How Important Is SHDL and How Do Most Pros Do It?

[HalcyonDays]

Hey guys, I've been working with Fox for a few days now and I've got most of the basic techs down, with the fanciest thing I can currently pull off being sets of Drill -> Waveshine.

The one tech that is currently giving me trouble are Fox's short hops, and thus his short hop double lasers. When first learning Fox, I tried about 3 or 4 different hand positions trying to find the best method, but ended up coming full circle back to the default hand position.

My current method of inputting short hops is to tap the Control Stick, as trying to swipe the the edges of the Y or X buttons has yielded low success, even after hours of practice, trying to speed up my fingers.

(It's not even like my fingers are just slow or anything, being able to type at over 100 wpm, as well as playing multiple instruments at a fairly fast speed. This two-frame jump-squat is kind of ridiculous though. Sorry, just a bit frustrated lol.)

I can definitely short hop and SHDL with some consistency using tap jump, but I find that the next Smash session, I feel like I've reset and have to learn it all over again...

This said, how important is SHDL anyway? Would I be fine without it? How do most top level players input their short hops and SHDL?

 

[Stride]

It's a 3 frame jumpsquat, but with a 2 frame window to release the button/stick.

There's honestly not much to say besides just "get faster"; everyone can do it eventually unless they have actual hand issues (which I'm assuming you don't have). Don't "try too hard" and end up being too tense/jerky; that makes it harder and less consistent. Keep swiping your finger off the edge of the button. If you can short hop with the other 3 frame jumpsquat characters (Sheik, Samus, Pikachu, Pichu, Kirby, Ice Climbers) but not with Fox then your problem is mostly a mental block.

If you're a new player then it's going to take you a while to be fast or consistent in general with any character, especially Fox. At first you'll probably only be able to short hop when you're warmed up, then after a while it'll be so ingrained in your muscle memory that you'll be able to get it >99% of the time no matter how badly you're playing.

You'll probably find that short hopping on its own is easier than short hopping into an immediate action or immediately after pressing another face button, since trying to reposition your hand from/for the next action can affect your jump input. I still mess up the short hop in running shine->SHFFL nair even though I can do the SHFFL nair on its own just fine.

I wouldn't recommend using tap jump, since it doesn't enable you to move around/position yourself as well as you are able to when using a button, and it messes with your DI and fastfalling. Even if you find tap jump easier, learning it that way is greedy since you'll be limiting yourself in the long run.

If you normally use Y to jump, then there's no reason not to use Y for SHDL. If you normally use X, then you could either just get really fast at moving from X to B, or use use Y for lasers while continuing to use X for everything else (that's what I do).

Short hop double laser is important, but short hop single laser is useful too; you should be using both.

M2K said he uses X for everything, including SHDL. Mango uses Y. I'm pretty sure Dark uses X. Bullet Bill uses Y and can't SHDL. It doesn't really matter what the other players do though; whatever works for you is best. While there is an "objective" best option in terms of economy of movement (Y for everything since it's closest to B), that option isn't necessarily going to be the fastest/most comfortable/most consistent option for you in practice.

 

[zpxociv]

Fox advanced tech input madness is its own justice for anyone that can't realize when something's gone way, way beyond the realm of developer intention. I hope you all SUFFER your stubborn attitudes towards Foxwad's unreasonably fast input bull.
-Kazual 4 lyf-

 

[HalcyonDays]

If you're a new player then it's going to take you a while to be fast or consistent with any character, especially Fox. At first you'll probably only be able to do it when you're warmed up, then after a while it'll be so ingrained in your muscle memory that you'll be able to get it >99% of the time no matter how badly you're playing.

Well, I've been playing for a little over 6 months working on character tech with Roy, mostly SHFFLs and general movement with wavelands/wavedashes, etc. Just recently picked up on Fox's specific tech skills. It's really a world of difference how much more is required of him.

Anyways, hopefully I get to that 99%. I just spent the past couple of hours forcing myself to get used to the YBB variation and so far have about a 60-70% consistency. That's just in solo training mode though, with no opponents. Guess it's just something I'm gonna have to keep practicing for a while. I'm pretty consistent with all of his other basic techs though, so there's that, whew.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

80% of the posts on this board are people asking how to shdl LOL. There must be at least a 100 threads dedicated to this and countless posts about it on the advice thread =/. SHDL is a completely separate skill from shot hopping. In other words you don't need one to execute the other. In the countless shdl posts I've read someone compared the hand motion for it to the motion of striking a lighter. Just flick your thumb from Y/X to B in one motion and then tap B a second time. Don't lift your thumb off the jump button either. So for example if youre using X just hit X and slide over to the B-button with the flick motion. It's totally fine if you press A along the way it won't make a difference. I press A every time I SHDL as a result of sliding from x to b. Don't think of this technique has a shot hop, then pressing b. It's just one flick/slide across the buttons.

SHDL is a very overrated technique in terms of difficulty IMO and anyone can do it once they understand the process. imo short hopping is harder than shdl.

 

[HalcyonDays]

80% of the posts on this board are people asking how to shdl LOL. There must be at least a 100 threads dedicated to this and countless posts about it on the advice thread =/. SHDL is a completely separate skill from shot hopping. In other words you don't need one to execute the other. In the countless shdl posts I've read someone compared the hand motion for it to the motion of striking a lighter. Just flick your thumb from Y/X to B in one motion and then tap B a second time. Don't lift your thumb off the jump button either. So for example if youre using X just hit X and slide over to the B-button with the flick motion. It's totally fine if you press A along the way it won't make a difference. I press A every time I SHDL as a result of sliding from x to b. Don't think of this technique has a shot hop, then pressing b. It's just one flick/slide across the buttons.

SHDL is a very overrated technique in terms of difficulty IMO and anyone can do it once they understand the process. imo short hopping is harder than shdl.

Yeah, the "lighter" method was pretty much what got me able to do the technique with some consistency. Honestly though, for newer Fox players, I feel like SHDL, multishines, etc are probably the most grind-iest things to practice in terms of Fox tech. It may be a simple concept, but I wouldn't necessarily call it 'user-friendly.' Same goes with getting consistent short hops to the aerial of your choice.

If there was one thing I'd change about Melee Fox, it'd probably be the leniency, or lack thereof, of his short hop frame windows. A 2-frame window for something that'll probably be done dozens if not a few hundred times in a single match is rather extreme, in my opinion. But yeah, I might as well stop complaining and just get used to it. Not like Melee will be receiving any patches or anything.

Thanks for the tips though, seriously.

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

It is extreme, and it's part of why I love melee. Every character requires incredible and sustained precision =] The short hops will get easier in time.

 

[Stride]

One more thing:
Hold shield when you're doing short hop (double) laser. It stops you from accidentally doing standing lasers if you mess up the jump or the timing of the laser, since you'll just shield instead. However, if you don't mess up then the shied input won't do anything since inputting jump/shield on the same frame gives you a jump, and if your shield is already up then you can jump out instantly. There's no reason not to do it.

 

[Catchy]

One more thing:
Hold shield when you're doing short hop (double) laser. It stops you from accidentally doing standing lasers if you mess up the jump or the timing of the laser, since you'll just shield instead. However, if you don't mess up then the shied input won't do anything since inputting jump/shield on the same frame gives you a jump, and if your shield is already up then you can jump out instantly. There's no reason not to do it.

You wouldn't want to full press though right? You could tech locked?

 

[Stride]

You wouldn't want to full press though right? You could tech locked?

Yes; you should be lightshielding. It will rarely make a difference in practice though; you wouldn't be able to tech for 40 frames after hard pressing shield, but you shouldn't be starting your lasers from a position where you can get hit so quickly and 40 frames isn't particularly long anyway (1 SHDL takes 28 frames). I find that pressing the trigger down fully leaves my hands in a slightly less comfortable position, so I've always lightshielded intuitively.

I've noticed that I've occasionally accidentally transitioned from a light press to a hard press during the jump and caused an airdodge, so that's something to be aware of (although many people probably won't have that issue).

 

[YellowTorpedo]

I've tried the shoulder button method and it works nicely for doing shdls in place, but I feel like it doesn't work very well for moving lasers since you end up rolling half the time. But maybe I'm just bad.

 

[Arctic_]

pro tip for doing a shdl is you jump then press b twice rofl

careful you don't break your fingers there hax money

 

[x412]

The issue I had initially is that I wasn't pressing B fast enough right after the initial jump. That's the only reason why a second laser will not come out. I use the flick up control stick method and have no issues with moving. You can do it while running and stuff but I do have a hard time with a second laser if i'm running away and then trying to reverse SHDL. But that's just more practice. The Y -> B method puts too much strain for me which is why I do the other method.

 

[Snorlaxes]

I'd love to hear opposing reasoning to this, but I can't think of much use for reverse SHDL or running SHDL. While they can certainly save a few frames here and there, it seems to me that if you're in need of that extra time, you probably shouldn't be lasering in the first place.

Their best use seems to be against floaties and characters that are averse to approaching (Marth and Sheik come to mind) and require a solid amount of space between you and the opponent to begin with.

Maybe someone can point out a flaw in my thinking, but Mew2King's use of SHDL, i.e. usually stationary, seems to get him all the needed benefits while still being easy enough to execute such that they can be very consistent. I think that the time spent learning to reverse or move with SHDL would be better spent on consistency and cutting down time between jumps.

 

[7upjawa]

As someone who can now do it 100%, with the y button, I can safely say that it is the one of hardest things to learn, but once you learn it it is easy. You have to do it a lot over and over for like a week or so straight, and then you will be able to do it. After that its all about learning to do it while going backwards and forwards consistently while implementing it into your game. Don't be afraid, I remember being super intimidated by it and not being able to do it at all, but it came with time, practice and effor. The input is literally just . I kinda hit the button, slide down and bounce on the B button. I could never do it with the control stick, so even though alot of people claim that its easier, it varies by person. Good luck pilot!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'd love to hear opposing reasoning to this, but I can't think of much use for reverse SHDL or running SHDL. While they can certainly save a few frames here and there, it seems to me that if you're in need of that extra time, you probably shouldn't be lasering in the first place.

This is how you transition from pressure to lasering.

Dash away from opponent (creating space) -> jump -> reverse SHDL. An alternate to it is dash away -> pivot -> SHDL. Though I think Leffen usually just does dash away -> jump -> SHL -> standing SHDL.