How is Pokemon Trainer's performance in the elements of Brawl?

[DRaGZ]

Okay first off, please read this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199108

Second of all, the reason I am posting this here is because I don't have set-out summaries of Pokemon Trainer's performance in the elements of Brawl. So, I was wondering if you guys could do it, considering how you guys are the authorities on your own character.

And, since Pokemon Trainer is all special and split up into three different Pokemon, I was hoping you could split them up for me as well, i.e. one for Squirtle, one for Ivysaur, and one for Charizard.

Use this thread to discuss it, and then please post your results in the "Element of Brawl" thread linked above, using this format:

ZONING

• On the ground
• In the air
• Off-stage

SPACING

• Extreme long distance
• Long distance
• Medium distance
• Short distance

KILLING

• Killing power
• Gimping potential

Mucho gusto.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Are you sure you don't want this divided into three characters? They're sepperate in function but united as a character.

 

[Demenise]

-agrees with RetroGaming-

We can't give you the full character. Divide it into Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard then get back to us.

 

[DRaGZ]

Divided it is. But, would it be okay if you did it all in one topic?

I was making these topics rather quickly, so...yeah...

 

[Retro Gaming]

These are my opinions with little description based on how other characters placed in the current thread. This is just to get some discussion started. What I hope happens is that people debate portions of mine and their reasoning is added as the descriptive text for each. We can add the ones that are pretty unanimous last.

Ivysaur

ZONING

• On the ground: Average
• In the air: Below Average
• Off-stage: Terrible

SPACING

• Extreme long distance: Bearable
• Long distance: Comfortable
• Medium distance: Comfortable
• Short distance: Uncomfortable

KILLING

• Killing power: Below Average
• Gimping potential: Terrible

Charizard

ZONING

• On the ground: Average
• In the air: Average
• Off-stage: Above Average

SPACING

• Extreme long distance: Uncomfortable
• Long distance: Bearable
• Medium distance: Comfortable
• Short distance: Comfortable

KILLING

• Killing power: Above Average
• Gimping potential: Above Average

Squirtle

ZONING

• On the ground: Below Average
• In the air: Above Average
• Off-stage: Average

SPACING

• Extreme long distance: Bearable
• Long distance: Bearable
• Medium distance: Bearable
• Short distance: Bearable (Needs to be careful to avoid shield grabbing, still?)

KILLING

• Killing power: Below Average
• Gimping potential: Average

 

[Steeler]

My 3 cents

Squirtle

ZONING
On the ground
Above average. Very quick, good pressure, can space out of grab range well with his aerial DI, shellshifting adds a huge level of depth to his ground game. Grab range the size of 1/3 of FD and the ability to 'super wavedash' any of his smashes from over half FD's distance? Yes. Very nice. Capable of punishing a lot of things. Only thing is a lack of considerable range, although mobility can get around that obstacle.

In the air
Above average. Honestly, Squirtle is one of the best characters in the air. His only problem is the lack of range on some attacks. Attacks are instantaneous, little to no landing lag, great priority. His dair cancels out Meta Knight's glide attack...and continues on to hit MK, when positioned properly. The tail seems to have the most priority.

Off-stage
Above average when defending, average when returning. Good aerial game and Water Gun lend Squirtle to being a good gimper. When returning, Squirtle is just like most other characters. One jump, average recovery move. Withdraw is an option above the stage. The only thing is never using that second jump before a Withdraw, so that if you are hit, you still have a second jump and Waterfall. Average overall.

SPACING
Extreme long distance
Squirtle is really hard to hit since he's so small and cute. And can crouch. Good mobility both in the air and on the ground so he doesn't have to stay here too long. I think Squirtle is comfortable here, but doesn't really want to stay here since he has to be close to do anything. I'd say bearable.

Long distance
Squirtle doesn't mind being here. Shellshifting allow Squirtle to quickly get closer and pressure the opponent. Good aerial mobility to get closer. Again, projectiles aren't a huge hassle for Squirtle. Bearable.

Medium distance
Squirtle likes it here. Shellshifting is much more effective. Short hop to whatever is also usable with good DI. Squirtle can pick his spots and be choosy about when he does, because shellshifting and aerial DI lend themselves to good spacing. Comfortable.

Short distance
Squirtle likes it here. He can follow up on openings and attack quickly and swiftly. But he has to be very wary of shieldgrabbers...Bearable.

KILLING
Killing power
Above average. Shellshifting makes all three Smashes mobile and the ability to charge as you slide lets Squirtle kill earlier than normally possible. However, this can become predictable and the effectiveness will wear off a bit. It's always a threat, which means that the opponent can never be too comfortable. The less the Squirtle Shifts Smashes, the more effective it is as a killing option. The best reason Squirtle is above average here is because of that down throw. One of the best kill throws in the game, definitely. And it's easy to take advantage of because of shellshifting.

Gimping potential
Average. Dair has a strong semi-spike trajectory and is his main gimp tool. Fair is a strong aerial when fresh, but not strong enough to gimp at ridiculous sub-80% range. Water Gun is a very useful and funny tool to use. Even if it can't outright gimp some characters, it can put them in a bad position where they will have to respond in a certain, predictable way. Sometimes the threat of Water Gun is enough to force characters into recovering from below, in which case a Dair can stage spike or timely edge hug can gimp.

I might do Ivyzard later. I think we should definitely participate in Dragz's multi board spam topic (lulz) because I think this will become a big way to compare how characters perform.

 

[Retro Gaming]

King Dedede has "above average" zoning on the ground. I don't think Squirtle ties. Average, possible. It's either average or below average.

In the air - Agree.

Off-stage - Overall I say average. Limited recovery limits his recovery (...) as well as his ability to chase for an edge-guard. Plays fine on the ledge, but nothing near Mr. Game and Watch.

I concede with medium distance comfortable.

Killing power - I'm pretty adamant about. The shifted stuff is useful, but your description says "the less you use it the more effective it is." Squirtle's picking to either get kills or to maintain the ability to get kills. That really says it all, in my opinion. They are not "go-to" kill attacks. Those are Uair, Dthrow, and Fair, as well as gimps. The shifted options are "secondary" options, in my opinion.

Gimping potential - Agreed.

 

[Steeler]

Shellshifting really gives Squirtle an awesome option on the ground, where it's either have a good spacing move or have good mobility to let you weave in and out of the opponent's range easily. Average at worst. Definitely not below average.

I summarized off stage into average in the last sentence, so I agree.

Dthrow is so powerful for how easy it is to land. Squirtle is one of the best in the game at getting a grab in. Dthrow is my main reason for above average, because honestly, I sometimes have a better time killing with Squirtle than I do with Charizard. It's the reason why some PT's switch from Charizard to Squirtle when the opponent is at high percent, because for some, it's easier to kill with Squirtle's Dthrow than with Charizard. But idk. I could concede average killing power if I were in the minority here.

 

[Toby.]

Squirtle would have below average killing power if it wasn't for the shifted dthrow. That thing allows you to slide half of FD, letting you dthrow off the edge. That having been said, it doesn't amount to above average in my mind. This is merely squirtle's saving grace. Average

Zoning on the ground should be average. A lack of long disjointed hitboxes or any sort of projectile makes life hard, despite shellshifting. He definitely isn't on dedede's level.

 

[mr_kennedy44]

I'd bump Ivysaur's killing power up to average. He does have quite a few tools that are capable of killing (F-Smash, U-Smash, F-Air, U-Air). I also think that he has better killing potential than Wolf who got rated as average.

 

[Toby.]

Fsmash, U-smash, and uair are laggy and predictable. They kill wonderfully, but against good players they can be extremely hard to land

Fair is fine ^_^

 

[Charizard92]

Well, by adding up the numbers:

Ivysaur gets 18 (below Ganondorf)
Charizard gets 27 (one below ROB)
And Squirtle gets 23 (same as Wolf)

OF course, Double checking is needed.

 

[mr_kennedy44]

Fsmash, U-smash, and uair are laggy and predictable. They kill wonderfully, but against good players they can be extremely hard to land

Fair is fine ^_^

You're right but it isn't being ranked based off of "ease of hitting". If you look at Ganondorf's killing power summary you will see that he certainly has no problems with kill moves but they are hard to land. He got rated as "above average". Ivy has quite a few kill moves (I also forgot about sweetspotted vine whip) but some are hard to hit with.

 

[Retro Gaming]

ROB's ground zoning is rated "Average," so to be uniform I placed Ivysaur's zoning as Average and Squirtle's as Below Average.

 

[Adriel]

Fsmash, U-smash, and uair are laggy and predictable. They kill wonderfully, but against good players they can be extremely hard to land

Fair is fine ^_^

What if the Ivysaur player is also good? Landing up-air is really not that difficult, just jump towards your opponent, wait for them to airdodge, then up-air afterwards. Of course this does not work on everyone, but most people do airdodge as soon as you approach them with a jump. As for Ivy's F-smash, I can't see what makes his F-smash harder to land than any other character. It starts quickly and has serious range, especially when shutter stepped.

 

[Toby.]

Well...for the record Ivysaur is my best pokemon, for what its worth

That's exactly how I kill with up-air. Generally my better opponents understand the idea of baiting enough to swat ivysaur instead of airdodging. Of course the counter to that is to not wait for an air dodge, so landing the move basically comes down to mind games. If it IS dodged, the end lag is significant enough to put ivysuar in a pretty horrible position. We are just lucky that it sends ivysaur down pretty quickly. Because of these factors I feel that it's not a particularly simple or safe move to land. I was going too far with extremely though

Regarding F-smash, I should have been clearer. It's hard to land fsmash *safely*. Generally with ivysaur I stick to her disjointed hitboxes for obvious reasons. Fsmash puts ivysaur right on the firing line, which means I only attempt to land it when there is little chance of the opponent striking at the same time. Here's the problem though. Fsmash is just a little bit too slow on startup to make for a safe attack. It starts slower than all of Ivysaur's tilts, and has more ending lag. It's very difficult to land the move in a low risk manner. No hitstun is a real drag

When I decide to eschew safety I also get people blocking the move on reflex. Annoying, to say the least.

The fact that Ivysaur has to rely on these few moves also makes the F-smash very predictable. If they are on the ground they know that you have to kill them with either a fair, a throw or f-smash. The fair is telegraphed by the jump, which leaves grabbing and smashing. Once the opponent gets to a percentage where f-smash is viable, the sheer fact that they know we will try and use it is enough to make it very hard to land.

But at the end of the day my experiences might not indicate reality. I don't mind what you guys decide to put on there.

 

[Steeler]

umm i have a ****load of trouble landing kills with ivy too. fair is the most reliable. it's really hard to punish, actually, when you do it right.

 

[Adriel]

Yeah, f-air is safe. F-smash is not that unsafe if you space it correctly, since it sends you back to your starting position like f-tilt. Another way to land up-air is to use it right before you hit the ground. It works pretty well, and is not as unsafe as it seems since it knocks your opponent back if they shield it.

Ivysaur actually does have a lot of kill moves: TACKLE! (dash attack), f-air, up-air, f-smash, up-smash, up-throw, back-throw, vine-whip, down-air near the ledge (although very unsafe). That's almost as much as Zard, it's just that people believe that Ivy's moves can be "telegraphed." It's only telegraphed if you let it be telegraphed. (for example, using only kill moves when your opponent is at high percent). What I do when I want to KO my opponent is spam back-air and razor leaf 'till they get annoyed and/or frustrated, then I use one of Ivy's many kill moves.

 

[Steeler]

both throw attacks can be di'ed to make koing very difficult...as with charizard's throws. squirtle's dthrow seems to be the most effective.

i love tackle, but it only ko's at 150ish%.

i think a big problem with ivysaur is that he's like squirtle in that none of his tilts can kill well, yet is like charizard with laggy, hard to land smashes, one of which hardly does any damage and cannot kill. bad combination. the fact is that fsmash is ivy's ONLY move that can really kill in front of him is a big problem. his throws are not as good at killing as squirtle and charizard, tackle is a decent surprise option. now, i'll give fsmash credit in that it can be surprising thanks to its range and the lack of hitstun in this game: i hit through a marth's dancing blade yesterday at a tournament. but for the most part, it's hard to create openings for it. you have to punish something the opponent is doing.

 

[Toby.]

Ok, well I'm just going to respond to what you said in roughly the order you said it.

You can use up air near the ground, but the end lag hurts. Plus its just begging for them to hit you with anything whilst you get close enough for the hitbox to affect them. I used to do it a lot, but I stopped using it as much against opponents who shield, dodge or attack

Tackle is a good move, but they have a billion years to retaliate if its misses or is blocked.
Upsmash basically requires them to be above you, and not doing anything for a long time. Good players won't be above Ivysaur very often. You can do it next to somebody, but it's hard to land such a slow move when they have plenty of time to shield, grab or attack you.

Ivysuar's throws are good, but nothing amazing. With good DI they can be survived up to a good percentage.

Vine-whip is great.

Down air at the edge IS very unsafe. Ivysaur has many options which are unsafe. I hesitate to classify them as kill moves when its often not worth going for the kill with them. That having been said, this move can be bad or great depending on the opponent, so I'm not necessarily saying that it should never be used.

It's not simply about not letting Ivysaur telegraph her moves. As Steeler and I pointed out, when you can only get the horizontal grounded kill with a single attack, they don't need to think very hard to understand what your intentions will be. I don't just spam fsmash once they are at a killing percentage. The problem is that people quickly come to understand that from a certain point on, everything you do with Ivysaur is attempting to lead into the fsmash.

I can't help but feel that this is an unecessary debate
All we are doing is arguing the difference between average and below average, using personal experience to back up our claims. The people we play are completely different.
Meh.

 

[DRaGZ]

I'm going to be putting you guys, Yoshi, Lucas, and Ness up next because those forums have been particularly responsive.

But before I can do that, I need your guys like...actual orderly assessment of what's going on here, since these are essentially three characters and that's a bit much for me to handle.

And btw, I'm going to represent Pokemon Trainer as three characters under the title of "Pokemon Trainer". So each Pokemon has their own rating, and Pokemon Trainer is just an average of those ratings.

So it's basically going to look like this (what follows is also a rating of "Survivability" I gave Pokemon Trainer, rated from "Easy" to "Intermediate" to "Difficult"):

Pokémon Trainer

• Recovery: Overall Rating: Intermediate
• Staying Power: Overall Rating: Intermediate
• Squirtle
  • Recovery: Squirtle's really light, so he can be killed out-right somewhat easily, but his floatiness makes it very easy for him to jump back to safety. His Waterfall is a relatively safe recovery, but its awkward angle makes him get stuck under ledges sometimes, and it's not unpunishable. Rating: Intermediate
  • Staying Power: Squirtle is very light and his options for keeping an opponent away aren't the greatest. If he's at kill percentage, he's pending for a bending. Rating: Difficult
• Ivysaur
  • Recovery: Ivysaur's recovery is terrible, and quite possible the worst tether-dependent recovery in the game; at least Olimar can potentially gimp his opponent along with him and can manageably fight someone trying to gimp him. Although he has methods to try to get around this, there's no getting around the fact that his tether makes him oh-so-vulnerable as he is recovering. Rating: Difficult
  • Staying Power: Ivysaur actually does quite well at keeping an opponent away. His ability to space with his vines makes it difficult to properly approach for the killing blow. It's not like the opponent can't ever get inside, but they're going to have a bit of a time doing it. Rating: Intermediate
• Charizard
  • Recovery: Charizard is a tough sunuva*****, very heavy, and several safe counter-options while recovering. He has multiple jumps, a glide, and an Up+B that's difficult to punish off-stage. All-in-all, very solid. Rating: Easy
  • Staying Power: Charizard is very heavy and his spacing options, with his f-air and Rock Smash, are very good. He's not dying easily anytime soon. Rating: Easy

Sound good?

And thanks for your spirited discussion, btw.

Btw, this:

These are my opinions with little description based on how other characters placed in the current thread. This is just to get some discussion started. What I hope happens is that people debate portions of mine and their reasoning is added as the descriptive text for each. We can add the ones that are pretty unanimous last.

Ivysaur

ZONING

• On the ground: Average
• In the air: Below Average
• Off-stage: Terrible

SPACING

• Extreme long distance: Bearable
• Long distance: Comfortable
• Medium distance: Comfortable
• Short distance: Uncomfortable

KILLING

• Killing power: Below Average
• Gimping potential: Terrible

Charizard

ZONING

• On the ground: Average
• In the air: Average
• Off-stage: Above Average

SPACING

• Extreme long distance: Uncomfortable
• Long distance: Bearable
• Medium distance: Comfortable
• Short distance: Comfortable

KILLING

• Killing power: Above Average
• Gimping potential: Above Average

Squirtle

ZONING

• On the ground: Below Average
• In the air: Above Average
• Off-stage: Average

SPACING

• Extreme long distance: Bearable
• Long distance: Bearable
• Medium distance: Bearable
• Short distance: Bearable (Needs to be careful to avoid shield grabbing, still?)

KILLING

• Killing power: Below Average
• Gimping potential: Average

...sounds reasonable to me...although I know that the spirit of the post was that it was an assessment you guys can pick apart at first. Did that happen or did it pretty much stay the same?

>_>

 

[Retro Gaming]

Recovery: Ivysaur's recovery is terrible, and quite possible the worst tether-dependent recovery in the game; at least Olimar can potentially gimp his opponent along with him and can manageably fight someone trying to gimp him. Although he has methods to try to get around this, there's no getting around the fact that his tether makes him oh-so-vulnerable as he is recovering. Rating: Difficult

What do you mean? Ivysaur's tether can stage spike as well.

 

[DRaGZ]

Olimar's tether spikes with or without a stage and can stage spike. It's also a lot more powerful.

Ivysaur's hits the opponent into the stage, which doesn't necessarily always work.

But you're right, I never really took the idea of a stage spike into proper account.

And since no one's really replying, I'm gonna use the quoted thing I quoted above as the basis and then use the information laid out in this discussion as the analysis discussion, k?

 

[Onxy]

Ivy can always use a Razor Leaf, or Ivysaur can use a Razor Leaf backwards to turn around and hit with a Bair. That's just to get back on though.

 

[Toby.]

Olimar's tether spikes with or without a stage and can stage spike. It's also a lot more powerful.

Ivysaur's hits the opponent into the stage, which doesn't necessarily always work.

But you're right, I never really took the idea of a stage spike into proper account.

And since no one's really replying, I'm gonna use the quoted thing I quoted above as the basis and then use the information laid out in this discussion as the analysis discussion, k?

Sounds good. I think most of us are out of steam, so the chances of a big final analysis are slim

 

[DRaGZ]

Okay, this was a beast to do, but this is what I came up with based on stuff you guys said as well my own understanding of things (i.e., I referenced back to things you said when I wasn't sure if I was right on something or not). And, keep in mind, this is entirely based on Retro Gaming's outline and Steeler36's analysis on Squirtle.

Ivysaur - 21

ZONING

• On the ground: Ivysaur has good and bad options. He has great range and a cool projectile, but the longest ranges attacks aren't always the strongest. His stronger attacks are particularly strong (his up-smash is the fastest in the game and it's absurdly fast) but they can be easily punished if missed. Rating: Average
• In the air: Ivysaur has some great ranged attacks, but they're nothing special in terms of damage and knockback. His u-air and d-air and extremely powerful, but have a tiny hitbox (you have to basically be inside an opponent to do it properly). The main problem here lies in his overall awkwardness, especially in that the moves don't flow together as well as one would hope. Rating: Below Average
• Off-stage: Ivysaur falls somewhat fast and has a terrible recovery. Bad idea to venture out here. Rating: Terrible

SPACING

• Extreme long distance: It is difficult for Ivysaur to force an approach from here. Rating: Bearable
• Long distance: Razor Leaf is pretty effective at this range and can force an opponent to get closer due to harassment. Rating: Comfortable
• Medium distance: At this range, many of Ivysaur's safest attacks do very well, including his whipping aerials, his grabs, and his jabbing whips. Rating: Comfortable
• Short distance: Unfortunately, once an opponent is this close, a lot of attacks Ivysaur does will either be too slow, thus power-shielded and attacked, or not strong enough to deal enough punishment. Rating: Uncomfortable

KILLING

• Killing power: The primary problem lies in Ivysaur's inability to land his best killing moves. His forward-smash is beastly, but it is highly punishable. His up-smash is absurdly powerful, but Ivysaur must get in very close to hit it, which if where he does the poorest. Rating: Below Average
• Gimping potential: Ivysaur has a wicked spike. However, his poor options off-stage makes it so he cannot easily commit to it, especially since he must get so close to the opponent to make it worthwhile. In other words, he'll probably never be spiking anyone decent. Rating: Terrible

Charizard - 33

ZONING

• On the ground: He is relatively powerful on the ground and he has great range on a lot of his moves. The problem lies in the fact that they are mostly very slow and thus very punishable. Rating: Average
• In the air: Charizard has a lot of safe options in the air, both with his aerials (f-air and n-air being the most remarkable) and his Rock Smash. However, they are slow enough to be telegraphed and, if the opponent is comfortable enough in the air, can be dealt with easily. Rating: Average
• Off-stage: Once off-stage, the speed of Charizard's aerials become a much smaller problem because his mobility compared to other characters helps off-set this. Fair is suddenly extremely dangerous. His Sky Attack suddenly becomes nearly unpunishable. However, there are characters that outclass him here simply because they are faster or more powerful. Rating: Above Average

SPACING

• Extreme long distance: Charizard literally has nothing he can do out here, and he's large enough to be a sitting duck for any projectile. Rating: Uncomfortable
• Long distance: Charizard has more options here. He can begin using his Flamethrower for harassment and he has a much easier time approaching. Rating: Bearable
• Medium distance: Almost everything Charizard can do works here. He has vey good range. Rating: Comfortable
• Short distance: Same as medium distance. Speed isn't a large issue here because the hitboxes come out relatively fast for Charizard. Rating: Comfortable

KILLING

• Killing power: Charizard is very strong, but he has to work a bit to land the killing blow. If his attacks have not diminished, however, as soon as he lands the blow, the opponent is probably dead. Rating: Above Average
• Gimping potential: Charizard's great aerial mobility and edgeguarding game makes this very easy for Charizard. Any aerial works great if the opponent recovers head-on, but an opponent recovering from below make the d-air more difficult to hit than one would hope. Rating: Above Average

Squirtle - 30

ZONING

• On the ground: Very quick, good pressure, can space out of grab range well with his aerial DI, shellshifting adds a huge level of depth to his ground game. Grab range the size of 1/3 of FD and the ability to 'super wavedash' any of his smashes from over half FD's distance? Yes. Very nice. Capable of punishing a lot of things. Only thing is a lack of considerable range, although mobility can get around that obstacle. Rating: Above Average
• In the air: Honestly, Squirtle is one of the best characters in the air. His only problem is the lack of range on some attacks. Attacks are instantaneous, little to no landing lag, great priority. His dair cancels out Meta Knight's glide attack...and continues on to hit MK, when positioned properly. The tail seems to have the most priority. Rating: Above Average
• Off-stage: Good aerial game and Water Gun lend Squirtle to being a good gimper. When returning, Squirtle is just like most other characters. One jump, average recovery move. Withdraw is an option above the stage. The only thing is never using that second jump before a Withdraw, so that if you are hit, you still have a second jump and Waterfall. Rating: Average

SPACING

• Extreme long distance: Squirtle is really hard to hit since he's so small and cute. And can crouch. Good mobility both in the air and on the ground so he doesn't have to stay here too long. I think Squirtle is comfortable here, but doesn't really want to stay here since he has to be close to do anything. Rating: Bearable
• Long distance: Squirtle doesn't mind being here. Shellshifting allow Squirtle to quickly get closer and pressure the opponent. Good aerial mobility to get closer. Again, projectiles aren't a huge hassle for Squirtle. Rating: Bearable
• Medium distance: Squirtle likes it here. Shellshifting is much more effective. Short hop to whatever is also usable with good DI. Squirtle can pick his spots and be choosy about when he does, because shellshifting and aerial DI lend themselves to good spacing. Rating: Bearable
• Short distance: Squirtle likes it here. He can follow up on openings and attack quickly and swiftly. But he has to be very wary of shieldgrabbers., which can totally wreck him from up close. Rating: Bearable

KILLING

• Killing power: Shellshifting makes all three Smashes mobile and the ability to charge as you slide lets Squirtle kill earlier than normally possible. However, this can become predictable and the effectiveness will wear off a bit. It's always a threat, which means that the opponent can never be too comfortable. The less the Squirtle Shifts Smashes, the more effective it is as a killing option. Squirtle's down-throw is one of the best kill throws in the game, definitely. And it's easy to take advantage of because of shellshifting. Rating: Above Average
• Gimping potential: Dair has a strong semi-spike trajectory and is his main gimp tool. Fair is a strong aerial when fresh, but not strong enough to gimp at ridiculous sub-80% range. Water Gun is a very useful and funny tool to use. Even if it can't outright gimp some characters, it can put them in a bad position where they will have to respond in a certain, predictable way. Sometimes the threat of Water Gun is enough to force characters into recovering from below, in which case a Dair can stage spike or timely edge hug can gimp. Rating: Average

Pokemon Trainer's Average Score - 28 (Ivysaur really screwed it up, lol)

I hope it is to your liking sirs. Notice how Squirtle's analysis is much more detailed because Steeler36 talked about it but no one else talked about the other two characters in such detail.

 

[Steeler]

hmmm well i'll look at your post for critiques, but skimming over it, it looks quite solid.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Hmm why usnt bullet seed even mentioned on the ivysaur section??? An btw, ivysaurs gimp game is better than "terrible", instant tether and bair barrage work pretty well... other than that your post is pretty right

 

[infernovia]

Actually, Charizard's best aerial option is bair (good range). Fair has great gimping potential, but I wouldn't use it unless trying to gimp/offstage. I almost never use it when the opponent is grounded due to its ghostboxes and its unflattering sweetspot range. All in all, I agree with average, but I don't want people getting the wrong idea.

 

[DRaGZ]

Okay, so include bullet-seed for Ivysaur and b-air for Charizard.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Ivysaur - 21

ZONING

• On the ground: Ivysaur has good and bad options. He has great range and a cool projectile, but the longest ranges attacks aren't always the strongest. His stronger attacks are particularly strong (his up-smash is the fastest in the game and it's absurdly fast) but they can be easily punished if missed. Rating: Average

• 
  
  What are the bad options? Ivysaur has a lot of good options. Ftilt, Dtilt if you want to send them away (Or sometimes Nair), and SHFF Bair. Something that needs to be noted somewhere (Probably here) is a rewording of the second sentence: Ivysaur has nice range, but most of the multi-hit moves do not do a lot of damage at the farthest range (Look at Ftilt especially; 14% becomes 2%). Usmash is not very fast. Bullet Seed definitely needs to be in here somewhere. Bullet Seed is fast and the initial hit is fast enough to interrupt some strange things (Marth's final multi-hit Dancing Blade, Shiek's repeated Ftilt's, etc) and is a very potent punisher, but is extremely punishable if missed. Ivysaur excels at anti-air especially and is actually a very strong character in this regard.
  
  

  [*]In the air: Ivysaur has some great ranged attacks, but they're nothing special in terms of damage and knock back. His u-air and d-air are extremely powerful, but have a tiny hit box (you have to basically be inside an opponent to do it properly). The main problem here lies in his overall awkwardness, especially in that the moves don't flow together as well as one would hope. Rating: Below Average

  The Dair spike has a small and specific hitbox, but Uair and Dair have pretty large hit boxes. Ivysar's Nair is a great aerial move and a primary damage racker (12%?). Ivysaur does okay if its chasing an opponent into the air with Nair or Bair, but does very poorly if it is being followed by an opponent (This goes for Ivysaur in general, it is extremely weak from below).
  
  

  [*]Off-stage: Ivysaur falls somewhat fast and has a terrible recovery. Bad idea to venture out here. Rating: Terrible

It's not a bad idea, but the Ivysaur player needs to be extremely careful in order to get anywhere. This is similar to other aerial combat: Ivysaur does okay (Worse though because of going off-stage) when its following an opponent out, but does poorly when the opponent is coming out for it. In general, a good way to sum that up methinks is that Ivysaur is relatively "comfortable" in the air when it is between the stage and the opponent. Of course, there are some characters that Ivysaur should just forget this thought completely (Metaknight, ROB, etc.)

SPACING

• Extreme long distance: It is difficult for Ivysaur to force an approach from here. Rating: Bearable
• Long distance: Razor Leaf is pretty effective at this range and can force an opponent to get closer due to harassment. Rating: Comfortable
• Medium distance: At this range, many of Ivysaur's safest attacks do very well, including his whipping aerials, his grabs, and his jabbing whips. Rating: Comfortable
• Short distance: Unfortunately, once an opponent is this close, a lot of attacks Ivysaur does will either be too slow, thus power-shielded and attacked, or not strong enough to reset its spacing game. Rating: Uncomfortable

KILLING

• Killing power: The primary problem lies in Ivysaur's inability to land his best killing moves. His forward-smash is beastly, but it is highly punishable. His up-smash is absurdly powerful, but Ivysaur must get in very close to hit it, which if where he does the poorest. Rating: Below Average

• 
  
  You do need to mention that Ivysaur's throws have considerable knockback and will get kills if the opponent does not DI correctly (Bthrow, Uthrow). Fair will also get kills from the top of the stage. Note that if Ivysaur wants to succesfully get a KO, it will need to predict the opponent’s movements to land the moves or switch out to Charizard (In agreement with the first sentence).
  
  

  [*]Gimping potential: Ivysaur has a wicked Nair spike. However, his poor options off-stage makes it so he cannot easily commit to it, especially since he must get so close to the opponent to make it worthwhile. In other words, he'll probably never be spiking anyone decent. Rating: Terrible

Again, this goes along with "Ivysaur is comfortable when between the opponent and the stage. Having a tether recovery actually makes it somewhat safer to edge guard since Ivysaur can pull to the ledge quickly and gain invulnerability frames or simply "abort mission" if need be. This is actually a good place to surprise the opponent with Uair, but generally you'll be using Nair and Bair.

Charizard - 33

ZONING

• On the ground: He is relatively powerful on the ground and he has great range on a lot of his moves. The problem lies in the fact that they are mostly very slow and thus very punishable. Rating: Average

• 
  
  Think of Charizard as a slightly slower, slightly less ranged, multi-jumping Donkey Kong. He has relatively fast and long ranged tilts with medium-slow specials (Rock Smash, Flamethrower). His first two jabs are slightly faster versions of Bowser's jabs, but the one thing that is very important is that he has the largest non-tether grab range in the game, and he will try to abuse this a lot with Fthrow and Bthrow.
  
  

  [*]In the air: Charizard has a lot of safe options in the air, both with his aerials (f-air and n-air being the most remarkable) and his Rock Smash. However, they are slow enough to be telegraphed and, if the opponent is comfortable enough in the air, can be dealt with easily. Rating: Average

  Nair is really only if they're above you, likely on a platform. Uair is a quick jab of Charizard's neck that lingers for a relatively large amount of time and can hit people when they come out of air dodges sometimes (Sex kick properties). Bair is what Charizard's going to be using horizontally, though. Fair's got stupid hit boxes and is really only for gimping/off-stage.
  
  

  [*]Off-stage: Once off-stage, the speed of Charizard's aerials become a much smaller problem because his mobility compared to other characters helps off-set this. Fair is suddenly extremely dangerous. His Sky Attack suddenly becomes nearly unpunishable. However, there are characters that outclass him here simply because they are faster or more powerful. Rating: Above Average

What's Sky Attack =?

SPACING

• Extreme long distance: Charizard literally has nothing he can do out here, and he's large enough to be a sitting duck for any projectile. Rating: Uncomfortable
• Long distance: Charizard has more options here. He can begin using his Flamethrower for harassment and he has a much easier time dashing in and getting a grab. Rating: Bearable
• Medium distance: Almost everything Charizard can do works here. He has vey good range. Rating: Comfortable
• Short distance: Same as medium distance. Speed isn't a large issue here because the hitboxes come out relatively fast for Charizard. Rating: Comfortable

KILLING

• Killing power: Charizard is very strong, but he has to work a bit to land the killing blow. If his attacks have not diminished, however, as soon as he lands the blow, the opponent is probably dead. Rating: Above Average

• 
  
  A lot of Charizard's attacks are good for both general use and damage build-up. I do not particularly ever find myself "working for a kill" with Charizard; he has good options in Usmash, Bair, Uthrow on lighter characters or stages with lower ceilings, and Dtilt.
  
  

  [*]Gimping potential: Charizard's great aerial mobility and edge guarding game makes this very easy for Charizard. Any aerial works great if the opponent recovers head-on, but an opponent recovering from below makes the d-air more difficult to hit than one would hope. Rating: Above Average

Well, you're not really going to use Uair or Nair that much, but Fair and Bair are definate staples of Charizard's gimping game.

For Squirtle in general: I think that, compared to the rest of the characters that have already been done, he's getting too much credit in certain areas. Above Average ground zoning is better than ROB, who I think got Average (Which is the reason I originally motioned forth Average as Ivysaur's ground zoning, since I find it slightly less useful than ROB).

BTW: I agree with all of the ratings except Ivysaur's ground spacing, I just wanted to make the descriptions a little more detailed.

 

[DRaGZ]

This is what happens when you guys don't write the analyses! I don't know that much about Pokemon Trainer, so it was hard for me to write anything specific.

If you would not mind, if there a way of like...consolidating what you just said into thingies that would be easy to put into the original post? If it's not too much trouble...>_>

 

[Charizard92]

Yeah, we may need to Recheck Ivysaur because according to the numbers, Ivysaur is the "low as dirt" character right now (second lowest is Fox. Ganondorf & C. Falcon both rate at 25, one above Fox and 4 above Ivysaur).

 

[Steeler]

ok squirtle

ganondorf and luigi have "average" ground game. i don't think squirtle ties with them either lol. rob should definitely have above average ground game anyway, someone is clearly underrating his ftilt/dtilt/dsmash/gyro games. but, i'll concede to average ground for squirtle if more people disagree, i know that retro does. noooooooo way squirtle is below average here though.

squirtle needs to have average kill potential, tcr and retro let me see clearly now, the rain is gone.

medium distance needs to be comfortable.

ivysaur

ivy's zoning on the ground needs to be above average, no question.

i don't know that ivy is below average zoning in the air because bair stops a looooot of aerial approaches, autocancelled fair is both a good spacer and killer, and nair is a pretty good option up close because it pokes through shields often. the thing is that ivysaur is either REALLY GOOD in the air, or REALLY BAD in the air haha. depends on who has control, and ivysaur has an easier time controlling some characters. i'd say average to...average it out.

i think short distance is bearable simply because of bullet seed. shield/spot dodge something and bullet seed. it's that simple, and a good opponent will ALWAYS have to be on the lookout for bullet seed. for reference, bullet seed is quick enough to interrupt lucas's jab combo and jab cancels. nair/utilt are also great up close, and all three chain into each other.

at first i thought extreme long distance should be uncomfortable for ivysaur, but then i realized that the only characters that really bother the hell out of ivy there is falco and rob, who are exceptional there.

ivy's gimping potential implies that ivy's only gimp option is dair and that ivy can't gimp because of his recovery. this is wrong. first, as long as ivysaur is between the opponent and the stage, he's pretty safe because he can tether at any moment. instant tether really screws characters that often rely on grabbin the edge to recover. out of instant tether, ivysaur can nair spike or bair wall. ivy still belongs in terrible gimp category, but i just want to make clear that dair spike isn't ivy's only option.

chahzahd

i think charizard needs above average ground game. charizard's ground game is definitely > his air game on stage, and both are ranked average. his grab is just so good. some characters hate zard just because of his grab. flamethrower and rock smash are a little slow but still usable because of the range and damage output they have. they are not that punishable if used correctly (ie the opponent isn't right in your face, although rock smash is an exception sometimes). zard has a faster, quicker bowser jab and slower, rangier ftilt, equally quick dtilt with slightly less range. zard's ground game is just really good when the opponent is at medium distance because zard has so many options at that point. decent to good up close, thanks to grab and jab. UP SMASHHHH btw. comes out in 5 frames. tremendous OoS option.

basically i think zard's ground game is slightly better than bowser's.

if bowser has 'amazing' KO power, then i think charizard could make a case for it as well. fresh charizard can reasonably kill with utilt, ftilt, dtilt, usmash, rock smash, throws, fly. tilts and usmash are all quick (5 frame usmash???), strong and KO most characters at 120%. rock smash is actually a terrific kill move, its just that zard usually has it staled. throws are scary for the opponent near the edge of a stage. fly is lulzy, but super armoring an attack and then killing can happen. i don't have a huge problem with above average here, though.

also, dragz added a survivability section. here's pt's.

Squirtle
Recovery: Squirtle's really light, so he can be killed out-right somewhat easily, but his floatiness makes it very easy for him to jump back to safety. His Waterfall is a relatively safe recovery, but its awkward angle makes him get stuck under ledges sometimes, and it's not unpunishable. Rating: Intermediate
Staying Power: Squirtle is very light and his options for keeping an opponent away aren't the greatest. If he's at kill percentage, he's pending for a bending. Rating: Difficult
Ivysaur
Recovery: Ivysaur's recovery is terrible, and quite possible the worst tether-dependent recovery in the game; at least Olimar can potentially gimp his opponent along with him and can manageably fight someone trying to gimp him. Although he has methods to try to get around this, there's no getting around the fact that his tether makes him oh-so-vulnerable as he is recovering. Rating: Difficult
Staying Power: Ivysaur actually does quite well at keeping an opponent away. His ability to space with his vines makes it difficult to properly approach for the killing blow. It's not like the opponent can't ever get inside, but they're going to have a bit of a time doing it. Rating: Intermediate
Charizard
Recovery: Charizard is a tough sunuva*****, very heavy, and several safe counter-options while recovering. He has multiple jumps, a glide, and an Up+B that's difficult to punish off-stage. All-in-all, very solid. Rating: Easy
Staying Power: Charizard is very heavy and his spacing options, with his f-air and Rock Smash, are very good. He's not dying easily anytime soon. Rating: Easy

i agree with a lot of this. the only thing i really want to address is squirtle's staying power. true, he is very light. but squirtle's version of "staying power" is a loooot like sonic's. aka be really annoying and move around everywhere. air speed is really good. size is very small. dash speed is okay, foxtrot is decent. shellshifting can bait attacks. i don't know if its enough to change it to intermediate staying power, but this definitely needs a mention.

commentssss plz

 

[Toby.]

Charizard, you need to realise that these numbers aren't the sort you can reliably compare with each other. They mean very little because the difference between average, above average and amazing is a subjective one. Talking about where they are compared to each other due to numbers means nothing, especially when characters like ivysaur tend to rely on certain aspects of the game and avoid others.

edit: omg massive steeler post. I agree with it all really.

 

[Charizard92]

That explains the really low numbers. Unfortunately, you kinda axed some hope for higher tier placement for PT, as Charizard is on around the same level as ROB and PT isn't too far behind.

 

[Toby.]

*shrug*

The tiers where never going to be changed to match these results. The method isn't nearly reliable enough. The only thing that can improve PT's place is tournament results, which is how its always been.