How good would Zelda be with her Brawl frame data and PM's Din's fire?

[Roy of Pharae]

I miss being able to throw out lightning kicks and her down tilt causing people to trip was amazing.

 

[BJN39]

She would be bad.

The only true differences for frame data between Brawl and SSB4 are LKs, Grabs, Utilt, and FW, and I suppose Fsmash/Usmash. Three of those would be semi-nerfs. (Grabs would grab slower, but end quicker. Utilt would be slow as hex again, and FW would once again have three years of startup, in trade for a few frames less endlag.)

You were probably just thinking of LKs when you say frame data, but it's not a good tradeoff because Brawl LKs were terrible even with the frame data, so I don't see how that would fundamentally help them unless more was done.

Also, frame data has nothing to do with the old Brawl Dtilt trip lock. (At least, your phrasing leads me to believe that's what you were suggesting?) That was due to its old hit angle, and Brawl's tripping on hit design. Technically her Dtilt still has a 40% trip rate that goes completely unused now due to mechanic changes.

P:M Din's Fire would probably help a little. But certainly not enough to make her a real threat. Whether you meant the mine setting from PM 3.02 and back, or the 3.5 until now single set/return Din's Fire, neither was able to bring Zelda out of lower tier IN PROJECT M.

 

[Darktundra]

She would be bad.

The only true differences for frame data between Brawl and SSB4 are LKs, Grabs, Utilt, and FW, and I suppose Fsmash/Usmash. Three of those would be semi-nerfs. (Grabs would grab slower, but end quicker. Utilt would be slow as hex again, and FW would once again have three years of startup, in trade for a few frames less endlag.)

You were probably just thinking of LKs when you say frame data, but it's not a good tradeoff because Brawl LKs were terrible even with the frame data, so I don't see how that would fundamentally help them unless more was done.

Also, frame data has nothing to do with the old Brawl Dtilt trip lock. (At least, your phrasing leads me to believe that's what you were suggesting?) That was due to its old hit angle, and Brawl's tripping on hit design. Technically her Dtilt still has a 40% trip rate that goes completely unused now due to mechanic changes.

P:M Din's Fire would probably help a little. But certainly not enough to make her a real threat. Whether you meant the mine setting from PM 3.02 and back, or the 3.5 until now single set/return Din's Fire, neither was able to bring Zelda out of lower tier IN PROJECT M.

When he was implying frame data, he was meaning no changes to the smash 4 moves except start up and endlag. The only move he changed was Din's Fire

 

[BJN39]

When he was implying frame data, he was meaning no changes to the smash 4 moves except start up and endlag. The only move he changed was Din's Fire

I know exactly what he meant, and I'm saying that having Brawl frame data would be a lukewarm tradeoff.

 

[Darktundra]

Its a double edged tradeoff because our specials (except Din's Fire) are not as viable. In exchange we are granted a better neutral, more reliable air game, and a reliable projectile.
F-smash has 16 frames of endlag over 26 frames
Lightning kicks are worth using 22 landing lag
U-air became more useless 25 landing lag
Nair just became a god sent 12 landing lag
Up Smash is frame 6 again
Down smash is frame 4
Up tilt is now useless because it has no power
Elevator is useless
Its a bad tradeoff in the way that we would have to create a new meta.
There are some moves that should have brawl frame data
Lightning kicks
Nair
Din's Fire
D-tilt 20 IASA chains
Down Smash
Up smash
Forward Smash
Grabs
These are the move that would improve and not harm Zelda. IMO, she would be mid-tier with these buffs

 

[Rickster]

Well, we would get
- less laggy Smashes and 1 frame faster Dsmash(a "meh" tradeoff)
- Lagless Nair would be nice (good)
- Kicks would be good BUT they have to keep the sweetspots positioned where they are in Smash 4 (maybe)
-Super slow Utilt, so we lose a combo option/safeish move for a KO move (no)
- an even slower grab (NO)
- Farore's becomes trash (NO)
- Loss of the Elevator (NO)
- If you count movement speed as a sort of frame data we would be even slower (NO)

I think she would be worse off, overall. I was only taking into account the actual frame data, and not how the move works (for example Usmash will have the same hitboxes it does now just with Brawl's frame data).

The only thing I actually REALLY miss from Brawl is lagless Nair. That would be borderline broken in this game. I miss Fsmash a little too, but Smash 4's connects better and has a little more KBG so I'll take it.

 

[ZombieBran]

The frame data is a no.
But PM Din's is a giant yes. It would be better here because this isn't PM, where almost everyone has a godly movement option compared to this game where it's mostly just Sheik, Sonic, and Zamus who have that.

PM Din's, even the severely nerfed one in 3.5+, would actually force approaches and/or edgeguard because it hits more than 1/100s time. Coupled with Phantom for spacing and Zelda would have a (subpar) gameplan that functions.

 

[AncientCode42]

I'm not too knowledgeable on frame data, but from what I've seen Zelda's Brawl frame data was awful. I don't think that would help in any instance. The only benefit she would gain is less laggy LK, SH lightning kicks and an amazing Up and down smashes.

She would lose her amazing recovery, great u-tilt, get an even SLOWER grab and get her even worse mobility.

However. Her Project M Dins Fire would be wonderful, it would improve Zelda's range, projectile and zoning game. (How I wish we had that so much. )

 

[Rebel13]

Brawl Zelda had a very different moveset in some ways. In sm4sh we juggle with utilt and kill with upsmash, in brawl we did the opposite. Brawl Zelda had better smashes and aerials, sm4sh better tilts and specials. Just get used to it. Her frame data is always mediocre

 

[Meek Moths]

LISTEN,

if Zelda kept her Brawl Din, she would be a better character. The difference between brawl and snash 4 din is that in Brawl, you can detonate it straight away, whereas in smash 4 you have to wait until it travels a little.

This is a huge nerf actually, because the old brawl din would be a great frame trap in smash4. When you use it on someone who is near you and in the air, they must airdodge it and suffer airdodge lag on the ground.

The current din can do this too, but because it always travels a set distance before you detonate it, you can't punish it as easily.

If we had old brawl din, they would land right next to us.

I Sakurai knew this so that's why he changed din to not work like that anymore.

 

[Rebel13]

@ Meek Moths That's really interesting, I had not thought of that before. However, I really can't see that utility being broken in any way, so it's just annoying that Sakurai decided to prematurely limit Dins, even though it has NEVER been a good move (except PM)

Reminds me of a thing on the Samus boards where they discovered the reveal trailer showed much less startup/endlag on her missles. It's like the game went through a final edit where they made everything garbage, just so they could buff it later? Makes me wonder if they tested brawl Dins at all.

 

[Meek Moths]

@ Meek Moths I really can't see that utility being broken in any way, so it's just annoying that Sakurai decided to prematurely limit Dins, even though it has NEVER been a good move (except PM)

i know right?

at least it's better than pk flash and pk freeze, which is basically the same but with different trajectories

 

[AncientCode42]

@ Meek Moths That's really interesting, I had not thought of that before. However, I really can't see that utility being broken in any way, so it's just annoying that Sakurai decided to prematurely limit Dins, even though it has NEVER been a good move (except PM)

Reminds me of a thing on the Samus boards where they discovered the reveal trailer showed much less startup/endlag on her missles. It's like the game went through a final edit where they made everything garbage, just so they could buff it later? Makes me wonder if they tested brawl Dins at all.

I question a lot of design choices they've made to characters like Zelda and Samus in SSB4. I mean why nerf things of them just to buff them later? That's such a questionable choice. I also don't get the mindset behind free-fall Dins either. While Zelda has positives, to get rid of her smashes and SH hair and fair? Though I do think Zelda's slightly better than Brawl regardless.

 

[Brinzy]

Personally I just wish PM Zelda was the official Zelda. Many Zelda players hate the way she is designed in PM, saying "it's not Zelda." I guess Zelda having lagless options isn't really like Zelda.

I've been playing a lot of Melee, and one thing I miss in Sm4sh that I can do in Melee is teleport at downward angles reliably. I hate that I have to max range it to snap the ledge in Sm4sh when in Melee it snapped no matter the distance. I also hate how I can't teleport into the ground directly without the teleport going the entire distance. Of course, it's an infinitely better move in Sm4sh, but it's still got some annoying properties.

That's why I think ultimately making it like PM Farore's would be the best option, namely being able to cut it short for no hitbox and nearly no lag if you reappear on the ground. It's not as predictable as one might think, because you cut the teleport short on your terms and your opponent may not be able to react to exactly where you'll be in time. Of course, the hitboxes would have to work just like Sm4sh, because that's how badly she'd need the buff.

Having that, along with PM Din's and Nayru's, would go a long way for her. @ BJN39 is correct about how PM Din's didn't pull her out of low tier there, but having those specials in Sm4sh, while not perfect, would be steps in the right direction, IMO. I would probably not consider her bad if she had those abilities, because together they'd give her

- approach
- speed
- better trapping
- more recovery options
- more reliable "combo breaking" via Nayru's overlapping intangiblity and hitbox frame

Seems like Nintendo is onto the same idea as me in some regards already by buffing the damage on her Jab and dtilt. I always thought she did ridiculously low damage for a glass cannon on some of her moves. Right now, I think Zelda's biggest problem, which defines Zelda to begin with, is her lack of an offensive presence, A lot of her strengths are locked behind a playstyle that she can't reasonably force, because all of her specials are incredibly laggy and situational at best, and she's simply too slow otherwise. PM specials help answer all of these, and I'd definitely say that taking PM specials and giving them to Zelda in Sm4sh would make her a lot better.

 

[Meek Moths]

I've been playing a lot of Melee, and one thing I miss in Sm4sh that I can do in Melee is teleport at downward angles reliably. I hate that I have to max range it to snap the ledge in Sm4sh when in Melee it snapped no matter the distance.

you can still do this.

you just have to let go of the control stick right after you disappear.

 

[Brinzy]

you can still do this.

you just have to let go of the control stick right after you disappear.

Really now...

I would test it if I wasn't too lazy to plug in my Wii U.

So does this also apply to teleporting straight down on the stage? Like would it prevent me from sliding left or right?

 

[Meek Moths]

Really now...

I would test it if I wasn't too lazy to plug in my Wii U.

So does this also apply to teleporting straight down on the stage? Like would it prevent me from sliding left or right?

nope, it doesn't work like that, but i know a vid which will explain it, maybe you've already seen it

basically, when you hold down while using any characters up-b, you will go past the ledge, and same thing happens when you teleport down towards do ledge, because you are still holding down. you have to reset the control stick and zelda will touch the ledge.