How many shines to break a shield?

[Shai Hulud]

Somebody tell me please, I can't find this information and can think of no easy way to test it. Perhaps someone with AR can help me out?

Also, how many shines if you first hit the shield with a dair?

How many dair=>double shine pillars? dair=>triple shine?

I'm interested in combinations that might be doable. I can dair=>double shine pillar pretty well but this isn't very difficult to escape. I'm working on dair=>triple shine but my consistency is not very good at this point.

Are there any Falcos who can break shields with any consistency?

 

[ThreeX]

3 words- just keep going :]

 

[Grunt]

i got 1 dair>6shines on a light shield.
dair>double shine twice did it too.

:\ not sure on normal shields though.

 

[Eggm]

I guess your assuming the guy is shield DIing towards you if not naturally without shield DI they get out of shine range after 3 shines. I've seen my buddy reik multishine my friend moo against a wall and break his shield it took about 6-7 multishines.

 

[3GOD]

i got 1 dair>6shines on a light shield.
dair>double shine twice did it too.

:\ not sure on normal shields though.

I got Dair --> Double Shine to take 2 repetitions plus one extra Dair (on full shield)

I guess your assuming the guy is shield DIing towards you if not naturally without shield DI they get out of shine range after 3 shines. I've seen my buddy reik multishine my friend moo against a wall and break his shield it took about 6-7 multishines.

It took me 7 shines, but yeah they either have to DI into the shines or be against a wall.

 

[Shai Hulud]

I guess your assuming the guy is shield DIing towards you if not naturally without shield DI they get out of shine range after 3 shines. I've seen my buddy reik multishine my friend moo against a wall and break his shield it took about 6-7 multishines.

So they wouldn't be able to get out of range of dair=>triple shine then?

Also could someone explain "shield DI"? Does this mean you just hold away while shielding? And in that case wouldn't you be able to shield poke? Or does it refer to the knockback experienced when your shield is hit, and you "shield DI" by positioning your shield in various places to change the knockback direction?

 

[Vro]

Data from Scotu's Shield Pressure Research.

The shield (not light shield) Stays up for exactly 215 frames (yoshi's is 1 more). When an attack hits it, it weakens the shield.
This amount of damage can be measured by counting the number of frames subtracted from the shields total lifespan.
Therefore, the amount of damage a move inflicts on a shield can be quantified by the frames in duration it removes from the shields lifespan.

So, essentially, a shield has 215 HP, and you moves that hit it deal a set # of damage compared against those HP.
Also, a shield will take 1 damage every frame it's out (not in hit stun) by definition (shield decay).

Data from Phanna's Frame of Hitlag and Shieldstun.

NOTE: The first number is frames of hitlag. The second number is frames of total shield stun.

Falco: Specials

* 05 10 Down-B
* 04 07 Neutral-B
* 05 10 Side-B
* 08 17 Up-B

Note Below: Green is while the shield is in stun. Red is no stun.

Multishining


1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne, shine, Hitlag
14 Hitlag
15 Hitlag
16 Hitlag
17 Hitlag
18
19
20 Land, Start Jump for repeat
21
22
23
24
25 Airborne, Shine, Hitlag

So... shields have 215 HP. Each shine of a multishine takes 12 frames before the next shine can execute, given perfect input. Each shine subtracts 10 HP. According to Scotu, shields will decay by 1 HP for every frame they are not in shield stun. Between each multishine, there are 2 frames where there is no shield stun. So...

215 - (10+2)X = 0
X = 17.91

Where 215 is a full shield's HP, 10 is the amount of shield stun per shine, 2 is the shield decay experienced in between shines, X is the number of shines, 0 is a broken shield.

So, 18 perfect multishines. Sorry for the long post. But, I hope it's as accurate as it gets.

Edit: Here's a video of a fox multishining Link. His data is slightly different, but as you can see, 10 shines isn't enough.

 

[Shai Hulud]

I guess your assuming the guy is shield DIing towards you if not naturally without shield DI they get out of shine range after 3 shines. I've seen my buddy reik multishine my friend moo against a wall and break his shield it took about 6-7 multishines.

I just remembered you can move forward by multishining if you angle the stick left/right while jumping. You can do this without fear of over-Bing if you angle more than 45 degrees below the horizontal. Would your opponent still be able to get out of range?

And Vro that data is for Fox's multishine. Falco's comes out slower so there's more decay between shines, and it also does more damage to the shield.

 

[Vro]

And Vro that data is for Fox's multishine. Falco's comes out slower so there's more decay between shines, and it also does more damage to the shield.

False. This is Fox's:

Multishining:

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5
6
7 Start Jump
8
9
10 Airborne, Shine, Hitlag
11 Hitlag
12 Hitlag
13 Hitlag
14
15
16 Land, Start Jump
17
18
19 Airborne, Shine

Shield Damage: 5/ shine, 1 frame shield decay. Total 6/ iteration.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Well there's just no way it takes 18 shines to break a shield. I assume 3GOD tested this in AR and he got seven shines. There has to be an error somewhere in Scotu's data.

 

[3GOD]

So... shields have 215 HP. Each shine of a multishine takes 12 frames before the next shine can execute, given perfect input. Each shine subtracts 10 HP...

...So, 18 perfect multishines. Sorry for the long post. But, I hope it's as accurate as it gets.

I think the mistake is highlighted here. Shield stun refers to how many frames the shielding player is unable to do anything. There is apparently another component of each attack which I would call "Shield Damage." I don't know what the actual Shield Damage is for the Shine, but I did in fact test this with Action Replay, and it takes 7 shines to break a shield.

 

[Vro]

I see. I confused shield stun with shield damage. Do you know where I can find the data for shield damage?

 

[Eggm]

Shield DI is when you smash DI while in the shield. You can be out of shine range after 1 shine if your good enough with shield DI. Magus does it with ganon he shield DI's out of shine range and just grabs you its gay.
m2k often shield DI's strong attacks towards you like f smashes to land grabs after them and not slide too far away. It has nothing to do with tilting your shield in a direction while holding it. You have to slam a direction as your hit while in the shield. You move quite far try it out.

 

[DaShizWiz]

........ is someone actually trying to break a shield with shines?

Cause I never use it for that reason. I find it best for just pressuring your opponent. So when they try to jump from the shield or whatever i hit them with a shine, then start a combo.

 

[Professor Pro]

i got 1 dair>6shines on a light shield.
dair>double shine twice did it too.

:\ not sure on normal shields though.

Sounds like a lie due to the light shield bit.

 

[Shai Hulud]

........ is someone actually trying to break a shield with shines?

Cause I never use it for that reason. I find it best for just pressuring your opponent. So when they try to jump from the shield or whatever i hit them with a shine, then start a combo.

Well yeah, I'm trying not specifically to break shields but to be able to pressure shields sufficiently so they can't get out by buffering a roll, jumping, shield-grabbing, etc. I was interested in the shield-break number to set an upper limit on shines required for shield-pressuring, and if I actually do break a shield from time to time that's good as well.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Also, is there a reason NOT to keep shining someone's shield if one is able to do it? Is the possibility of someone shield DIing the shines really that high? I wasn't even aware you COULD shield DI until this thread, but then again I'm not one of the top Smashers so there is perhaps a lot I don't know.

I mean, what else should you do when you hit your opponent's shield? dair=> shine repetitions are pretty easy to get out of. There's shine=>grab but unfortunately Falco can't combo well from grabs (at least mine can't). So when you guys are saying shining a shield repeatedly isn't a good idea, what do you mean? As opposed to what?

 

[xJin678]

The shine seems to push the shield away. Watch at 2:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjbRMKjl0b0

 

[Shai Hulud]

The shine seems to push the shield away. Watch at 2:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjbRMKjl0b0

Yeah, it does, but you can tilt the stick and move between shines. In that video the Falco wouldn't have been grabbed if he'd tilted the stick, but you can still shield DI to get out of range.

I did 16 multishines in a match the other day. I wish this technique were more useful. =(

 

[Oskurito]

lol Why bother doing that much shines when you can just jc grab out of shine or just simply grab your opponent. If you're shlasering consistently on the match try grabs when approaching more often than aerials and see what happens. If you can't combo out of grabs effectively watch lambchops, shiz or forward (that's better than me giving you advice on grab comboing; but, I have to say that I'm pretty good at it)

 

[takieddine]

tourney ***s

 

[Shai Hulud]

lol Why bother doing that much shines when you can just jc grab out of shine or just simply grab your opponent. If you're shlasering consistently on the match try grabs when approaching more often than aerials and see what happens. If you can't combo out of grabs effectively watch lambchops, shiz or forward (that's better than me giving you advice on grab comboing; but, I have to say that I'm pretty good at it)

Yeah I don't combo very well out of grabs at all. I can do a lot more if I land a shine...

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

lol Why bother doing that much shines when you can just jc grab out of shine or just simply grab your opponent. If you're shlasering consistently on the match try grabs when approaching more often than aerials and see what happens. If you can't combo out of grabs effectively watch lambchops, shiz or forward (that's better than me giving you advice on grab comboing; but, I have to say that I'm pretty good at it)

Wait....you can JC grab out of a Shield?


News to me >_>.

 

[Oskurito]

Wait....you can JC grab out of a Shield?


News to me >_>.

I said jc grab out of the shine. Well, actually, you can jc grab out of the shield too but is much easier to just press A or Z while shielding if you want to grab someone

 

[GI Josh]

CAN you break a sheild with a shine? Doesn't it get so small that you end up hitting the character in it?

 

[xJin678]

CAN you break a sheild with a shine? Doesn't it get so small that you end up hitting the character in it?

It's possible if the person you're JC shining is next to a wall / edge so his shield doesn't move. If not, the shines just pushes the opponent's shield away. Look at the video I posted in my previous post.