How much better is bowser after the 1.1.3 patch?

[bushaheen]

If you didnt know bowser got bombed with the biggest buffs/fixes that we bowser mains have dreamed of happening which are:

1- up throw now is a combo throw and could even set up into an up air kill between 90-120% (depending on weight)

2-you can grab the ledge with bowser up b while looking away from the ledge (pre patch if you were not in the direction of the ledge while using up-b you will not grab the ledge unless if the up-b animation ended which gave you all the time in the world to spike you)

3-side b has invincibility once you grab your opponent which helps a bit in certain MU

overall bowser became alot better and i want to know your opinions on him in my opinion i think that now he has a much better chance to win hard MU which he previously needed to know the MU very well to win them and i also think that the u-throw buff now rewards you for reading your opponent (before if you read a roll from your opponent and grabbed them you will only get around ~15% and maybe kill at 110% if they were near the ledge but now you will deal around 24% and kill at around ~95%)

 

[Cronoc]

Before I answer the poll, where does the bottom of high tier start? Top 20? Cause I'm not convinced we're top 20 even with these buffs...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'd say that top 20 is realistic, but only if he's at the very last place, which is still very good!

In other words, 20th at best.

 

[bushaheen]

Before I answer the poll, where does the bottom of high tier start? Top 20? Cause I'm not convinced we're top 20 even with these buffs...

right beside DK who had a similar buff

 

[bushaheen]

Also if anyone is wondering rage dosent ruin the u-throw up-air kill set up but instead improve as i was able to kill cloud by grabbing him at 75% and u-throw up-air with 134% rage

 

[MrEh]

Rage does ruin the setup in some situations. It just depends on the character and percent.

Cloud is one of those characters where even if he's above the usual threshold for a fullhop Uair, you can just SH DJ Uair and it works. Ike and Falcon are similar. It's easy to adjust on the fly, and it makes these characters very vulnerable to the combo in general.

Whereas characters like Rosalina and Luigi are really weird and the percentages and setup that you need to use vary a lot. Against these two characters, I had to actually full hop double jump Uair just to hit them at certain percents, and that was a very tiiiight link since it's not a straightforward buffer.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I would say bottom of high tier. I would be happier with a "top of mid-tier" option. Bowser is definitely much more threatening with his combo throw, invulnerability frames on Klaw and the ability to snap to the ledge with Reverse Fortress. W/ a true combo that kills anything past 120%? He is easily one of, if not, THE best heavyweight right now.

 

[Top Boss]

Uh. I'm not exactly a Bowser main but I don't think he is as good as DK. I guess that can speak for itself.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Uh. I'm not exactly a Bowser main but I don't think he is as good as DK. I guess that can speak for itself.

We will see, but I did say he is one of, if not....
I would be overconfident to say he is definitely the best right now.

 

[Top Boss]

I'm not sure exactly where I would place him, but probably somewhere in the upper half of mid tier.

 

[bushaheen]

Rage does ruin the setup in some situations. It just depends on the character and percent.

Cloud is one of those characters where even if he's above the usual threshold for a fullhop Uair, you can just SH DJ Uair and it works. Ike and Falcon are similar. It's easy to adjust on the fly, and it makes these characters very vulnerable to the combo in general.

Whereas characters like Rosalina and Luigi are really weird and the percentages and setup that you need to use vary a lot. Against these two characters, I had to actually full hop double jump Uair just to hit them at certain percents, and that was a very tiiiight link since it's not a straightforward buffer.

Even with rage at higher percentages it is still a 50/50 (if they airdoge you wait for it then punish and if they do something else you can straight up-air) and a guranteed kill set up until around 110% (depending on weight) and a 50/50 for 120-160% is more than is more than enough for a combo throw (all in all rage either makes the kill set up better or makes it a 50/50)

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Is it just me or is F-Smash faster?

 

[pitfall356]

It's just you.

 

[Dar4]

He still can't land, he's still combo food, his hurtbox is still enormous, his recovery still isn't good, he still gets camped for days.

Of course he's moving up, but I don't think there's any way he's higher than mid tier. No way he's top 20. Looking forward to see what types of things bowser mains come up with after these buffs though, maybe I'll be proven wrong.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

He still can't land, he's still combo food, his hurtbox is still enormous, his recovery still isn't good, he still gets camped for days.

Of course he's moving up, but I don't think there's any way he's higher than mid tier. No way he's top 20. Looking forward to see what types of things bowser mains come up with after these buffs though, maybe I'll be proven wrong.

Bowser can virtually remove landing lag by using Klaw just before he lands.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

He's combo food, but his weight allows him to take the damage and strike back with rage. Thanks to the buffs we're much better at closing out stocks, so landing that one solid hit to your opponents 3-4 hits means a lot more.

Getting camped is an issue. We still have to approach though sheik needles and whatnot, but luckily most zoning characters not named villager are pretty bad in this game.

We get rewarded heavily off of grabs now. ~28% might not seem that impactful when thinking of a character like, say shiek. But on a hard hitter like bowser, that's 1/3 of a stock. I wouldn't be surprised if bowser was top 20. His risk factor is still there, but his reward and his consistency have been significantly improved.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

I think DK is still better than Bowser, and Ding Dong is still better because it kills earlier than Bowser's Koo Pa combo.
DK also has less landing lag and better mobility which gives him more options against the top tiers. In particular, his jab can confirm into grabs and kills (DKWill found a pivot utilt combo), and his Dtilt trips which can lead into a grab or smash attack, and his Bair has more utility than Bowser's due to its longer lasting hitbox.

That being said, Bowser's buffs boost him into the same tier as DK I'd say.

 

[bushaheen]

He still can't land, he's still combo food, his hurtbox is still enormous, his recovery still isn't good, he still gets camped for days.

Of course he's moving up, but I don't think there's any way he's higher than mid tier. No way he's top 20. Looking forward to see what types of things bowser mains come up with after these buffs though, maybe I'll be proven wrong.

i understand where you come from but i wanna correct some things

1-he dosent have no options to land but instead has unsafe options that he can use like evryone. he has to commit to them and use them becouse if he uses one at the wrong time he will be back in the air again

2-he is combo food and thats really his biggest weakness since he has little counter play against combos but he makes up for it a little bit by living for very long and abusing rage

3-being big is not a weakness by it own but one of the reasons for being combo food and being a little eaiser to catch his landings

4-his recovery is not bad but exploitable what does that mean? this mean that he does have a good recovery that will always make him comeback (unless if he is spiked) and gives him enough options to mix up his recovery but if he gets his recovery read and gets spiked he is done but as a bowser player you should always mix him your recovery

5-he really dosent get camped as people say he does since they always forget he is fast and can punish campers for doing a mistake very well with his combo throw and evrey camper needs to commit to something when you get near them and that situation you can bait and punish them which is bowsers specialty and if they dont commit to a option and literately stay there and keep shooting thats even easier to punish

all in all bowser does have weaknesses like evryone but you made them bigger than what they are and forget that he has advantages to make up for his weaknesses

 

[bushaheen]

I think DK is still better than Bowser, and Ding Dong is still better because it kills earlier than Bowser's Koo Pa combo.
DK also has less landing lag and better mobility which gives him more options against the top tiers. In particular, his jab can confirm into grabs and kills (DKWill found a pivot utilt combo), and his Dtilt trips which can lead into a grab or smash attack, and his Bair has more utility than Bowser's due to its longer lasting hitbox.

That being said, Bowser's buffs boost him into the same tier as DK I'd say.

i 100% agree with you and like you i think they arent very far apart from each other but bowser has some advantages over dk that may give bowser better experience in certain MU than what woukd dk have (and also vice versa for dk but thats another topic) such as more run speed and a better dash grab and pivot grab and even tho dk has grab setups bowers does have jab into grab and also bowser has and air grab in side b that is better than dk side b (dk side b does break sheilds but is more risky) and lastly bowser has stronger smashes than dk which help in sheild break and hard read situations (bowser can kill you at 20% if he breaks your sheild while dk will kill you at around 40-60%)

 

[Zigsta]

He's definitely better, but it's too early to tell how much better. More testing and results are needed.

 

[Big-Cat]

This is something he was seriously needing. One ongoing issue with Bowser was that if you attack with him, the space between you and the opponent increases after attacking. This isn't about combos though, but momentum.

UThrow's changes now greatly limit where the opponent can go really. We have 50/50 drop kick mixups, can stuff the vast majority of counter attacks with USmash, and more. That being said, the problem with UThrow IS rage and higher percentages lessening the reward off of UThrow. That's where Side B comes into play. I'll need to do more testing, but at about the point where you get out of range with a UThrow followup, you can Klaw them for that kill.

As for his tier placing, I'd say his absolute lowest position, counting Bayonetta and Corn, he's right in the middle at the absolute worst. Top 20 would be nice, but, he has to worry about Villager *shudders* and Roalina. Because of his apparent weakness as being combo food, he won't be top 10 any time soon. Still, save for very specific matchups, I'd say he's getting to where you can solo with him.

Though I was already working on research to where a secondary wasn't needed, but that's another discussion.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

i understand where you come from but i wanna correct some things

1-he dosent have no options to land but instead has unsafe options that he can use like evryone. he has to commit to them and use them becouse if he uses one at the wrong time he will be back in the air again

2-he is combo food and thats really his biggest weakness since he has little counter play against combos but he makes up for it a little bit by living for very long and abusing rage

3-being big is not a weakness by it own but one of the reasons for being combo food and being a little eaiser to catch his landings

4-his recovery is not bad but exploitable what does that mean? this mean that he does have a good recovery that will always make him comeback (unless if he is spiked) and gives him enough options to mix up his recovery but if he gets his recovery read and gets spiked he is done but as a bowser player you should always mix him your recovery

5-he really dosent get camped as people say he does since they always forget he is fast and can punish campers for doing a mistake very well with his combo throw and evrey camper needs to commit to something when you get near them and that situation you can bait and punish them which is bowsers specialty and if they dont commit to a option and literately stay there and keep shooting thats even easier to punish

all in all bowser does have weaknesses like evryone but you made them bigger than what they are and forget that he has advantages to make up for his weaknesses

Bowser still has issues landing - Dair and Down B are both mixups, and not reliable landing options unless your opponent chases you high up so that you can finish the landing lag before getting intercepted.
He's still screwed against the top tiers, as Bowser has almost no safe options in neutral aside from Jab. This matters a hell of a lot because in high level play you NEED safe options to bait and punish opponents.
Being big is a weakness in a fighting game where size translates to how easily you are hit and combo'd (See: Sheik, Mario, and Ryu's combos on heavyweights)

They are significant weaknesses that prevent him from surpassing DK, who has better mobility and safer options, as well as Ike, who has a better neutral and combos that don't rely on grab (Dtilt and Nair can also link into other attacks)
Bowser is still a character of extremes - he will give and take significant damage depending on who has the advantage state. Against low and mid level players he can wreck them with ease. But against high level players these are crippling weaknesses that force an overreliance on reads.

 

[Zigsta]

This is something he was seriously needing. One ongoing issue with Bowser was that if you attack with him, the space between you and the opponent increases after attacking. This isn't about combos though, but momentum.

UThrow's changes now greatly limit where the opponent can go really. We have 50/50 drop kick mixups, can stuff the vast majority of counter attacks with USmash, and more. That being said, the problem with UThrow IS rage and higher percentages lessening the reward off of UThrow. That's where Side B comes into play. I'll need to do more testing, but at about the point where you get out of range with a UThrow followup, you can Klaw them for that kill.

As for his tier placing, I'd say his absolute lowest position, counting Bayonetta and Corn, he's right in the middle at the absolute worst. Top 20 would be nice, but, he has to worry about Villager *shudders* and Roalina. Because of his apparent weakness as being combo food, he won't be top 10 any time soon. Still, save for very specific matchups, I'd say he's getting to where you can solo with him.

Though I was already working on research to where a secondary wasn't needed, but that's another discussion.

Villager isn't a difficult MU though. It's literally all shielding and jabbing. After this patch, the MU is going to be even easier. It's just really, really boring.

 

[bushaheen]

Bowser still has issues landing - Dair and Down B are both mixups, and not reliable landing options unless your opponent chases you high up so that you can finish the landing lag before getting intercepted.
He's still screwed against the top tiers, as Bowser has almost no safe options in neutral aside from Jab. This matters a hell of a lot because in high level play you NEED safe options to bait and punish opponents.
Being big is a weakness in a fighting game where size translates to how easily you are hit and combo'd (See: Sheik, Mario, and Ryu's combos on heavyweights)

They are significant weaknesses that prevent him from surpassing DK, who has better mobility and safer options, as well as Ike, who has a better neutral and combos that don't rely on grab (Dtilt and Nair can also link into other attacks)
Bowser is still a character of extremes - he will give and take significant damage depending on who has the advantage state. Against low and mid level players he can wreck them with ease. But against high level players these are crippling weaknesses that force an overreliance on reads.

i dont know much about high level game play since i dont know if i reached to that point yet but im pretty sure short hop fair and d-tilt/f-tilt and fire breath (only vs really grounded characters) are safe options in netural not to mention that up-b out of shield will mean that your opponent cant touch your shield (they can tomahawk grab you but that by itself is a completly another story)

 

[Big-Cat]

Bowser still has issues landing - Dair and Down B are both mixups, and not reliable landing options unless your opponent chases you high up so that you can finish the landing lag before getting intercepted.
He's still screwed against the top tiers, as Bowser has almost no safe options in neutral aside from Jab. This matters a hell of a lot because in high level play you NEED safe options to bait and punish opponents.
Being big is a weakness in a fighting game where size translates to how easily you are hit and combo'd (See: Sheik, Mario, and Ryu's combos on heavyweights)

They are significant weaknesses that prevent him from surpassing DK, who has better mobility and safer options, as well as Ike, who has a better neutral and combos that don't rely on grab (Dtilt and Nair can also link into other attacks)
Bowser is still a character of extremes - he will give and take significant damage depending on who has the advantage state. Against low and mid level players he can wreck them with ease. But against high level players these are crippling weaknesses that force an overreliance on reads.

Maybe it's just me, but jab, fire breath, tilts, and the occasional Up B are really all you need. I find that Bowser's neutral is a mix of scaring the opponent to stay away from and end up at the edge, and at the same time want to go after Bowser out of desperation. He's not someone that really needs to toss out an attack every second. In fact, I've found that my losses in tournaments are primarily because I get desperate and try to do footsies like them or worse, rush in.

 

[Cronoc]

Bowser can virtually remove landing lag by using Klaw just before he lands.

This has the side effect of extending his hurtbox, unfortunately. I've been hit by all sorts of things because of using Klaw to cancel landing lag. I still do it all the time, but it has situational trade-offs. I actually feel pretty good about the DK matchup, but I'm not convinced we're better than DK generally. Given the buffs other characters have gotten since launch, I'd say this patch puts us back to around where we started - maybe around the end of top 25.

 

[Big Sean]

Here's the way I see it. We already had a kill throw around 125%. Now we have one that against people who are good at DIing kills at maybe 105%. So to me already that's a pretty minor buff. At lower percentages we now have up throw -> up tilt for 15%. We used to have up throw -> fair for 23% so that's clearly a nerf. At mid percentages up throw -> nair would be nice if we always got 30%. Unfortunately we usually get between 18% and 24%. So that's a minor buff.

I think though thing that makes me think that it may not help our game all that much is that after we are done with our up throw combos, now our follow ups are all about catching their landings. Before when we used nonstop fthrow/bthrow we would throw them off the stage and our followups with be all about ledge guarding. Punishing landings, in my opinion is a much harder prospect than reading get up options with fortress. I think Bowser is actually really really good a ledge guarding, but against somebody with good landing options, it's rare that we get a good follow up after up throw even when they burn their double jump.

So yeah overall I see this as being a minor buff. I'm going to be playing very up throw heavy for now just to see the possibilities. I completely forsee me doing the following after my experimentation is done:

0-35% - up throw -> up tilt
35-70% - up throw -> nair
70-105% - fthrow/bthrow
105-130% - up throw -> up air
> 130% - fthrow/bthrow

 

[Volimutt]

I did a little labbing and came to this using the weight classes on Kurogane for reference. To cut it a little short I used the heaviest character in each weight class to test these on. This is a just a rough draft and no rage or Di is taken into effect so consider these rough estimates. Feel free free to test em yourself on real opponents.

Up throw options
~= Approxiamte % range
*= They can likely DI
?= Questionable(Can maybe jump or contest)

Ballon Weight
> Up-Tilt- 0% - 4% True
> (FH)N-air - 0% - 28% True?
> Up-Smash - 0% - 4% ?

Kill Secures
> (FH)Up-Air - 70% - 111% True?*
> (DJ)B-air
>Near edge- 58% - 88%
>Center stage- 77% - 88%

FeatherWeight
> Up-Tilt- 0% - 34% True
> (FH)N-air - 0% - 45% True?
> (DJ) N-air - 46% - 75%
> Up-Smash - 0% - 35% True?

Kill Secures
> (DJ)Up-Air - 83% - 115%
> (DJ)B-air
>Near Edge- 65% - 110%
Center Stage- 85% - 110%

Middle Weight
> Up-Tilt- 0% - 43%
>(SH)N-air- 0% - 21%
> (FH)N-air - 6% - 52%
> (DJ) N-air - 53% - 73%
> Up-Smash - 0% - 36%

Kill Secures
> (DJ)Up-Air - 91% ~ 125%
> (DJ)B-air
>Near Edge- 73% ~ 112%
Center Stage- 95% ~ 112%

Heavy Weight
> Up-Tilt- 0% - 57%
>(SH)N-air- 0% - 41%
> (FH)N-air - 12% - 64%
> (DJ) N-air - 65% - 97%
> Up-Smash - 0% - 55%

Kill Secures
> (DJ)Up-Air - 98% - 135%
> (DJ)B-air
>Near Edge- 73% ~ 128%
Center Stage- 95% ~ 128%


Superheavy Weight
> Up-Tilt- 0% - 64%
>(SH)N-air- 0% - 37%
> (FH)N-air - 6% - 65%
> (DJ) N-air - 66% - 95%
> Up-Smash - 0% - 64%

Kill Secures
> (DJ)Up-Air - 102% - 150%
> (DJ)B-air
>Near Edge- 87% ~ 126%
Center Stage- 115% ~ 126%

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

At lower percentages we now have up throw -> up tilt for 15%. We used to have up throw -> fair for 23% so that's clearly a nerf.

When was the old Uthrow to Fair ever a true combo though? Even on fast fallers they could burn double jump at 0% to escape it, especially with proper DI. And besides 0% there was virtually no combo-ability. That's why we hated the move.

The new Uthrow is a net gain on Bowser's viability. A previously bad move is now useful for something until they reach high kill %. It's also Bowser's one bread and butter move that isn't jab 1 poking in hopes of getting a good Bowser Bomb or Flying Slam followup or using pivot grab. I also like the Uthrow's speed increase and collateral hitbox buff. Bowser was already one of the best equipped fighters for killing Luma, now he has another good tool.

The other changes are also good, though not as dynamic. Bowsers no longer need to fear running offstage to edgeguard opponents now that Fortress grabs the ledge behind us. Our edgeguards are significantly improved now that it's safer for us as return to the ledge. The Flying Slam speed increase gives the victim much less time to decide on which direction they'd like to control the move. And if you're too late to start holding a direction, you lose very large amounts of your control. This means more intentional bowsercides and better control overall. It's also a better move for doubles scenarios because of intangibility frames and general speed increase.

Bowser being a better character in 1.13 is without question. As for how much better, that's up to his player base to decide. Right now we're receiving an influx of new players that probably won't take the time to really learn the character, quit a week later, and we can get back to our steady flow of high placements at tournaments from real Bowser mains. I'm optimistic. Not so optimistic to say that Bowser is going to be taking 1st at the next national, but maybe a top 8? Top 32? Who knows.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

If @KingKong_ad hasn't already posted it elsewhere, he has uploaded a video of a U-Throw to D-Air dunk. Very interesting.

 

[Cronoc]

0-35% - up throw -> up tilt
0-70% - up throw -> nair
70-105% - fthrow/bthrow
105-130% - up throw -> up air
> 130% - fthrow/bthrow

This is about right but it gets more complicated. In practice that early percent uthrow to utilt sets ups 2 or possibly 3 things.

0-35% uthrow -> utilt
After that first utilt:

- if they airdodge we can usmash or utilt again
- if they jump we can catch them with a nair
- if they try to attack us on the ground we can usmash (if given the time) or shield into another uthrow or punish.

Around 40% I get greedy and go straight for uthrow to usmash since it's seemingly guaranteed and can't be punished (yeah yeah I'm sure there's some characters this doesn't work on), but after that there is again the chance to jump into a nair or catch the landing (I think dash attack is ideal if they're moving fast, it at least resets the situation and tacks on damage).

45-70% upthrow -> nair leads into a possible second nair (either double jumped or from the ground again). There's a whole metagame to play as to whether you attempt to challenge them in the air or catch the landing.

I want to say though, that catching the landing from uthrow or nair is not the same as catching the landing after the prepatch uthrow -> fair. The new uthrow and non-bair/fair followups still keep our opponents straight above us. Part of what made catching landings difficult before was the extreme height and distance uthrow and fair would throw opponents. Those opponents have less options now, given that we don't have to chase them horizontally before committing to an option. Of course characters with movement options are unique, that just has to be lived with.

At 75%+ I'm perfectly fine with going for uthrow -> uair. In my experience the next time I use uair for the kill it has not been staled significantly enough to stop it from KO'ing. But at higher percents is where I need some more experience. Perhaps uthrow into fair might still work, and be preferable to fthrow/bthrow, I don't know. I need more time to figure out 60%+...

 

[MrEh]

Aside from low percent Uthrow to Utilt combos, I just do Uthrow to Nair all the time because I like the damage and positioning.

When they get to kill percents, I go for the Uair.

 

[Zigsta]

If @KingKong_ad hasn't already posted it elsewhere, he has uploaded a video of a U-Throw to D-Air dunk. Very interesting.

This was definitely a thing pre-patch. I've done it in tournament a handful of times. Jump towards the opponent, bait the AD, and the dair spike them. Super flashy. I haven't played around with it post-patch, but it seems like it'd still work using the same principles.

 

[Wiley]

The thing about DK is he has major trouble vs fox. Bowser has more tools for fox. They're both combo fodder, but as a fox secondary Bowser is a bigger threat to me right now, though still should be in my favor.

I think this poll is missing a key slot like a 'top of mid tier option.' It's essentially the same thing, but I don't think he's high tier yet, unless I'm missing something. Shiek and Rosa are still going to be hell, he still can't land just because he has a throw combo and kill setup. I will admit this is an awesome patch though.

I play plenty of Bowser even if I don't consider him a main and he was already so damn fun.

 

[bushaheen]

This is about right but it gets more complicated. In practice that early percent uthrow to utilt sets ups 2 or possibly 3 things.

0-35% uthrow -> utilt
After that first utilt:

- if they airdodge we can usmash or utilt again
- if they jump we can catch them with a nair
- if they try to attack us on the ground we can usmash (if given the time) or shield into another uthrow or punish.

Around 40% I get greedy and go straight for uthrow to usmash since it's seemingly guaranteed and can't be punished (yeah yeah I'm sure there's some characters this doesn't work on), but after that there is again the chance to jump into a nair or catch the landing (I think dash attack is ideal if they're moving fast, it at least resets the situation and tacks on damage).

45-70% upthrow -> nair leads into a possible second nair (either double jumped or from the ground again). There's a whole metagame to play as to whether you attempt to challenge them in the air or catch the landing.

I want to say though, that catching the landing from uthrow or nair is not the same as catching the landing after the prepatch uthrow -> fair. The new uthrow and non-bair/fair followups still keep our opponents straight above us. Part of what made catching landings difficult before was the extreme height and distance uthrow and fair would throw opponents. Those opponents have less options now, given that we don't have to chase them horizontally before committing to an option. Of course characters with movement options are unique, that just has to be lived with.

At 75%+ I'm perfectly fine with going for uthrow -> uair. In my experience the next time I use uair for the kill it has not been staled significantly enough to stop it from KO'ing. But at higher percents is where I need some more experience. Perhaps uthrow into fair might still work, and be preferable to fthrow/bthrow, I don't know. I need more time to figure out 60%+...

you can actully use fair instead of u-air and its a good way to not stale u-air or maybe your opponent will expect and u-air and di away to live longer and since di away from fair makes it kill earlier this could be a new kill set-up

 

[S_B]

Shiek and Rosa are still going to be hell, he still can't land just because he has a throw combo and kill setup. I will admit this is an awesome patch though.

I play plenty of Bowser even if I don't consider him a main and he was already so damn fun.

At least we can Bair Sheik at the ledge for a kill at 67%...

As for how Bowser will do overall, only time will tell, and that's one of the key reasons I've been watching the tournament scene like a hawk. Initial Bowser results are exceedingly promising, with KK taking the Montreal tourney and LeTroof getting 2nd at Xanadu, I'd say it's extremely encouraging.

 

[33percentgod]

Until Bowser's collision detection and hitboxes are fixed, no amount of buffing or move sets will help him. What good does the change to Flying Slam do when your opponent bumps into you and ends up behind you? It's like talking about putting in new bathroom tile in your house while your basement foundation is crumbling.

 

[bushaheen]

Until Bowser's collision detection and hitboxes are fixed, no amount of buffing or move sets will help him. What good does the change to Flying Slam do when your opponent bumps into you and ends up behind you? It's like talking about putting in new bathroom tile in your house while your basement foundation is crumbling.

Bowsers hitboxes are fine yes i know his f-tilt can miss if your really close to your opponent and same with klaw but these moves only miss if you roll behind/infront of your opponent and use them or land near the opponent and use them but in these situation you shouldnt use these moves even if your trying to grab with klaw just space yourself so that the move actually land it only misses if your really close to your opponent (also you making the problem seem bigger than it really is the problem is not even noticeable unless in rare situations TBH)

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Bowsers hitboxes are fine yes i know his f-tilt can miss if your really close to your opponent and same with klaw but these moves only miss if you roll behind/infront of your opponent and use them or land near the opponent and use them but in these situation you shouldnt use these moves even if your trying to grab with klaw just space yourself so that the move actually land it only misses if your really close to your opponent (also you making the problem seem bigger than it really is the problem is not even noticeable unless in rare situations TBH)

It's actually one of Bowser's biggest flaws in Sm4sh. Several Bowser mains have stated that a Klaw or F-tilt that should have hit whiffed because the opponent was inside Bowser, and costed them the match. While many of the recent buffs were extremely helpful to Bowser, his only real problem left is his hitboxes. Sadly, I don't think that'd something that can be fixed easily.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Even with the new Hoo-Ha he still suffers from the same problems as other heavyweights. I don't think he's as good as Ike and Roy who are both bottom of high tier, so he's probably one of the best or better mid tiers.