How important is Sheilda (will Shielda be Sheik's downfall)?

[ThreeSided]

I'm a Sheik player with a simple problem: I don't want to play Zelda. So my question is, how important is learning Zelda to my success as Sheik? While I understand that Sheik is a good character by herself, the question of whether she is still going to be fully viable down the road is of issue to me.

Hear me out.

From a casual perspective, it may seem perfectly fine to rate Zelda and Sheik individually as characters. However, from a competitive perspective, this is not possible. They are, essentially, the same character with two different "modes". This adds tons of versatility to the character, and - feel free to dispute my logic in this, because I'd love to be wrong - is something that must be taken into consideration when re-balancing occurs. Right now, PM Zelda is still fresh and relatively unlearned compared to veteran Sheik, and, as a consequence, so is PM Sheilda. But as players get better, Sheilda is naturally going to become an extremely powerful character. Both Sheik and Zelda are often argued to be higher tier on their own in this game. It only makes sense that having the ability to use both in the same game would make them even better. Given time, the PMBR is going to be forced to nerf both Sheik and Zelda just to keep Shielda on par with everyone else, and the result is going to be that, as individual characters, they won't be very good.

This obviously won't be a problem for those who are fine with playing Sheilda, but for those like me who don't want to play Zelda (she's played by every other person in our friend group and I'm sick of her) or those who don't want to play Sheik, it just feels like the low tier issues from the other games all over again. I'd rather not have to pick between playing the character I want and winning! (Oh, the irony!)

So I suppose this comes down to two questions for discussion:

Is playing Sheilda necessary to do well as Sheik or Zelda in the current environment?

If not, then will Sheilda result in the nerfing of Sheik and Zelda down the road in such a way that will make them potentially mediocre/nonviable, or is this a logical fallacy?

 

[shairn]

I don't think there's a single character that warrants switching mid-match. If you're better off using Zelda, you'd pick Zelda on the CSS. Same goes for Sheik. At most, I could see switching to Zelda for recovery purposes, but if you're advantaged by using Zelda, there really shouldn't be any reason to switch to Sheik. I actually feel like the ability to switch between both brings them down, since they have one less available move.

Really, this question should be asked when and if ever someone shows that Sheilda is superior to the individual characters. As it is there's nothing that points to that.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

As Sheik lags a bit of killing power and Zelda has other problems with for example pressure and utilizing Sheilda makes the character <5% better, there is no rebalancing needed imho

 

[shairn]

In what situation would switching from one to the other be a sensible idea, given the time it takes to transform?

 

[luxingo]

Is playing Sheilda necessary to do well as Sheik or Zelda in the current environment?

A better character isn't necessary for doing well; it just makes it easier to do so. But if you do want to maximise your win rate, then I would say that learning Sheilda is a good idea.

In what situation would switching from one to the other be a sensible idea, given the time it takes to transform?

Zelda's recovery is much better, so one situation is when Sheik is launched far offstage, so transforming and using Zelda's recovery could help her survive. Also, there are fewer frames where she is vulnerable after transform, and moves can be 'buffered' (hold an input other than c-stick and it'll come out on the first available frame). And transform gets rid of the sticky C4.

http://smashboards.com/threads/transforming-is-pointless.345015/ might be a good read.

 

[shairn]

I knew about the ones you mentioned, but the boost transform and the ability to act out of frame 1 surprise me.

To be perfectly honest though, the only utility I can see for both of these is to recover from lower with sheik and then reverting back safely, which goes back to what I said. I can't see a situation where I'd like to stay as Zelda if I started out as Sheik, and can go back to Sheik relatively safely, by buffering an airdodge/nair. Of course, taking out Snake's C4 is one thing, but it seems easier to just kill Snake than to transform every time he stickies you.

 

[YourMainManMewtwo]

I never liked the combination of characters or "modes" within a character, and was excited to see PM separating Shiek/Zelda along with Poke Trainer. The fact is because Brawl had the option to choose either character pre-match even when they were combined, using Shiek and Shiek alone shouldn't be a problem. Switching to Zelda when your only intention is to own it up with Shiek is unnecessary, and I can't see why anyone should think it isn't.

 

[Deleted member]

In what situation would switching from one to the other be a sensible idea, given the time it takes to transform?

never.

just play the one you like and you'll do better.

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

I would say being able to play both competently would be beneficial. While you can normally switch between the two based on matchup, every so often players don't play with the amount of pressure one would expect from a character. Shielda's unique position to switch mid-match lets you adapt more completely to each opponent based on both their playstyle and their character. I don't think you should have to switch more than, like, once mid match, (say, for select KO's or recoveries), since that's pretty impractical. Being skilled with both is a boon, but not required.

 

[Arcalyth]

never.

just play the one you like and you'll do better.

you couldn't have thought about it a little harder?

At the absolute least, transforming and using Zelda to recover is a fantastic idea and will keep you alive much longer than not using transform. Not dying is half of what wins you a tournament

 

[Deleted member]

against a good opponent that understands edge hogging, switching to the character with the weaker skillset in the MU is going to still get you killed, but you're also going to be stuck on the worse character when you come back for the next stock.

all else equal, once character will always have a better skillset than the alternative in any given MU, so you should stick to that better skill set all else equal. however, since it's generally better to just play one character, and it's hard to differentiate sheik and zelda in terms of goodness (for now), you should just play the one you like better.

i thought about it trust me

 

[GeZ]

This is like people talking about Samus being able to switch to ZSS mid match. It's not important because if you wanted to play ZSS, or ZSS was a better character for the matchup, you'd just choose them to begin with.

Also the top post is wrong. Shiek and Zelda are completely different. Saying that they're not seperate but instead modes of a character is wrong. They have entirely different goals, kill percents, gimping, comboing, literally everything.

Shiek doesn't need the Down B as she's already really solid in P:M. So switching to Zelda isn't important in any match, and not having a Down B won't cripple Shiek.

Uninformed thread.

 

[Aidoony]

It will not be shieks downfall because even though sheilda is a good character sheik is better

 

[ThreeSided]

This is like people talking about Samus being able to switch to ZSS mid match. It's not important because if you wanted to play ZSS, or ZSS was a better character for the matchup, you'd just choose them to begin with.

Also the top post is wrong. Shiek and Zelda are completely different. Saying that they're not seperate but instead modes of a character is wrong. They have entirely different goals, kill percents, gimping, comboing, literally everything.

Shiek doesn't need the Down B as she's already really solid in P:M. So switching to Zelda isn't important in any match, and not having a Down B won't cripple Shiek.

Uninformed thread.

You misunderstood me. I'm not saying that Sheik and Zelda are the same, I'm saying that they are technically one character with two different modes, at least by the definition stating that you choose a character at the beginning of the match and have to play as them until then end. While they may have different goals as separate characters, one could argue for the theoretical use of Sheilda as a separate character which may have its own goals, kill percentages, etc. However, the two are definitely very different, and as Umbreon has been doing you can certainly make the argument that changing "modes" mid match is not practical, which would mean that pragmatically speaking they should be looked at as separate characters. The argument for Sheilda is that she was not viable in melee but could potentially become viable in the future of project M now that Zelda isn't ass. At the end of they day, since you can play with them interchangeably in a match they are functionally the same playable character. It just has never been a viable option in the past and therefore pragmatically has never been realistically considered from this perspective.

That being said, you are perfectly welcome to argue that the transformation is neither useful nor necessary and that this is a non-issue. I didn't make this thread because I believed it was an issue, I brought it up because I was not sure and saw it as a potential issue. Your opinion is valued, and any contribution you can make to the discussion will be as well.

 

[G13_Flux]

the use of shielda is also as much of a mindgame as it is anything else. The ability to completely switch your character and style of play mid match can entirely throw off your opponents game, as they may have gotten conditioned and used to a lot of the things you did with one character. this leaves them to try and anticipate not only your actions with one of the characters, but they have to be prepared to formulate a strategy, and adapt to your playstlyes with both of them. trying to deal with this is like if you were facing a fox that constantly switched between the playstyles of M2K and mango. they play quite differently, and the fox would be almost impossible to read making dealing with the MU quite overwhelming. its that ability to present your opponent with a character that has double the options that makes that attribute so potent.

 

[GeZ]

But your example differs in that those are two different play styles from two different people. Switching from Shiek to Zelda and back won't reroll your habits. You're of course playing a different character, but whatever things you do when your on tilt, or feel in control, will remain. Plus from a MU perspective they operate so differently that switching could put you at the disadvantage suddenly in the MU.

I think a VERY capable player could take advantage of what you're saying Flux, but for anyone else it would hurt them rather than help.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I literally just watched a tournament video where a Sheik switched to Zelda to recover then landed a quick up smash and then transformed right back to sheik. He soon after took a stock where he would have been dead without the transformation.

I don't know what you mean about different goals. Every characters goal is to rack up percent then land a kill or maybe land a gimp.

As for different player match ups, your Sheik might be losing but then you switch to Zelda and the opponent doesn't know how to deal with Din's fires. Or maybe Zelda is overwhelmed by a very fast opponent so you switch to Sheik.

There is a huge variety of reasons you might want to switch mid match.

 

[GeZ]

At high level play you won't run into players not knowing how to deal with one of Sheik's or Zelda's tools. One of the two will always be better suited for the matchup.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

At high level play you won't run into players not knowing how to deal with one of Sheik's or Zelda's tools. One of the two will always be better suited for the matchup.

Playstyle playstyle playstyle

Your Sheik might beat the playstyle of one Marth but your Zelda beat the playstyle of another. It's just ridiculous to make a blanket statement like that.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Sheik is an incredibly solid character in PM and the only reason I can see switching to Zelda is recovery but even that is very situational. I don't feel Zelda, Sheik or Sheilda need any buffs or nerfs, however they could use new down Bs. Always hated how Sheik felt a little incomplete due to now down special. Also, Zelda is really good in her own right, and I would not switch to Sheik if I started with Zelda.

 

[|~J~|]

Sheik main here. To be honest, i find myself switching to zelda a lot when i play floaty MU's like samus and kirby. It's very difficult to kill those two specifically with sheiks fair. Zelda has more killing moves/options like f-smash u-smash and fairs/bairs. Other then that, it can be hard to instantly know when you will likely be ledge guarded/when sheik can't recover back, so the sooner you know this the sooner you can transform, and the likelihood of recovering back on stage is much greater.

 

[Deleted member]

Playstyle playstyle playstyle

Your Sheik might beat the playstyle of one Marth but your Zelda beat the playstyle of another. It's just ridiculous to make a blanket statement like that.

at high level play we call playstyles "bad habits".

 

[Jellyfish4102]

at high level play we call playstyles "bad habits".

Not really even the very best of a particular character play differently.

 

[Deleted member]

thats called imperfection

they still play hella more similar than bads with "playstyles" do

 

[Jellyfish4102]

thats called imperfection

they still play hella more similar than bads with "playstyles" do

Ok... You're not discrediting my point which is that tournament players have different playstyles which might make a Sheilda player decide to switch mid match.