How is Yoshi's performance in the elements of Brawl?

[DRaGZ]

Okay first off, please read this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199108

Second of all, the reason I am posting this here is because I don't have set-out summaries of Yoshi's performance in the elements of Brawl. So, I was wondering if you guys could do it, considering how you guys are the authorities on your own character.

Use this thread to discuss it, and then please post your results in the "Element of Brawl" thread linked above, using this format:

ZONING

• On the ground
• In the air
• Off-stage

SPACING

• Extreme long distance
• Long distance
• Medium distance
• Short distance

KILLING

• Killing power
• Gimping potential

Thanks a bunch.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

In my opinion (so nobody shoot meh)

Zoning


Air game - Above average, his air game isn't poor, it isn't bad, depending on what the average is, it could be average. He lacks multiple jumps but with good air speed, potent air attacks and the Egg toss to keep him afloat and hit ranged enemies, Yoshi has a decent arsenal of air moves.


Ground - Average/below average, eh his weakest aspect this could improve with stuff like DR play but that hasn't reached it's full potential and so it's hard to judge, utilizing DR well yoshi can space opponents very well, and certain moves alter his hurtbox, his shield game is terrible however leaving him to try and spotdodge instead, of course this doesn't always work and he will be forced to shield, this could screw him up, so his ground game suffers from this.

Off stage - Above average? (Heh whats the average...), Yoshi can spend some time in the air, he can jump off the stage hit with an N-air, DJ hit with a second N-air and then Egg toss his way back, if your good you can head towards the edge while facing backwards and tossing the egg at the opponent to further this. Yoshi can be somewhat floaty, and he moves through the air horizontally very quickly, When Yoshi mains say he isn't easily gimped they're not lying, if you don't execute a Gimp to perfection, he can likely escape, and it's hard to do that as he has enough mobility to just swerve around you.
He still has some issues though that keep him from being amazing, mostly it's stuff like Ledges, FD's ledge is complete murder, Lylat is no better, this goes for a lot of people but, there are people who can get around those significantly better than Yoshi and so I don't think he should be in there ranking.

Spacing

Extreme long distance - Bearable, he can hold out there with eggs, but he doesn't want too, he wants his opponent close as the eggs are nothing more than a minor convenience at this distance.

Long distance - comfortable, he's at a range where he can dodge things easily without resulting to shielding, his eggs work decently here, and due to his speed if he needs to close in quickly he can.
With his aerial speed regardless of ground or air he can close in or evade.
I wish there was something inbetween bearable and comfortable though....thats where yoshi would be

Medium distance - bearable, dtilt,b-air and ftilt have good range and all are relatively fast, dtilt and ftilt are really whats likely to work however, egg toss works but due to being so close people could sneak through, slow characters can be pushed out and managed, but as not everyone is slow he's not comfortable all the time here..

short distance - comfortable, jabs are quick and his grabs can lead into CG's on certain characters, eggs are pretty much useless here unless they are above you, through dtilt,jab and ftilt yoshi can pretty much get anyone out of his face if he needs to, with utilt yoshi can put them right above him yet not high enough that they're out of his control. back-air and N-air work really well here, especially the N-air which is easy to get your sex kick off at this range.
Egg lay can be used, just with a decent amount of risk, but it's an option, Yoshi has options here, and he would rather be here than mid range against certain characters like Marth and Link.

Killing

Killing potential: Average, Fsmash,Usmash, U-air and F-air can all kill and N-air kills at higher percentages bt really... theres some issues here, for 1 Usmash and F-smash can be pretty insane to get in, U-air is likely the safest 1 here most of the time if you can get it off. N-air is far better for gimping and using it as a killing move means you had to raise their percentage far more then you wanted too... His smashes can hit hard, but they dont hit Hard.

Gimping potential : above average, N-air can easily stop people from coming back, Back air with it's multiple hitboxes and decent range can also deny people but it works best around 115%+ while N-air can be used well at 40%. D-air can screw up some people's recovery, and it can lead into a footstool as well making it very annoying for certain characters when yoshi drags them down and then FSJ's them and they can't recover.
An F-air hit can spell disaster as well whether sweet spotted or not. Egg's also are ranged and can thus prevent people from coming back without Yoshi even leaving the edge.
He can cover a greater range to gimp characters than the norm, but due to recovery, he can only go so far, he's too good to be average, but not enough to be amazing, by not enough I mean he's not Metaknight, if you don't need to be Metaknight to be amazing then Yoshi should be in that slot too then.

 

[Mmac]

Here's my take on it

ZONING

• On the ground - Average: It's just not his best attribute. He's got some decent ground moves that work well on the offencive such as Ftilt, Dtilt, and Sliding Usmash, but generally his Ground moves are used for defencive use, as they work much better and can Pivot Grab, his primary attack. Prehaps if more people can learn how to DR Regularly and use it well, it could move to the Above Average or even Amazing
  
• In the air - Above Average: Yoshi does very well in this department, but is still outclassed by some people. Bair is just plain smexy, and Uair is his primary killer which can also beat out almost downward aerial there is. Nair works well overall, Dair works as a decent easy to hit with edgeguard, and Fair can be devastating if hit
  
• Off-stage - Amazing: I actually didn't think of this, but after looking at the criteria, this can be nothing but amazing. He's got good tools for edgeguarding with his Dair, Bair, Nair, and UpB. His recovery is severly underrated by almost everyone. Yes, there is a possibility that he will get hit out of it, but with good judgement and spacing with the Airdodge, this should be only a rarity. Finally his Ledge game is great as he can lob Egg's over the ledge while remaining in safety.

SPACING

• Extreme long distance - Comfortable: Yoshi's Eggs is a Long Range projectile. He can easily hold himself in this position against anyone except someone like Falco. Plus his good Movement speed on the ground and in the air can easily close in the gap
  
• Long distance - Bearable: The worst position he could be in. He can't really do anything except move to a closer distance or retreat. His Egg's become too close for them to be effective, and possibly be punished for it, unless they are in the air of that time
  
• Medium distance - Comfortable: He's got alot of moves which have long reach, and his Grab game gets alot of use in this distance.
  
• Short distance - Comfortable: Noting much different, but he can now use some of his better moves such as his Jab and Rising hit DownB. his Grab's become more risky in this distance though

KILLING

• Killing power - Average: Yoshi is simply not a Killing character. He can kill at decent percents at around the 130's, but some of his Kill moves are just hard to hit with. Lucky, his Uair, which is his best kill move, is actually pretty easy to hit with for most people, and he has Grab Release Setups on some characters.
  
• Gimping potential - Above Average: Like I said, he's got alot of tools for edgeguarding. Nair and Bair are great for knocking them back. Dair works very good as it can "Lock" in low percents, and can combo into an Nair. It also destroys people with terrible Vertical Recovers, or Bad recoveries in general. Fair is a spike, but can be hard to land with. However it can pretty much kill most people when it connects. Finally Eggs are a great Edgeguarding tool, and can destroy people with bad or stiff recoveries.

 

[Sharky]

I'd put grab releases under gimping, IMO Mmac.

Other than that I'd agree with your analysis. =)

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I disagree with Extreme, there are people who can outperform him there, and in the instance there isn't tossing an egg at that distance is so easily prevented it does nothing. It can make them want to approach but Yoshi isn't comfortable because there are people who can outperform him greatly there.
Falco,fox,Link,Toon Link, R.O.B, DDD (because Gordo will eventually pop up), Snake, Zelda, Pit.
If Yoshi goes up against them from Extreme long distance it's a nuisance, DDD is alright for awhile but Gordo eventually shows up and pisses you off. Am I missing someone? Hmm Pikachu maybe.

It's not that it's a bad spot, but it's like he's just there....

In Long range he's just there too, but because of the closer distance to the opponent eggs are more effective and you can close in the distance in a flash,

Thats just my opinion >.>

 

[Sharky]

In Long range he's just there too, but because of the closer distance to the opponent eggs are more effective and you can close in the distance in a flash,

trouble is so can the opponent. While you're throwing the egg. Not good.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

trouble is so can the opponent. While you're throwing the egg. Not good.

Yoshi's eggs can be used for a miniature blockade, which helps with this, you could Lob them without aiming directly for them and instead aiming to prevent them from just running into you.
At extreme Long range you can Lob eggs as long as you want, but against anyone with a head on their shoulder that is nothing, doesn't force anything really, and hell the eggs don't even fully cover Final destination.

Long Range is what 3/4ths or 1/2 of FD away, thats more that enough reaction time and if your spacing is properly the only one who could possibly get through is Captain Falcon and Sonic, and Falcon is iffy.
Your in a good position here from my standpoint because you can function to a certain level of success and at the same time you can transition to any of the other positions without hassle at this position. If the opponent rushes in to you, your ready, if you need to go into Long distance? Your ready, if they are throwing projectiles at you? You have enough time to react before you get hit and you can get there quickly before they can switch it up, where as in Extreme if you start trying to break through Projectile spam, it's far easier to react and so they can switch it up.

 

[SOVAman]

I don't have time right now to make one but I might

 

[Mmac]

but Yoshi isn't comfortable because there are people who can outperform him greatly there.
Falco,fox,Link,Toon Link, R.O.B, DDD (because Gordo will eventually pop up), Snake, Zelda, Pit.

Falco, Yes
Fox, Kinda. SH Egg's stop that problem
Link, Yes
Toon Link, no. His Projectiles are too freaken slow from that distance.
R.O.B. Yes
Dedede, No. Gordo is only a 1/10 chance, and even that is pretty easy to dodge from that distance.
Snake, No. Egg's are an excellent anti-grenade
Zelda, No. Egg's can interrupt Din's Fire. Plus you can shield it with Nair
Pit, Yes

So really, only 4 and a Half characters he has problems with extreme long range. I'm pretty sure I'm comfortable in that distance unless its against those 4 characters

 

[Deleted member]

Falco, Yes
Fox, Yes
Link, Yes
Toon Link, Yes
R.O.B. Yes
Dedede, No. Gordo is only a 1/10 chance, and even that is pretty easy to dodge from that distance.
Snake, Yes if they time it at different intervals than youre egging. so sorta
Zelda, No. Egg's can interrupt Din's Fire. Plus you can shield it with Nair
Pit, Yes

So really, only 6 and a Half characters he has problems with extreme long range. I'm pretty sure I'm comfortable in that distance unless its against those 4 characters

my fixes above.

 

[Mmac]

my fixes above.

How is Toon Link yes? His arrows move like a **** snail! Even fully charged is pretty slow. Snake is still a no, as the barrage can prevent him from throwing Grenades effectively.

Fox's Blaster is just a mild inconvenience. Plus just Jumping out of the way can prevent getting hit much.

 

[Deleted member]

Foxes blaster forces you to approach, if u throw an egg you take 5 damage and he blocks it. Thats all, you still have to approach. I underestimated it until recently.

 

[bigman40]

I'll write something later....too tired

 

[bigman40]

DP to write my analysis. Note: I am not including the DR cause I have not fully mastered this technique to give fair analysis.

ZONING


ground - He's fairly decent on ground. Tilts start juggles, standard A combo is a GTFO move, and a way to keep pressure. Generally, this part is used for defense, and small time pressuring. Rating - Average

air - Has a great set of aerials. Each one depending on the situation (all fairly flexible when you get used to using them right). Bair, Nair, and Dair are main approaches, and they vary the amount of pressure too. Uair and Fair set for killing moves. Also, best for medium amount of pressuring. Rating - Above Average

Off-stage - Meh, I'm not that strong in this part, but it's fairly stable in his game. Eggs are either meant to force you to a certain path, or just interrupt you altogether. He can at least fight off-stage with about 2-4 aerials before needing to get back onto the stage.
His recovery has gotten much better due to the fastest aerial speed, and from no DJC. Most of the time, the Yoshi player can recover w/o too much trouble. Even if he gets interference, DJAD goes right past them, or Egg toss to sweetspot the ledge. Any big mistakes that will get a Yoshi killed while recovering is mainly by fault of the player himself. Rating - Above-Average

SPACING


Extreme long distance - Meh, his projectile isn't something too sufficient at this range (easily blocked). It's still decent cause you can stay out of certain spamming characters (D3, Wolf, etc.), or against non-spam-able characters. Other than spamming, Yoshi will find himself having to get closer to force something to happen. Rating - Bearable

Long distance - Here, Yoshi can make you approach him, or close the gap in to punish some lag that characters have. IMO, it's his best spot to be in because of his flexibility. Eggs are spam-able still, and approaching is much more knowledgeable. Rating - Comfortable

Medium distance - Yoshi shines pretty well here too. Thing about being here is that he loses the ability to spam eggs, but in return, he can actually make use of his ground game to counter attack. Any quick person (reaction time) can make this spot look like the best place a Yoshi should be at (or at long distance range). Rating - Comfortable

Short distance - Half and half here. Most of the time, you'll find yourself attacking, then spot dodging to keep from getting hit. the best options that were for the other distances aren't as viable here, simply because they're not fast enough. Tilts, Bair, Nair, Dsmash, and standard A combo are most used here. When having someone on the defensive, having the ground game's small time pressure and the air game's medium time pressure gives a good amount of heavy pressuring that'll make a character scrambling to get Yoshi off. Rating - Comfotable


KILLING


Killing power - Needs more power (this is a freaking dinosaur we're talking about!). Having about 4 reliable killing moves isn't something to really be happy about. 2 of your killing moves is used for combos half the time, and another one needs enough time to get in without the opponent being able to Perfect Shield it. The CG -> Release is useful, I'll admit, but it's not enough to make the problem go away. Rating - Below Average

Gimping potential - I can say that without forcing things, this will get harder than expected to be. All his aerials, except for Fair, and Egg Toss are fairly good at intercepting an opponent while he's trying to recover (Uair not included). Mix this in with aerial speed, and you have some good potential to gimp opponents. Rating - Average

These are just my thoughts on how Yoshi is currently. I still won't include DR until I can get close to mastering it.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

His gimping is above average and you know it!

 

[bigman40]

His gimping is above average and you know it!

Idk. It's just as like his gimping is meh since I haven't went aggressive. My opinion is due to change though when I see accurate gimping, but right now, it feels average (I'm a harsh rater anyways...)

 

[Mmac]

The only one I disagree with is that the off stage section also includes his Recovery and his Ledge Game. You only listed his gimping potential.

 

[bigman40]

The only one I disagree with is that the off stage section also includes his Recovery and his Ledge Game. You only listed his gimping potential.

Ah, didn't see that specification in Dragz post. I'll change it after class.

 

[DRaGZ]

And I think gimping potential should be kept somewhat separate. "Off-stage" is just an overall measure of how well he does in that area, which can include gimping but is more a measure of how comfortable and effective he is there.

 

[bigman40]

K, updated my post earlier. If we have a general consensus using my post, then someone can post it on his thread.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

T_T what was wrong with mine *runs out of smashboards crying.*

*doesnt look where he is going and runs into Ganondorf*
*Crushed with 1 finger*

 

[bigman40]

Nothing is wrong with your analysis. I just randomly threw up that option lol.

 

[DRaGZ]

Hellooooo gentlemen.

First thing's first, I have decided to use bigman40's analysis on this matter by wayof mmac. It's basically as orderly as I've ever seen an analysis so this is relatively easy for me to integrate.

DP to write my analysis. Note: I am not including the DR cause I have not fully mastered this technique to give fair analysis.

ZONING


ground - He's fairly decent on ground. Tilts start juggles, standard A combo is a GTFO move, and a way to keep pressure. Generally, this part is used for defense, and small time pressuring. Rating - Average

air - Has a great set of aerials. Each one depending on the situation (all fairly flexible when you get used to using them right). Bair, Nair, and Dair are main approaches, and they vary the amount of pressure too. Uair and Fair set for killing moves. Also, best for medium amount of pressuring. Rating - Above Average

Off-stage - Meh, I'm not that strong in this part, but it's fairly stable in his game. Eggs are either meant to force you to a certain path, or just interrupt you altogether. He can at least fight off-stage with about 2-4 aerials before needing to get back onto the stage.
His recovery has gotten much better due to the fastest aerial speed, and from no DJC. Most of the time, the Yoshi player can recover w/o too much trouble. Even if he gets interference, DJAD goes right past them, or Egg toss to sweetspot the ledge. Any big mistakes that will get a Yoshi killed while recovering is mainly by fault of the player himself. Rating - Above-Average

SPACING


Extreme long distance - Meh, his projectile isn't something too sufficient at this range (easily blocked). It's still decent cause you can stay out of certain spamming characters (D3, Wolf, etc.), or against non-spam-able characters. Other than spamming, Yoshi will find himself having to get closer to force something to happen. Rating - Bearable

Long distance - Here, Yoshi can make you approach him, or close the gap in to punish some lag that characters have. IMO, it's his best spot to be in because of his flexibility. Eggs are spam-able still, and approaching is much more knowledgeable. Rating - Comfortable

Medium distance - Yoshi shines pretty well here too. Thing about being here is that he loses the ability to spam eggs, but in return, he can actually make use of his ground game to counter attack. Any quick person (reaction time) can make this spot look like the best place a Yoshi should be at (or at long distance range). Rating - Comfortable

Short distance - Half and half here. Most of the time, you'll find yourself attacking, then spot dodging to keep from getting hit. the best options that were for the other distances aren't as viable here, simply because they're not fast enough. Tilts, Bair, Nair, Dsmash, and standard A combo are most used here. When having someone on the defensive, having the ground game's small time pressure and the air game's medium time pressure gives a good amount of heavy pressuring that'll make a character scrambling to get Yoshi off. Rating - Comfotable


KILLING


Killing power - Needs more power (this is a freaking dinosaur we're talking about!). Having about 4 reliable killing moves isn't something to really be happy about. 2 of your killing moves is used for combos half the time, and another one needs enough time to get in without the opponent being able to Perfect Shield it. The CG -> Release is useful, I'll admit, but it's not enough to make the problem go away. Rating - Below Average

Gimping potential - I can say that without forcing things, this will get harder than expected to be. All his aerials, except for Fair, and Egg Toss are fairly good at intercepting an opponent while he's trying to recover (Uair not included). Mix this in with aerial speed, and you have some good potential to gimp opponents. Rating - Average

These are just my thoughts on how Yoshi is currently. I still won't include DR until I can get close to mastering it.

One thing I do wonder is at "Short Distance" rated as "Comfortable". From what I can gather from the analysis, he's mostly defensive here, i.e. trying to get the opponent off of his back. If that is true, I would rate that as "Bearable" because Yoshi has options here but they're all geared towards getting to a better distance (see R.O.B. as an example). If I am right/wrong, please inform me, because otherwise I am putting it up as it is.

Also, second of all, I've added a "Survivability" section in the original thread. Now, mmac has already addressed the problems I made with Yoshi and now I have amended them. So this is what it currently looks like now:

Yoshi

• Recovery: Yoshi's primary method of recovery is the Double Jump + Airdodge. Because his momentum isn't canceled in this game with such a maneuver, a Yoshi can basically safely return to land as long as he has such a jump. He can also use his third jump to give him an extra boost when need or an extra egg to keep the opponent away. Its only weakness is that if Yoshi was thrown off-stage with his second jump missing, he is screwed. Rating: Easy
• Staying Power: Yoshi's fairly heavy and his spacing/keep-away options are fairly good. His only problem here is when he messes up an approach since it can lead to heavy punishment. Rating: Intermediate

If you add up the scores here, you get 32. Not to offend anyone here, but I think that's a little high, considering Mr. Game and Watch is also 32, and I don't think you can make a case for saying Yoshi is nearly as good as Mr. Game and Watch. Maybe you guys need to re-evaluate some stuff? I mean, just from reading the analysis, I feel as though you're embellishing the spacing somewhat. "close the gap in to punish some lag that characters have", meaning it's not usable on everyone (remind you, this is half the distance of FD), and it still had a comfortable (technically, any character with any decent reach or speed can punish from here against laggy characters). "Half and Half" for short distance, yet it is still comfortable (half and half would imply that he has options and limitations at the same time, don't you think).

I'm not bagging on the analysis or anything, but I definitely feel it's exaggerated. And again, I could be wrong. But it troubles me when the analysis seems to suggest one thing but then goes another way.

In the meantime, I will stick with this analysis, considering this is one of the more thorough ones on the boards.

 

[Mmac]

One thing I do wonder is at "Short Distance" rated as "Comfortable". From what I can gather from the analysis, he's mostly defensive here, i.e. trying to get the opponent off of his back. If that is true, I would rate that as "Bearable" because Yoshi has options here but they're all geared towards getting to a better distance (see R.O.B. as an example). If I am right/wrong, please inform me, because otherwise I am putting it up as it is.

He does good at CQC though. Jab works very well due to it's quick speed and surprisingly high priority, and his Initial Hit on his DownB is practically lagless, and his hardest hitting kill move. It can also be comboed from Jab, just like Luigi's Shuroken. Everything that can work from Mid Range can work here too.

He's a defencive character, That doesn't mean he lacks in offencive capabilities though

If you add up the scores here, you get 32. Not to offend anyone here, but I think that's a little high, considering Mr. Game and Watch is also 32, and I don't think you can make a case for saying Yoshi is nearly as good as Mr. Game and Watch. Maybe you guys need to re-evaluate some stuff?

Eh, we answered everything truthfully and logically, with plenty of discussion, and continues to look that way in my eyes. It's either one of 3 things...

1)

Yoshi IS Really that good
2)

G&W is underestimating their character
3)

Were actually biased to hell, and don't realize it!

I dunno, but if Yoshi = Game & Watch, then so be it...

I really got to sleep now

 

[ChronoPenguin]

4) The point system is poorly done, not enough options to give a accurate basis.

 

[DRaGZ]

What would you change?

 

[Sharky]

make it more than just 1-3.

 

[Browny]

I'm not bagging on the analysis or anything, but I definitely feel it's exaggerated. And again, I could be wrong. But it troubles me when the analysis seems to suggest one thing but then goes another way.

Dragz i think you really need to explain in detail the difference between Zoning and Spacing. This yoshi one isnt too different from every other characters, where in the zoning part people list sets of attacks which actually have nothing to do with zoning at all. And I think you should explicitly state the spacing must be compared to the whole cast. Using this one for example its not so much that the ratings are overrated, its just that it seems they are compared to the worst in each category. Yoshi mains think of this, If Yoshi is rated highly in areas such as long distance, medium distance and off stage, that would imply the majority of the cast is inferior to him at these aspects. If you can think of at least 10 characters who out-perform him in any aspect you might wanna consider an average (berable) rating.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

What would you change?

Honestly, bring it up to 5/6 points.

Say for Zoning.

Terrible, Poor, Mediocre, respectable, great, Amazing

or
Poor, Mediocre, good, amazing, WTFHAX.

That way us Yoshi's can take Amazing and not jump into WTFHAX =P


I especially dislike the Comfortable,bearable uncomfortable thing...it is narrow.

Yoshi squeezes in between Comfortable and bearable at certain points, but since theres nothing in between that...Yoshi mains tend to "round up". Theres also got to be something under uncomfortable, because theres situations where you don't just feel "I don't like this, let me get out" theres situations where you go "Get out, now"

 

[DRaGZ]

The reason I made it five ratings for Zoning and Killing was because a character's efficiency in these areas are more dependent on how well your character does there and thus there is much more variability amongst the entire cast. At the same time, these are elements which cannot really change; you can't just change how effective a character is somewhere, and you can't switch zones or switch up your method for killing easily.

On the other hand, Spacing itself can change very fluidly over the course of a match, meaning how well a character does in one zone is dependent more on how well a player uses it, thus I de-emphasized it. This goes the same for Surviving, since how well a character survives, while based on the character's given characteristics, are mainly dependent on how well the character uses them.

In any case, it's a bit too late to change it, unless I should very well go through every forum again and ask for another evaluation, which isn't going to happen since it's a massive hassle.

 

[Mmac]

Even if the 3 point system was changed into a 5 point system, I still say his Recovery is top notch!

 

[Sharky]

In any case, it's a bit too late to change it, unless I should very well go through every forum again and ask for another evaluation, which isn't going to happen since it's a massive hassle.

Then you're just gonna be stuck with crazily wrong character evaluations. Suit yourself.

and I think I'd rate Yoshi's recovery a 4/5, simply because there's chars like R.O.B. that can get back from anywhere on any stage, and can go under freaking Corneria lol.

 

[DRaGZ]

The greatness of a recovery reaches a point where it's no longer really necessary for it to be that amazing.

I.e. R.O.B. can travel under the stage, okay, it's useful every once in a while, but it's nothing that truly affects how much more effective he is. Same thing for Pit (actually going under for Pit would be suicide against some characters).

So, once your recovery reaches a certain point of great recovery, then it really doesn't have to be that much better to be that useful. Some recoveries like Meta Knight and R.O.B. are so over the top to the point that they don't even need to use a lot of their recovery options in entire sets.

Listen, I thought these point systems out carefully. Certain things are simply worth way more than others.

 

[viparagon]

Here's my take on it

ZONING

• On the ground - Average: It's just not his best attribute. He's got some decent ground moves that work well on the offencive such as Ftilt, Dtilt, and Sliding Usmash, but generally his Ground moves are used for defencive use, as they work much better and can Pivot Grab, his primary attack. Prehaps if more people can learn how to DR Regularly and use it well, it could move to the Above Average or even Amazing
  
• In the air - Above Average: Yoshi does very well in this department, but is still outclassed by some people. Bair is just plain smexy, and Uair is his primary killer which can also beat out almost downward aerial there is. Nair works well overall, Dair works as a decent easy to hit with edgeguard, and Fair can be devastating if hit
  
• Off-stage - Amazing: I actually didn't think of this, but after looking at the criteria, this can be nothing but amazing. He's got good tools for edgeguarding with his Dair, Bair, Nair, and UpB. His recovery is severly underrated by almost everyone. Yes, there is a possibility that he will get hit out of it, but with good judgement and spacing with the Airdodge, this should be only a rarity. Finally his Ledge game is great as he can lob Egg's over the ledge while remaining in safety.

SPACING

• Extreme long distance - Comfortable: Yoshi's Eggs is a Long Range projectile. He can easily hold himself in this position against anyone except someone like Falco. Plus his good Movement speed on the ground and in the air can easily close in the gap
  
• Long distance - Bearable: The worst position he could be in. He can't really do anything except move to a closer distance or retreat. His Egg's become too close for them to be effective, and possibly be punished for it, unless they are in the air of that time
  
• Medium distance - Comfortable: He's got alot of moves which have long reach, and his Grab game gets alot of use in this distance.
  
• Short distance - Comfortable: Noting much different, but he can now use some of his better moves such as his Jab and Rising hit DownB. his Grab's become more risky in this distance though

KILLING

• Killing power - Average: Yoshi is simply not a Killing character. He can kill at decent percents at around the 130's, but some of his Kill moves are just hard to hit with. Lucky, his Uair, which is his best kill move, is actually pretty easy to hit with for most people, and he has Grab Release Setups on some characters.
  
• Gimping potential - Above Average: Like I said, he's got alot of tools for edgeguarding. Nair and Bair are great for knocking them back. Dair works very good as it can "Lock" in low percents, and can combo into an Nair. It also destroys people with terrible Vertical Recovers, or Bad recoveries in general. Fair is a spike, but can be hard to land with. However it can pretty much kill most people when it connects. Finally Eggs are a great Edgeguarding tool, and can destroy people with bad or stiff recoveries.

So yoshi's high tier?

 

[DRaGZ]

I have some suggestions, just going off of Mmac's analysis.

Bearable at short distance. Most of the options you are claiming here simply aren't good enough to actually consider Yoshi to be at an advantage here. Able to take it and dish it out, yes, but but not outright be at an advantage. Even R.O.B. is just "bearable" here, and he has the best down-smash in the game.

Uncomfortable for long distance. You didn't state a single thing that makes me believe Yoshi can potentially survive easily here, and your own analysis seems to corroborate this. I think this somewhat analgous to R.O.B.: he c an technically do things here, but if he chooses to stay here he is going to get it in the butt.

Gimping potential as Average. You state that he's got a lot of tools for edgeguardng, but you mainly state that it destroys people with terrible recoveries. If a character has a terrible recovery, then nearly any character that's at least usable off-stage can edgeguard (even Ganondorf could). And again, this is using criteria you pose in your own analysis.

Off-stage, I would put as Above Average. Does Yoshi actually gain an advantage by throwing himself off-stage? Characters like R.O.B., DeDeDe, and MK sure do. Yoshi, I don't know. But I certainly recognize that Yoshi can do badass things while off-stage.



Note, the fact that Mmac's analysis is so different from bigman's, especially at distances, and the fact that I was able to find such discrepancies makes me suggest that this hasn't been properly discussed yet.

Overall, this is what I think Yoshi's analysis should be simply from what I have seen in this discussion:

On the ground, average.
In the air, above average.
Off-stage, above average.

Extreme long distance: Comfortable.
Long distance: Uncomfortable.
Medium distance: Comfortable.
Short distance: Bearable.

Killing power: Below average.
Gimping: Average.

Recovery; Easy
Staying power: Intermediate.

This gives him a score of 30. I think that is very reasonable and unbiased score.

EDIT: Btw, I'm not going to update to this score on the original thread until you guys give me the okay.

 

[DRaGZ]

Well, since I am not getting a response, that is the score I will put up until further notice.

 

[Mmac]

How is Long Distance uncomfortable?

 

[DRaGZ]

How is Long Distance uncomfortable?

Eggs won't be fast enough for an opponent to not respond + Yoshi needs to approach more for better options, i.e. he doesn't really want to be here and puts himself at a disadvantage by being here.

EDIT: Note, this is from what I gathered in this thread, mostly separate from my knowledge of Yoshi as a match-up, just that I gave them their ratings based on what those ratings actually mean.

 

[Sharky]

against some opponents, yes. For the most part, though, Yoshi can force an approach out of the opponent with eggs. With ETS, he can turn that approach to his advantage.