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How do I escape the Side B into Dtilt?

Illuvial

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I see players who can get out of that 100% consistently against my Ganon by using wake-up attacks or rolling as soon as they hit the ground or just before I get a chance to use Dtilt. At first I figured it was just certain characters, but when I play against Ganon I almost NEVER seem to escape it, even if I use the characters other use when escaping my Dtilt follow-up

What gives?
 

Vermanubis

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Teching it just takes timing. Press R soon as you hit the ground and you should roll.
 

GroundZero996

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I see players who can get out of that 100% consistently against my Ganon by using wake-up attacks or rolling as soon as they hit the ground or just before I get a chance to use Dtilt. At first I figured it was just certain characters, but when I play against Ganon I almost NEVER seem to escape it, even if I use the characters other use when escaping my Dtilt follow-up

What gives?
You just hold a direction when you hit the ground or spam your get up attack. I don't think you can actually "tech" out of Flame Choke. A good Ganondorf can read your getups if you don't mix them up often though, so keep that in mind. I love it when people roll because I can either do a dash/ turn-around grab or a pivot tilt. If they roll behind me I don't even need to dash to get the Tilt follow up.
 

Vermanubis

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It's definitely techable. Don't quote me on this, but I think quick characters like Sheik can actually punish choke on neutral tech > jab.
 

Ray_Kalm

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It's definitely techable. Don't quote me on this, but I think quick characters like Sheik can actually punish choke on neutral tech > jab.
Some characters can certainly punish Ganon out choke.
 
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G.D.

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From what I've seen, many if not all characters can definitely tech out of it. As far as I know, there hasn't been an in-depth study on the different characters' responses to choking. I would assume you probably just need the right timing.

(Ugh. Even a CPU Sheik managed to punish me out of choke, once. Why is this a thing.)
 

GroundZero996

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From what I've seen, many if not all characters can definitely tech out of it. As far as I know, there hasn't been an in-depth study on the different characters' responses to choking. I would assume you probably just need the right timing.

(Ugh. Even a CPU Sheik managed to punish me out of choke, once. Why is this a thing.)
I don't know why you are surprised a CPU could do it? CPUs in this game have a knack for stupidly perfect timing.
 

G.D.

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I don't know why you are surprised a CPU could do it? CPUs in this game have a knack for stupidly perfect timing.
You mistake my surprise for annoyance. I'm annoyed that it's possible to tech out of a move like this... I mean, in Brawl, choking was a huge part of Ganon's mindgames.
 

GroundZero996

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You mistake my surprise for annoyance. I'm annoyed that it's possible to tech out of a move like this... I mean, in Brawl, choking was a huge part of Ganon's mindgames.
I don't think that this means it's not. You just have to account for the tech as an option, no? A suppose a few character might be able to jab after teching, but most of those characters are the faster types that are pretty hard to catch with that move anyway.
 

G.D.

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I don't think that this means it's not. You just have to account for the tech as an option, no? A suppose a few character might be able to jab after teching, but most of those characters are the faster types that are pretty hard to catch with that move anyway.
Ganon's harder foes--the faster ones, which usually have fast jabs--are the ones he needs advantages against the most. Even if his sideB is hard to land, in Brawl it made all the speed of his greatest foes useless once it hit. The mindgames it created practically defined more than a few good Ganondorf players, and made it an excellent choice against many of his biggest counters, including those faster types that are "pretty hard to catch."

The key moves of who was bottom tier has--for no good reason--become literally useless against Sheik, who is shaping up to be one of the overall strongest threats in the new metagame. Heaven knows it was a godsend against that slippery sucker in the last game.

tl;dr--It's an undeserved and unfortunate nerf, and there's no doubt about that.
 

Ray_Kalm

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Ganon's harder foes--the faster ones, which usually have fast jabs--are the ones he needs advantages against the most. Even if his sideB is hard to land, in Brawl it made all the speed of his greatest foes useless once it hit. The mindgames it created practically defined more than a few good Ganondorf players, and made it an excellent choice against many of his biggest counters, including those faster types that are "pretty hard to catch."

The key moves of who was bottom tier has--for no good reason--become literally useless against Sheik, who is shaping up to be one of the overall strongest threats in the new metagame. Heaven knows it was a godsend against that slippery sucker in the last game.

tl;dr--It's an undeserved and unfortunate nerf, and there's no doubt about that.
You're right. Almost. Brawl revolved more around special moves, and Sm4sh seems to revolve much more around physical moves - where Ganon got massive buffs.

I don't think Ganon is as hurt by this as he may seem, in Brawl you'd have to get at least 4 or 5 chokes per stock for them to come to use, but in Sm4sh you only need around the 2 mark per stock if you don't get a follow up, and just 1 per stock if you do get a follow up.

I don't think Ganon is hurt bad by this at all. If he's hurt by anything, it's how nerfed of a move dair has become.
 

GroundZero996

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Ganon's harder foes--the faster ones, which usually have fast jabs--are the ones he needs advantages against the most. Even if his sideB is hard to land, in Brawl it made all the speed of his greatest foes useless once it hit. The mindgames it created practically defined more than a few good Ganondorf players, and made it an excellent choice against many of his biggest counters, including those faster types that are "pretty hard to catch."

The key moves of who was bottom tier has--for no good reason--become literally useless against Sheik, who is shaping up to be one of the overall strongest threats in the new metagame. Heaven knows it was a godsend against that slippery sucker in the last game.

tl;dr--It's an undeserved and unfortunate nerf, and there's no doubt about that.
I don't know that I agree with this. Sure It sucks, but Ganon's Down B and F Tilt are both really strong against these fast character types. I feel like a whiff on Side B is so much more punishable than either of these moves, especially since USmash links into F Tilt to cover for air options and he can even do that out of a dash. His biggest problem is excessive projectile spam IMO. I really wish WizKick/ Should Bash bypassed more projectiles.

I don't think Ganon is hurt bad by this at all. If he's hurt by anything, it's how nerfed of a move dair has become.
How is Dair nerfed? Feels better than his Brawl incarnation.
 
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Lord P Wallington

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I see players who can get out of that 100% consistently against my Ganon by using wake-up attacks or rolling as soon as they hit the ground or just before I get a chance to use Dtilt. At first I figured it was just certain characters, but when I play against Ganon I almost NEVER seem to escape it, even if I use the characters other use when escaping my Dtilt follow-up

What gives?
Practice techs with a friend. Get it into muscle memory.
 

Xinc

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I don't know that I agree with this. Sure It sucks, but Ganon's Down B and F Tilt are both really strong against these fast character types. I feel like a whiff on Side B is so much more punishable than either of these moves, especially since USmash links into F Tilt to cover for air options and he can even do that out of a dash. His biggest problem is excessive projectile spam IMO. I really wish WizKick/ Should Bash bypassed more projectiles.



How is Dair nerfed? Feels better than his Brawl incarnation.
Dair doesn't kill as early anymore is the most noticeable one. Also you can't short hop autocancel dair anymore, which weakens its viability.
 

ChillySundance

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also, talking about Dair, it's a spike and spikes in this game can be teched even by standing targets, which eliminates most combo opportunities and makes it punishable even if it hits.
 

jahkzheng

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It's true. If I could change one thing for Ganondorf, but only one thing... it would be giving him his dair back. I loved choke too as it was, but the increased damage is nice and having faster dairs would help at least give an option on tech rollers. Say an opponent tech rolls toward you after choke. The faster dair of old would punish at best or pressure at worst, even on fast characters. If they shielded you just hop around them so your always on their weak side until they decide to roll, then you can try for another choke maybe. A tech roll away out of choke... I guess a follow up choke is too slow for that though? Seems teching in is the preference and if AC dairs were back it wouldn't make it such a great option. As it stands, trying to punish a tech in with a dair is a shield away from you getting punished. Not sure, but there may be some characters fast enough to punish you after a tech before you could even jump, regardless of whether AC dairs were a thing still.

Still, I miss that dair moreso than I miss untechable chokes I have to admit. At least the choke got a buff in other ways, and with how even earlier Ganon kills now, untechable chokes could be a death sentence... (that I wouldn't mind Ganon being able to give). Techs are readable too, if not so easily punishable obviously. So it's not like there's no options.

And yeah, I know you can equip Ganon's with custom equipment that gives him his AC dair back, but I don't want to develop habits for Ganon I can't apply everywhere or at least most places. If I learn to use a custom Ganon with AC dairs, it'll really screw with how I play online or where standard rules apply. I believe custom moves could be found in some tournies, but custom equipment I doubt will ever have acceptance in such places for obvious reasons.... too messy.
 

Shogger

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You can guarantee your safety if you tech once he throws you to the ground (press the shield button 20 or fewer frames before you hit the ground.) If you tech away or into him he can't likely punish you for that. If you tech in place you can sometimes even punish him with a fast attack.

If you do not tech, then whether or not you get hit by Dtilt depends on what character you are playing. Generally bigger characters have more followups for flame choke, so unless you're playing someone who Ganondorf doesn't have a guaranteed followup on (don't remember off the top of my head), you're taking the Dtilt unless the Ganondorf player misses the input by a few frames.
 

yiggs

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lol, newbie here. I know what a techroll is, I play tekken, but everyone is saying "just techroll" but no one has said what the command is.

I'm by no means have much knowledge to offer here, but I've had random success avoiding the d-tilt follow up by rolling the stick..
 
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Arrei

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lol, newbie here. I know what a techroll is, I play tekken, but everyone is saying "just techroll" but no one has said what the command is.
Teching it just takes timing. Press R soon as you hit the ground and you should roll.

Also on this topic, I have to wonder, is it lag that determines whether or not a get up attack will hit before the Dtilt? While online it seems like I'm always able to land the Dtilt against certain opponents while I'll catch the get up invincibility frames against other players, and the same inconsistency applies when I get Choked myself.
 
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Vermanubis

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Some characters can dodge all follow-ups altogether. Falcon, Marth, Rosalina and Sheik to name a few.
 

Xinc

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Some characters can dodge all follow-ups altogether. Falcon, Marth, Rosalina and Sheik to name a few.
It's important to note they have to make an input immediately still though. They can still victim to down tilt if they don't react
 

DakotaBonez

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It would seem that some characters are able to do a get up attack after Ganon's flame choke, thus giving them invincibility and dealing damage to a Ganon that tries to follow up with a down tilt. Unfortunately, it would seem that Fox is unable to do a get up attack before Ganon's down tilt comes out.
Or am I just not mashing hard enough with Fox?
 
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adom4

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