How is Ganondorf now compared to Brawl?

[Captain Norris]

The new rage mechanic in itself already makes Ganondorf potentially buffed.

 

[lordgiratina7000]

Mhm....Ganondorf got sexier of course!

 

[Masonomace]

compared to you say??

One term: RCO Lag.
It's removed from Sm4sh.
'Nuff said.
Ganon automatically would seem better with that removed.

 

[Daeyrat]

Something that i ve been thinking lately. Can air custom blue wizardkick be used as air recovery?
The trajectory seems pretty horizontal
.

 

[WwwWario]

Something that i ve been thinking lately. Can air custom blue wizardkick be used as air recovery?
The trajectory seems pretty horizontal
.

For recovery, it definitely seems better than his normal one, because, as you say, it goes alot more horizontaly :D Gotta love Blue Wizard's Foot!

 

[Hydde]

Something that i ve been thinking lately. Can air custom blue wizardkick be used as air recovery?
The trajectory seems pretty horizontal
.

Like the one above me said...yeh seems prety legit for recovery.... now more than ever that he lost his "jump recovery" after the wizard kick.

Blue wizzkick, plus his third upB = recovery chances practically doubled.

 

[Morbi]

Like the one above me said...yeh seems prety legit for recovery.... now more than ever that he lost his "jump recovery" after the wizard kick.

Blue wizzkick, plus his third upB = recovery chances practically doubled.

Ganondorf lost his "jump recovery" after the Wizard's Foot in Brawl. So that is nothing new... unless you are asserting that his recovery is better in Brawl despite not having the "jump recovery" from Melee or Project M. In that case, you would be correct.

 

[Hydde]

Ganondorf lost his "jump recovery" after the Wizard's Foot in Brawl. So that is nothing new... unless you are asserting that his recovery is better in Brawl despite not having the "jump recovery" from Melee or Project M. In that case, you would be correct.

Sorry if I was not clear, yes i was referring about how bad his recovery was in brawl, and still it is in smash4 with default moves.
In melee his recovery was much much better because of his ability to recover his jump after using wizzkick and his UpB covering more horizontal distance. And yes, from what i have seen, i think his recovery with the bluekick and the 3rd upB is much better in conjunction, even with the lack of the jump our of the upB

Now, if my assumptions are not wrong... you could use the bluekick to cover the horizontal distance needed, and then use the 3rd upB to return from below the stage after. The third upB has a surprisingly good vertical recovery, taking in consideration how bad his recovery is right now.

 

[Morbi]

Sorry if I was not clear, yes i was referring about how bad his recovery was in brawl, and still it is in smash4 with default moves.
In melee his recovery was much much better because of his ability to recover his jump after using wizzkick and his UpB covering more horizontal distance. And yes, from what i have seen, i think his recovery with the bluekick and the 3rd upB is much better in conjunction, even with the lack of the jump our of the upB

Now, if my assumptions are not wrong... you could use the bluekick to cover the horizontal distance needed, and then use the 3rd upB to return from below the stage after. The third upB has a surprisingly good vertical recovery, taking in consideration how bad his recovery is right now.

No, I apologize, I feel as though I was the one who misconstrued something. I just wanted to be certain.

I certainly see the benefits of the blue Wizard's Foot, it does seem to be purely based on recovery; however, I feel as though a more power-based up-special would serve its purpose as well. If you have so much vertical distance, it does not matter that the default one sends you downward as much. As for the blue Wizard's foot, if you move more horizontally as opposed to downward, you do not need as vertical recovery (in most circumstances).

The possibilities are really interesting. I am probably going to use the blue dive-kick in conjunction with the third up-special in the beginning and see if it is necessary or not. As a former Link main and a current Ganon main, I am no stranger to repugnant recoveries. So in the end, I am going to choose the move with the most utility. That was one of his inherent problems in Brawl, he did not have many tools.

Cheers to Ganon finally having a decent recovery though. Even if custom moves are banned for whatever reason, these new ledge-mechanics benefit him far more than the rest of the cast.

 

[Hydde]

Ill try for myself and judge too.
Is just that i feel that his recovery (horizontally and vertically) is just plain bad and is his weakest link. If we can somehow fix this, i think his viability goes up levels. The thing would be, when to choose those customs. For example... i like much more the explosive 2nd upB instead of the third one... so ill try to use that too. And i like a lot the explosive warlock punch.. but the sword warlock punch will be IMO much more useful since it has insane range and it KILLS.

 

[Dr_Falchion]

If his moves were overall better in other ways, even though he is slow, Ganondorf would be more of a force to be reckoned with. Range and Area of Effect would both be nice - which is part of why characters like Ike work better - the sword covers a wider area. Higher damage on some of his slower moves and smashes might be nice - and shield breaking potential should definitely be included. Perhaps give his moves less start-up / end lag in certain situations - he might not be able to approach you easily with the Warlock Punch, but perhaps it could be pulled off faster in midair than the Falcon Punch (or an AoE darkness effect when he lands - that would be cool)?

Also, Ganondorf could also be great with more combo potential. If he's a strong, brutish character, he should be able to link some attacks better once he gets them started (in a barbarian sort of way). The majority of his moves could still be slow, but reduce the end-lag / startup-lag if you immediately transfer into another move - for example: Jab into Up Tilt, Bair into Dair, Fair into Wizard's Foot. Some of his moves could keep their startup and end-lag, but the actual hit would play out faster - which is realistic, considering the momentum that his moves would bring.

However, Ganondorf does look better than his Brawl counterpart. Not as good as Melee / PM, but better than Brawl.

(I still think a projectile could help - Dead Man's Volley would be great).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ill try for myself and judge too.
Is just that i feel that his recovery (horizontally and vertically) is just plain bad and is his weakest link. If we can somehow fix this, i think his viability goes up levels. The thing would be, when to choose those customs. For example... i like much more the explosive 2nd upB instead of the third one... so ill try to use that too. And i like a lot the explosive warlock punch.. but the sword warlock punch will be IMO much more useful since it has insane range and it KILLS.

Ganon's recovery is passable as it is right now. Yes you WILL get hit by good players offstage, and every so often there is a character who can gimp you if you let yourself get caught in really awkward positions and angles, but most of the time you can eventually make it back to the edge as long as you don't waste your midair jump poorly. I do not think it is unrealistic for Ganondorf to survive to 150% most stocks. Keep in mind that Ganondorf's good aerials offer him some protection against edgeguards, and airdodging offstage is actually less laggy than it was in Brawl, giving you a few extra defensive options to sneak past aggressive offstage games.

Ganon's biggest problem is approaching past projectiles and his terrible grab range, which prevents him from having any real pressure on shield and spotdodge. Your gameplan hinges on either hoping your opponents run into your D-tilt/Jab or them letting you actually walk up into grab range where you then have control over them. Neither option is easy for Ganon to work with, and probably at higher levels you're required to powershield to make plays that get you in range. Yes once Ganon DOES get in, a few reads can seal the stock when his damage racking and KO potential is basically the highest in the game. But still...it's really, REALLY hard to get in.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

and shield breaking potential should definitely be included.

UTilt breaks a full shield in a hit. Though slow, it's the strongest shield breaker in the game now, even more so than Marth's neutral B.

 

[Dr_Falchion]

Ganon's biggest problem is approaching past projectiles and his terrible grab range, which prevents him from having any real pressure on shield and spotdodge.

Does anyone know how the new rolling affects this? Rolling seems a lot faster in this game, and in the demo I can often use it to help avoid projectiles, especially ones that take more time to get going, like the Lloyd Rocket.

Also, Ganondorf's recovery is at least aided by the new ledge-stealing mechanics and backwards / good range on ledge grabs. Side-B into ledge grab would be nice, though.

Also, @ Ray_Kalm , that's nice to know! Also, do any characters have shields that last longer than others? If not, a longer shield time might be beneficial to Ganondorf - not radically, but it could give him an advantage since he's so often a sitting duck. Expanded Out-Of-Shield options is another good choice.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Does anyone know how the new rolling affects this? Rolling seems a lot faster in this game, and in the demo I can often use it to help avoid projectiles, especially ones that take more time to get going, like the Lloyd Rocket.

Also, Ganondorf's recovery is at least aided by the new ledge-stealing mechanics and backwards / good range on ledge grabs. Side-B into ledge grab would be nice, though.

Ganon's roll looks identical to Brawl. It's not any better or worse, but it was already a good roll. Can't tell if rolling is still technically faster than running, but either way, Ganon's rolls have always been good and remain so.

Try it against Duck Hunt and ZSS though, you're going to get punished. So you have to wisely shield your way in generally speaking and do your best to read when they want to try to grab or poke you.

 

[toadster101]

I liked using Ganondorf in Brawl, so no complaints from me. Landing a Warlock Punch is always satisfying.