from Ike and Roy you must not be listening very hard. Especially Ike, who's been something of a rising star lately.
 

Big-Cat

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I don't hear much on Roy, if at all, but Ike is most definitely a rising star.
 

S_B

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I didn't say that to say Roy is a heavyweight, I was using Roy as a comparison. And if you don't hear anything from Ike and Roy you must not be listening very hard. Especially Ike, who's been something of a rising star lately.
TBH, yeah, Roy just doesn't seem to be going anywhere, especially not now that Cloud is basically a better version of Roy in a number of ways (even Sethlon was playing him, and he's a die-hard Roy main).

But Ike, sure. Ryo is a phenomenal Ike and I've seen a few other Ike's here and there. I feel like Ike's smashes, while slower than some of Bowser's, actually do a better job covering options in many cases.

As for Bowser, we did have some pretty amazing pre-patch Bowsers and they're only going to get better with this kill confirm. Really, a huge problem Bowser had was the fact that, even with ALL his kill power, actually landing a killing blow was extremely hard against any wary opponent, especially at reasonable percentages.

I'm actually wondering if the buff won't make Bowser better against higher tiers but altogether TOO good against mid-lower tiers, but we'll see...
 

MarioMeteor

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TBH, yeah, Roy just doesn't seem to be going anywhere, especially not now that Cloud is basically a better version of Roy in a number of ways (even Sethlon was playing him, and he's a die-hard Roy main).

But Ike, sure. Ryo is a phenomenal Ike and I've seen a few other Ike's here and there. I feel like Ike's smashes, while slower than some of Bowser's, actually do a better job covering options in many cases.

As for Bowser, we did have some pretty amazing pre-patch Bowsers and they're only going to get better with this kill confirm. Really, a huge problem Bowser had was the fact that, even with ALL his kill power, actually landing a killing blow was extremely hard against any wary opponent, especially at reasonable percentages.

I'm actually wondering if the buff won't make Bowser better against higher tiers but altogether TOO good against mid-lower tiers, but we'll see...
Roy and Cloud are two very different characters, and to say that Cloud is better is very debatable, especially considering he hasn't even been out a week. It's also important to note that Roy players, while few, are pretty damn good, kind of like Bowser.

I don't think the Hoo-Ha is going to help him against the likes of Rosalina and such, but it definitely gave him a hell of a boost against mid tiers.
 

bushaheen

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Roy and Cloud are two very different characters, and to say that Cloud is better is very debatable, especially considering he hasn't even been out a week. It's also important to note that Roy players, while few, are pretty damn good, kind of like Bowser.

I don't think the Hoo-Ha is going to help him against the likes of Rosalina and such, but it definitely gave him a hell of a boost against mid tiers.
HOW DID YOU SAY THE HOO HAH DOSENT HELP VS ROSALINA IT LITERATELY KILLS AT 80% WITH NO RAGE AND WITH RAGE AT 70% OR EVEN 60% (also dont go too deep in talking about roy and cloud this is about bowser in the end :D) (except if it is roy or cloud vs bowser then its fine)
 

Cronoc

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HOW DID YOU SAY THE HOO HAH DOSENT HELP VS ROSALINA IT LITERATELY KILLS AT 80% WITH NO RAGE AND WITH RAGE AT 70% OR EVEN 60% (also dont go too deep in talking about roy and cloud this is about bowser in the end :D) (except if it is roy or cloud vs bowser then its fine)
My uthrow uair combos have been interrupted a number of times in matches with Rosalina, Luma can hit or clank with Bowser when he goes for a utilt and possibly nair.

On the hitbox problem, I consider it a huge issue for Bowser but I've already said my piece on it.
 

bushaheen

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My uthrow uair combos have been interrupted a number of times in matches with Rosalina, Luma can hit or clank with Bowser when he goes for a utilt and possibly nair.

On the hitbox problem, I consider it a huge issue for Bowser but I've already said my piece on it.
i personally dont see the hitboxes as being a problem (what moves have bad hitboxes other than f-tilt and klaw?)

also im pretty sure the u-throw has an hitbox to launch luma and you can do that by grabbing rosalina then waiting a moment so that luma moves in top of you them u-throw (i think im not very sure)
 

Kooky Koopa

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I think Bowser now lies more comfortably in the middle of mid tier. Before he tended to float between upper low tier or mid tier on lists but with these buffs I think his placing will be slightly more consistent. With the added option of having a kill set up and throw combo, I'd say Bowser has become noticeably stronger but not to a radical level, but certainly at a comfortable state.

It's a positive change and although not so much in the right direction to some, I still think its added a lot to his neutral game. To me, it has emphasized his role as a punisher where even a grab comes with heavy consequences for the opponent.

It hasn't fixed his weaknesses but to me that is just part of Bowser's design in that every strength is counter balanced by a weakness. Super heavy, easy to combo, hits hard but slow or laggy attacks and so on. But to that end, the buffs were welcome and I think it has improved Bowser for the better.
 
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super fan bros

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Bowser has become much better and I think he became one of the last in the middle tier. Although it is not as good than Donkey Kong, it must surely be the second best heavyweight. But despite its buff and some Mu who became his best, he has still glaring defects which prevents it from making a real leap in the tier list.
 

Sethlon

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TBH, yeah, Roy just doesn't seem to be going anywhere, especially not now that Cloud is basically a better version of Roy in a number of ways (even Sethlon was playing him, and he's a die-hard Roy main).
For what its worth, I'm picking up Cloud because I'm gahdamn hype for him, not because I think he's a better Roy. FF7 was a huge part of my childhood; Cloud is one of like five characters ever that could be added that would make me consider playing something other than Roy.

I'm not dropping Roy though, he's still hella fun in a completely different way. Probly gonna use Cloud for ROB/Sheik, maybe others once I get a better feel for him
 

S_B

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For what its worth, I'm picking up Cloud because I'm gahdamn hype for him, not because I think he's a better Roy. FF7 was a huge part of my childhood; Cloud is one of like five characters ever that could be added that would make me consider playing something other than Roy.

I'm not dropping Roy though, he's still hella fun in a completely different way. Probly gonna use Cloud for ROB/Sheik, maybe others once I get a better feel for him
Ah, I see. I wasn't actually sure if you were just messing around with Cloud and would go back to Roy afterwards, but that's good to know.

I think Cloud will turn out to be fairly competitive in the long run and I look forward to more of your sets with him. :)
 

UltimaLuminaire

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A quick warning. Discussion on who will main who or the competitive viability of other characters should be kept to a minimum or at least remain relevant to the topic at hand.
 

S_B

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A quick warning. Discussion on who will main who or the competitive viability of other characters should be kept to a minimum or at least remain relevant to the topic at hand.
I don't think you'll see it again.

It was a fluke that I accidentally brought Sethlon in here, heh...
 

WwwWario

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He's friggin' OP is what he is.

While I was fighting this Bowser today (like many other times after this stupid patch), I worked hard to rack up around 40 damage on him because he was good at avoiding my attacks. Then, bam, he gets one grab, and suddenly I have 50%+ damage. Bam, another one, 70%. Bam, another one, dead.

Bowser is just a straight up stupid, cheap and unfair character after this patch. This is the most stupid thing Sakurai have ever done. I thought DK's Up Throw buff a while ago was too good, but this is just insane. Any noob can pick up Bowser and win, since you litterally need a few grabs only to win. Woho, so much fun.
 

super fan bros

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He's friggin' OP is what he is.

While I was fighting this Bowser today (like many other times after this stupid patch), I worked hard to rack up around 40 damage on him because he was good at avoiding my attacks. Then, bam, he gets one grab, and suddenly I have 50%+ damage. Bam, another one, 70%. Bam, another one, dead.

Bowser is just a straight up stupid, cheap and unfair character after this patch. This is the most stupid thing Sakurai have ever done. I thought DK's Up Throw buff a while ago was too good, but this is just insane. Any noob can pick up Bowser and win, since you litterally need a few grabs only to win. Woho, so much fun.
Bowser is not in no way OP. He still has too blatant defects as his big hurtbox, many lags in his attacks,no real projectile attacks , and his recovery is average.

Yes Bowser is a good character, especially for a heavyweight, OP is not either. Besides, there is no real character "OP"
 
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WwwWario

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Bowser is not in no way OP. He still has too blatant defects as his big hurtbox, many lags in his attacks,no real projectile attacks , and his recovery is average.

Yes Bowser is a good character, especially for a heavyweight, OP is not either. Besides, there is no real character "OP"
Good points. But still: Not getting grabbed by someone with such running speed as Bowser is near impossible. One slight mistake, and it results in you getting 40+ damage from him, or even a kill at as low as 80% of Up Throw -> Up Air. DI-ing out of it is impossible, after my very many tries. So basically, Bowser might get thrown around a lot, but it's not like he can't move. And getting grabs with him is easy because of his speed. Get 1 grab as him and you are able to deal the same amount of damage that other characters have to struggle to deal. Isn't that cheap? Plus that, if you have over 70% damage, you need to avoid Bowser's grab at all cost, or else you're dead. And not getting grabbed isn't really an easy task...
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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Good points. But still: Not getting grabbed by someone with such running speed as Bowser is near impossible. One slight mistake, and it results in you getting 40+ damage from him, or even a kill at as low as 80% of Up Throw -> Up Air. DI-ing out of it is impossible, after my very many tries. So basically, Bowser might get thrown around a lot, but it's not like he can't move. And getting grabs with him is easy because of his speed. Get 1 grab as him and you are able to deal the same amount of damage that other characters have to struggle to deal. Isn't that cheap? Plus that, if you have over 70% damage, you need to avoid Bowser's grab at all cost, or else you're dead. And not getting grabbed isn't really an easy task...
Well, 40% damage is a bit of an exaggeration. It's 15% until they're high enough that our slow jumpsquat and Nair or Fair can reach. The throw itself does 6, and Utilt is 9. Nair has a damage potential of 24% between its four hits, but the move is not designed to hit four times in any normal situation. More like two, which brings the damage count up to 18. And 19 for Fair and Uair. 40% is feasible for a certain 0% Fair to regrab combo, but assuming you have the stats for that to work, it's too slow to be true.

And yeah, Bowser is good. We were the best heavy in the game before DK got his Cargo Throws reworked. Bowser has priority, range, high knockback, threatening run speed, a short skid stop (suck it, Donkey Kong with your twenty whatever frames, we have 9), Fire Breath is a great answer to threatening projectiles like Fireballs and paralyzer shots. And we make the opponent afraid to shield, because any one of our moves could actually be an 8 frame command grab. We weren't a lost cause character before. We spent a year trying to find out how we're going to reasonably beat these top tiers who can't be punished with anything other pivot grabs.

If this is the last patch update for Bowser, I've got no complaints. I want Flying Slam's grabbox repositioned, but I've lived with that for long enough to not be fooled by it.
 

super fan bros

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Good points. But still: Not getting grabbed by someone with such running speed as Bowser is near impossible. One slight mistake, and it results in you getting 40+ damage from him, or even a kill at as low as 80% of Up Throw -> Up Air. DI-ing out of it is impossible, after my very many tries. So basically, Bowser might get thrown around a lot, but it's not like he can't move. And getting grabs with him is easy because of his speed. Get 1 grab as him and you are able to deal the same amount of damage that other characters have to struggle to deal. Isn't that cheap? Plus that, if you have over 70% damage, you need to avoid Bowser's grab at all cost, or else you're dead. And not getting grabbed is really an easy task...
Yes but it depends from character. Characters like Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu....
Good points. But still: Not getting grabbed by someone with such running speed as Bowser is near impossible. One slight mistake, and it results in you getting 40+ damage from him, or even a kill at as low as 80% of Up Throw -> Up Air. DI-ing out of it is impossible, after my very many tries. So basically, Bowser might get thrown around a lot, but it's not like he can't move. And getting grabs with him is easy because of his speed. Get 1 grab as him and you are able to deal the same amount of damage that other characters have to struggle to deal. Isn't that cheap? Plus that, if you have over 70% damage, you need to avoid Bowser's grab at all cost, or else you're dead. And not getting grabbed isn't really an easy task...
Yes but no. Characters like Sheik, Pikachu, ZSS, Captain Falcon....do not have a lot of difficulty to impose their combo because they are either faster, Bowser is smaller, which is very easy of the combotted.

And I do not speak it very punishable. Some of its attacks have great lag (as its Fsmash, Bomb Bowser, Bair....), not on stage recovery option and a recovery doubtful.


Not as I say Bowser is a good character and may be the best heavy (although DK is often considered for this position), but has of disabling defects, what prevents me from being top tier or high tier. I see well in the last middle tier.
 

GanonDuck

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WwwWario WwwWario you do realise that you were playing one of norways undisputed best players on for glory right? Its wierd that you didnt even recognize the name as you have joined some of the weeklie wi-fi tourneys. He would have destroyed you with any character on the roster, bowser just got that stomp thing going on with him because of his high damage. You should be happy that he didnt pick his Ryu because you would probably go on the Ryu forum instead and write something like "wow Ryu is just stupid he just needs two combos and an uptilt shoryuken kill at 60%, Ryu is the dumbest thing sakurai has ever introduced to the game"

Also, using tags like "IDIOT", "BOWSER=OP", and "FU" before rage quitting is not good sport.
 
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MagiusNecros

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Good points. But still: Not getting grabbed by someone with such running speed as Bowser is near impossible. One slight mistake, and it results in you getting 40+ damage from him, or even a kill at as low as 80% of Up Throw -> Up Air. DI-ing out of it is impossible, after my very many tries. So basically, Bowser might get thrown around a lot, but it's not like he can't move. And getting grabs with him is easy because of his speed. Get 1 grab as him and you are able to deal the same amount of damage that other characters have to struggle to deal. Isn't that cheap? Plus that, if you have over 70% damage, you need to avoid Bowser's grab at all cost, or else you're dead. And not getting grabbed isn't really an easy task...
Bowser has to struggle to get in on people though. Especially zoners that know how to zone effectively. That is very likely the mindset they went with when they altered Bowser's Uthrow. As far as I can see the higher end battles are more balanced now because if we make even 1 mistake we can be spiked to doom or we are combo'd into death for 2 years.

With our new throw we are heavily rewarded IF we get in on someone and land the grab. Instead of getting in and having to rely on a Jab trap or condition an opponent to fall for a deceptive trick.

Our uthrow allows us to do a lot of damage yes but like with other heavies we have to get creative and present blatant openings to create openings on our opponents to get anywhere. Unlike top tier characters who can just 123 combo everyone to death.
 

WwwWario

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WwwWario WwwWario you do realise that you were playing one of norways undisputed best players on for glory right? Its wierd that you didnt even recognize the name as you have joined some of the weeklie wi-fi tourneys. He would have destroyed you with any character on the roster, bowser just got that stomp thing going on with him because of his high damage. You should be happy that he didnt pick his Ryu because you would probably go on the Ryu forum instead and write something like "wow Ryu is just stupid he just needs two combos and an uptilt shoryuken kill at 60%, Ryu is the dumbest thing sakurai has ever introduced to the game"

Also, using tags like "IDIOT", "BOWSER=OP", and "FU" before rage quitting is not good sport.
Wow.. I didn't know :O How do you know who I fought, btw? I should feel honored, being a Norwegian smasher myself.
I definitely know that saying those tags isn't good sport, and I admit that I used them, and I admit that I'm a big douchebag for using them. But I didn't mean it personally, just to get that clear. Those tags were there beforehand that I hadn't used, but a friend of mine used. So, just to get my frustration out, I just found the first bad tag I could find and showed it. I'm very sorry if I came out as offending, I did not mean it. I just needed a way to get my anger out, and I chose some tags I found that weren't nice at all. I was already having a very rough day and literally felt like sh*t, and wasn't really in any mood to care about anyone or anything.

I do think Ryu's Shoryuken is too fast and strong, with so many setups to it. But I don't think it's broken, like I think with Bowser's Up Throw.

Also, saying that I'm so bad I would get destroyed by any character from him, and say that I would probably go and cry over said character saying he's OP, isn't really motivating or good sport of you either, just because I think Bowser's Up Throw is broken :\
 
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33percentgod

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Also, saying that I would get destroyed by any character from him, and say that I would probably go and cry over said character saying he's OP, isn't really motivating or good sport of you either, just because I think Bowser's Up Throw is broken :\

I don't understand why now that Bowser finally has a combo throw people are all saying "it's broken!" Why should Bowser be the only character who DOESN'T have a combo throw? It's not like this makes him top tier. He still gets murdered and taken from 0 to 60% dmg by the chars like Sheik.

It's like people want him to stay bottom tier forever or something. Like he doesn't have any setups and people go "Oh Bowser is fun but not viable." So then he gets a setup and now "Oh Bowser is broken and OP." So what is it, you want him to just live in bottom tier hell forever and be junk at every new Smash sequel until the end of time? Even with this new up-throw set up it's not like Bowser is exactly setting the world on fire, it's just now he has an actual fighting chance.
 

WwwWario

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I don't understand why now that Bowser finally has a combo throw people are all saying "it's broken!" Why should Bowser be the only character who DOESN'T have a combo throw? It's not like this makes him top tier. He still gets murdered and taken from 0 to 60% dmg by the chars like Sheik.

It's like people want him to stay bottom tier forever or something. Like he doesn't have any setups and people go "Oh Bowser is fun but not viable." So then he gets a setup and now "Oh Bowser is broken and OP." So what is it, you want him to just live in bottom tier hell forever and be junk at every new Smash sequel until the end of time? Even with this new up-throw set up it's not like Bowser is exactly setting the world on fire, it's just now he has an actual fighting chance.
Of course I don't want Bowser to be bottom tier. But there are other areas they could have buffed him instead of taking all those buffs and push them on one place - his Up Throw. What about less landing lag on areals, etc? The thing is, any noob can now use Bowser and win, because admit it - how are you supposed to not get grabbed in a game? Doing one mistake, and bowser can grab you because of his running speed. One grab can lead to insanely much damage, and kill as early as 60-70%. A few grabs is literally everything Bowser needs to take a stock, which anyone can do. My point is that they should have buffed him in several other places instead of giving him 1 ultra-good throw.

Also, Bowser isn't the only character without a combo throw. Wario for example has no guaranteed combo throw at all.
 
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super fan bros

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Of course I don't want Bowser to be bottom tier. But there are other areas they could have buffed him instead of taking all those buffs and push them on one place - his Up Throw. What about less landing lag on areals, etc? The thing is, any noob can now use Bowser and win, because admit it - how are you supposed to not get grabbed in a game? Doing one mistake, and bowser can grab you because of his running speed. One grab can lead to insanely much damage, and kill as early as 60-70%. A few grabs is literally everything Bowser needs to take a stock, which anyone can do. My point is that they should have buffed him in several other places instead of giving him 1 ultra-good throw.

Also, Bowser isn't the only character without a combo throw. Wario for example has no guaranteed combo throw at all.
Yes, but it should have been where? Reduce lag would actually rendered Bowser farted
 

MagiusNecros

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More shellguard on shell attacks and buffing tough guy would go a looooong way I think. The new uthrow does seem like a alternate good option but also quick and lazy in hindsight.
 

33percentgod

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My point is that they should have buffed him in several other places instead of giving him 1 ultra-good throw.
Okay, that I can see and understand. Lol that's a much better point other than "BOWSER OP TOP TIER BS!"

And come on, not "any noob" can win with Bowser. Bowser is an extremely hard char to play because of his limitations. Yeah, he has a good grab, but try to get a grab on chars like Link who just projectile wall you to hell or Rosalina where it's almost near impossible to close into her. I can understand saying they should have done small buffs here and there and tweaked him, that's an honest discussion. But to say any noob can win and you're dead if Bowser grabs you....come on now lol that's just hyperbole and being dramatic XD

My point is that they should have buffed him in several other places Also, Bowser isn't the only character without a combo throw. Wario for example has no guaranteed combo throw at all.
I was not aware of that. Thank you for that info. Are there any other chars that don't have a combo throw? I always thought it was just Bowser.

EDIT: whoever on these boards that made this video, I give credit to.


The video is uploaded and tagged by "Gamer Disease (KromosomY)" so whoever that is on these boards.

THIS is the stuff that Bowser needs fixed. The foundation problems. Just adding damage to moves or giving a kill throw is a knee jerk reaction and not fixing the TRUE underlying problems that Bowser has. Bowser's flying slam grab going through people? Clanking and they end up BEHIND you? Fix the problems of the actual game engine. Everyone b*tches about companies releasing things and then trying to back pedal and patch them out later, this is no different. Don't give Nintendo a free pass cause "It's Nintendo."

I think if these issues were addressed we would see a lot of change with Bowser. I have countless replays saved on my Wii U of this nonsense. It's lazy and if it needs to rework down to the code then that's what needs to be done. It's not easy, but this is your product, so own up to it. My personal fav is where did side B, his arm went through the person, they rolled behind me, I did Side B behind me, arm went through, they rolled behind, then I did side B a THIRD time and it went through them. It's almost laughable.

And I don't want to hear "Oh you need to just learn where his hand goes." That's like saying "Oh you just need to watch out for all the broken steps" rather than fixing your porch.
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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I was not aware of that. Thank you for that info. Are there any other chars that don't have a combo throw? I always thought it was just Bowser.
Bowser is the sixth or seventh character to have received a combo throw via a patch, behind Link, Villager, Robin, Charizard, DK, characters who you would never really grab with prior to their updates. Off the top of my head, Marth/Lucina, Samus, Bowser Jr, Wii Fit Trainer, and Jigglypuff have throws that not only don't have true followups, but are also questionably useful for ever putting the opponent in a bad spot. Tech chase scenario, juggling, nothing like that. Bowser too was in this boat. Many more characters have a lack of true followups like Duck Hunt and Toon Link, but they can at least use throws for other things. Duck Hunt's Fthrow sets up nice tech chases, Toon Link's Bthrow can kill reasonably early with positioning and rage, things like that.
 
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GanonDuck

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Wow.. I didn't know :O How do you know who I fought, btw? I should feel honored, being a Norwegian smasher myself.
I definitely know that saying those tags isn't good sport, and I admit that I used them, and I admit that I'm a big douchebag for using them. But I didn't mean it personally, just to get that clear. Those tags were there beforehand that I hadn't used, but a friend of mine used. So, just to get my frustration out, I just found the first bad tag I could find and showed it. I'm very sorry if I came out as offending, I did not mean it. I just needed a way to get my anger out, and I chose some tags I found that weren't nice at all. I was already having a very rough day and literally felt like sh*t, and wasn't really in any mood to care about anyone or anything.

I do think Ryu's Shoryuken is too fast and strong, with so many setups to it. But I don't think it's broken, like I think with Bowser's Up Throw.

Also, saying that I'm so bad I would get destroyed by any character from him, and say that I would probably go and cry over said character saying he's OP, isn't really motivating or good sport of you either, just because I think Bowser's Up Throw is broken :\
I said he would beat you with any character which is largely because he got good fundamentals, BUT you would cry about his Ryu who is a top tier character and got similar "kill early super fast" stuff like bowser has. (also, we got a big skype group and some of the info got shared when he played you, like when you used thoose tags etc, nothing really malicious at all )

Its stupid to say that any scrub can pick up bowser and win with him, he is extremly abusable when people dont know how to play him because of his stupidly high lag on everything and the knowledge you need on how to space your super laggy moves. The uthrow buff is everything i wanted for him because it basically turns him into this games Zangief (pivot grab is literally a limb grabbing light SPD). Heavy weights have always suffered in smash games and giving this kind of power to heavy weights is sorta what i imagine heavy weights to be as your supposed to trade off speed for power, but in a game where (prepatch) all you get from a grab is some positioning and damage with characters like ZSS and meta knight who got tons more dangerous killing power then you its gets pretty demoralizing to play as a big guy when your not really trading speed for power at all, you're just ****ty combo food. Bowser is supposed to be the OG super heavy weight and this buff totally fits his archetype with that he gets strong reward from everything he does while still being a character with big weaknessess.

The biggest problem is that in low or mid tier level grappler type characters with strenghts aimed more at high level play usually dominates pretty hard, but struggles at high level because people learn how to abuse their weaknessess hard there. This is a thing that just happens in fighting games in general. As of me being good sport or motivating i really dont care. I just got madly annoyed that you started to complain at the bowser board after knowing why you came here. Thats not how you get better at smash.
 
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WwwWario

Smash Ace
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Jan 16, 2012
Messages
637
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Norway
Okay, that I can see and understand. Lol that's a much better point other than "BOWSER OP TOP TIER BS!"

And come on, not "any noob" can win with Bowser. Bowser is an extremely hard char to play because of his limitations. Yeah, he has a good grab, but try to get a grab on chars like Link who just projectile wall you to hell or Rosalina where it's almost near impossible to close into her. I can understand saying they should have done small buffs here and there and tweaked him, that's an honest discussion. But to say any noob can win and you're dead if Bowser grabs you....come on now lol that's just hyperbole and being dramatic XD



I was not aware of that. Thank you for that info. Are there any other chars that don't have a combo throw? I always thought it was just Bowser.
Yeah, I may just overreact a bit because I'm not too used to this buff yet xD I'm not sure right now, but I dooo believe Bowser and Wario might be the only ones without a combo throw (or, only Wario after this patch tho). Not sure if Ryu has one.
 

WwwWario

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Messages
637
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Norway
User was warned for this post
I said he would beat you with any character which is largely because he got good fundamentals, BUT you would cry about his Ryu who is a top tier character and got similar "kill early super fast" stuff like bowser has. (also, we got a big skype group and some of the info got shared when he played you, like when you used thoose tags etc, nothing really malicious at all )

Its stupid to say that any scrub can pick up bowser and win with him, he is extremly abusable when people dont know how to play him because of his stupidly high lag on everything and the knowledge you need on how to space your super laggy moves. The uthrow buff is everything i wanted for him because it basically turns him into this games Zangief (pivot grab is literally a limb grabbing light SPD). Heavy weights have always suffered in smash games and giving this kind of power to heavy weights is sorta what i imagine heavy weights to be as your supposed to trade off speed for power, but in a game where (prepatch) all you get from a grab is some positioning and damage with characters like ZSS and meta knight who got tons more dangerous killing power then you its gets pretty demoralizing to play as a big guy when your not really trading speed for power at all, you're just ****ty combo food. Bowser is supposed to be the OG super heavy weight and this buff totally fits his archetype with that he gets strong reward from everything he does while still being a character with big weaknessess.

The biggest problem is that in low or mid tier level grappler type characters with strenghts aimed more at high level play usually dominates pretty hard, but struggles at high level because people learn how to abuse their weaknessess hard there. This is a thing that just happens in fighting games in general. As of me being good sport or motivating i really dont care. I just got madly annoyed that you started to complain at the bowser board after knowing why you came here. Thats not how you get better at smash.
You don't care if you're being a good sport, but you do care if I am? And sorry, but I wouldn't go and cry on the Ryu boards if he destroyed me. I'd get mad for being wrecked, I'm sure I would. But I've asked earlier (not "cried") on the Ryu boards on how he's balanced, and I've gotten very good explanations. It's not nice of you to say I would go and cry over that, like you know it, when I know myself that I wouldn't... :\

But you bring up good points. But I still think it would be better to buff him in several other places, instead of focusing a huge buff at one spot like they did. Lower landing lag on areals, etc. And it's not entirely stupid to say that any scrub can pick up Bowser and win. Maybe not in the high tournament plays, but for all of us trying to get better, you're gonna do some mistakes, and every mistake Bowser can punish. AKA, 3-4 mistakes = dead. But you do bring up good points, and I guess I might just overreact a bit because I'm not used to this buff yet, or because I simply suck.

And the reason I wrote this, was because, yes, I was mad. And I wanted to express and opinion, and wanted someone to prove me wrong, like you guys have. I wasn't trying to offend anyone, so sorry if I came off like that.

Either way, if you're in a Skype group with this these people, I'd be happy if you would give this guy I met a huge apologize for my behavior, and tell him that I had a very rough day, and that I fully admit that showing those tags wasn't nice of me. Thanks.
 
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Zethoro

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I'd say he's in the middle of mid-tier. This was a big deal for him (let's not forget the whirling fortress buff either because that was also a big deal), but he's still not as good as DK who actually has a good airgame, and I put DK at the very top of midtier personally.
 

Dar4

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
140
After playing against some good Bowsers a lot the past week or two, he's definitely better. But...his same old big weaknesses are still there that good players will exploit. You now just have to adjust to his grab buffs by camping him more in this matchup than pre patch. If you play not to get grabbed the matchup really isn't much different than before the buff. He did go from low tier to mid tier though for sure, but not any higher than that.

I definitely don't think he's as good as Ike. Or DK for that matter. He is now better than Dedede for sure though. He now has a shot at beating the top tiers if he can land a few grabs, whereas before he just got straight bodied.
 
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Vysetron

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The Bowz is still the Bowz. He still has big character problems. He's just a lot better when he actually gets in now. One of my favorite changes is down B working from both sides now, honestly, and that's just a minor usability tweak.

Not letting a giant firebreathing wrestling turtle grab you is generally a pretty good life choice anyway.
 

pitfall356

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 25, 2015
Messages
140
One of my favorite changes is down B working from both sides now, honestly, and that's just a minor usability tweak.
... wut
You've always been able to use Bomb in either direction. Just roll the stick towards the direction you want to go after pressing special.
 
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