How can a Noob become a high level Player in Brawl?

[Benjamin Linus]

As a melee player for about 2 years i have found my progression to be very rapid. Starting last year i began to play melee competitively and started on my way out of noobdom. Over the past year i have become a pretty technical player and decent player in NYC.

In brawl i often hear people saying anyone can get good. im not exactly sure this is true. i believe that in brawl its actually much harder to reach a higher level of play then in melee. right now i suck in brawl, i think because of my lack of understanding and knowledge of the game. i think it will take me alot longer to get good.

this is intended to incite debate, no dumb posts please.

 

[Yuna]

A n00b stops being a n00b once he learns how to play the game "properly"... not just how to do it but also being able to do it.

It doesn't matter if Brawl has less universal techs, you still need to learn the game, how your character(s) work, how all the other characters work and how your character(s) work against all the other characters, including also your own character(s) (dittos).

Also, Brawl has many character-specific glitches and techniques. No, even if the game is easier to play on a technical level, it still require dedication, time, training and skill to become good.

Not everyone can become a good Brawl player.

 

[Spartan1841]

When they stop being n00b.
Anyone can get good in melee or brawl

 

[Zodiac]

A n00b stops being a n00b once he learns how to play the game "properly"... not just how to do it but also being able to do it.

It doesn't matter if Brawl has less universal techs, you still need to learn the game, how your character(s) work, how all the other characters work and how your character(s) work against all the other characters, including also your own character(s) (dittos).

Also, Brawl has many character-specific glitches and techniques. No, even if the game is easier to play on a technical level, it still require dedication, time, training and skill to become good.

Not everyone can become a good Brawl player.

This is a good post, I was terrible, utterly horrible at brawl until I started playing it "like brawl" I can now play melee and brawl in one sitting and notice the immense difference in my playstyles between the two games. Now That I found out how to play brawl Im not so bad.

True, not everyone can be good at brawl, but yes, its easier to be good at brawl.

 

[InvincibleAgent]

Everyone's a noob once, it's scrubdom you've got to watch out for.

 

[Bud]

yes, we are all noobs in brawl.

 

[momochuu]

I thought I was really good until I played online for the first time.

That was a while ago, and now I think I've left n00b status.

 

[Best101]

Compared to everyone else I'm pretty good in Brawl. I've learned most of it's advance techniques in a day or so (I'm still not perfect with them like I am in Melee). Aside from learning the characters I can easily say that this is the easiest game I have played since I've started gaming next to Twilight Princess.

 

[RBNuke]

I honestly think brawl does require a bit more memorization than melee. Of course, I mostly play Lucario, who's lack of speed and obnoxious 3-second long billion-hotbox'd attacks leaves him a bit more reliant on mindgames than some. I find that each and every character is a completely different game to fight.

I mean, Ike can be chain-grabbed 3-5 times without pushing your luck, and has very specific(albeit easy) methods to gimp his recovery. He's devastating if you don't know the first few frames of animation on every attack and the timing to counter them, but he's the weakest character in the game if you have him down. Snake can be grabbed closer to 8 times, the most of any character besides maybe bowser, is considerably more terrifying if you're in the wrong spot in the air, and has grabs that you need to respond to differently from any characters' in the game lest you east one of his devastating tilts that no other character has anything quite like. Oh, and these two and squirtle and g&w are probably the ones whos' jabs you want to look out for above anyone else's.

If you try to use *any* of the tactics you used against those two against game & watch, though, you're going to get destroyed. His attacks are all longer in duration. Every character has a different way to respond to turtle spam. This is a lot to remember in a fight, and this is just an extremely shallow rundown on 1/10th of the roster. I find myself able to steamroll certain characters I'm practiced against, but every time I run into a character I'm unfamiliar with, I am almost guaranteed to lose the first fight at the least if they've played lucario before.

For chaingrabbing, a lot of characters have at least one, but for most of these characters the chain grab only works for a very specific number of times vs. specific characters. There are charts. So many charts... 0_o

Um, long post made short: I concur.

 

[Yuna]

Stuff

The same can be said about Melee. Watch Peach play against Fox, Falco, Marth and Sheik. Completely different tactics. It's called being versatile because certain characters require different approaches, pressure and combos.

 

[Benjamin Linus]

A n00b stops being a n00b once he learns how to play the game "properly"... not just how to do it but also being able to do it.

It doesn't matter if Brawl has less universal techs, you still need to learn the game, how your character(s) work, how all the other characters work and how your character(s) work against all the other characters, including also your own character(s) (dittos).

Also, Brawl has many character-specific glitches and techniques. No, even if the game is easier to play on a technical level, it still require dedication, time, training and skill to become good.

Not everyone can become a good Brawl player.

maybe what i wrote was misunderstood a little. noob is probably not the right word. i meant to say i believe its harder for people who are just entering competitive tourneys, to eventually get better because now that the game is mainly mindgame based it takes a lot longer to achieve.

in melee one could work hard on there tech skill and slowly ease out of roll dodging and other mistakes and get better at a decent rate. with brawl because there is no such thing i think it will take long amounts of time to get to tourney level because the people you will play against will have so much more experience that you must make up for. and pretty much the only way to do so is to continuously go to the tourneies.

 

[FeArTeHsMaSh]

maybe what i wrote was misunderstood a little. noob is probably not the right word. i meant to say i believe its harder for people who are just entering competitive tourneys, to eventually get better because now that the game is mainly mindgame based it takes a lot longer to achieve.

in melee one could work hard on there tech skill and slowly ease out of roll dodging and other mistakes and get better at a decent rate. with brawl because there is no such thing i think it will take long amounts of time to get to tourney level because the people you will play against will have so much more experience that you must make up for. and pretty much the only way to do so is to continuously go to the tourneies.

Brawl does not necessarily take more mind games than Melee, especially at top level play. Its as if most people assume that since Brawl is slower and less technical, it must automatically compensate by having more mind games. This is false.

Logically, mind games are always more important in faster games like Melee, for the effect is instant, and the opponent has less time to react, testing his or her skill level to the utmost level. Slow the game down like Brawl, and one has more time to react and decide, and more options to choose since the punishment for falling to a mind game isn't as heavy as it is in Melee.

Anyways back on topic.

Any newbie can become good at Brawl if you practice enough. If you mean become a top player, than the odds are rather thin. Usually, a certain mindset is required to achieve such ranks, no matter how much you practice. However, if a newbie is willing to practice 8+ hours a day, then there is no doubt that he will become a top player, especially since his muscle memory will become so instinctive.

 

[gorgon.]

I believe that any person is able to become good ar Brawl, but not everyone is willing to.

Becoming good at any game requires practice, knowledge, and dedication. By investing these things, and more, anyone is able to become good at Brawl. However, many people who want to become good aren't willing to spend enough time with Brawl. Even if you are the noobiest noob, you are able to become good at Brawl; but only if you really want to. You can't expect to be considered good just by learning a few techs.

Another thing; you can't become good if you have the brain of a scrub. You can't whine about cheap things, john, or ever think the word "unfair." You have to be able to accept your mistakes and correct them.

Anyone is able to become good at Brawl, but some who want to become good aren't willing to spend enough time to do so.

 

[RBNuke]

The same can be said about Melee. Watch Peach play against Fox, Falco, Marth and Sheik

True. However, I still believe that quantity alone has made the list of 'crap to memorize' somewhat longer. Even ignoring that, though, the new knockback system has confounded it further.

Melee certainly did require character strategies, but there is absolutely more to memorize here. Which was my original point. I apologize if I wandered in getting there.

 

[EmuKiller]

the way to become better is to play people. Real people. In person. And a variety of people. Basically just keep going to tournaments and play consistently and you'll get better, especially in Brawl. Brawl is mostly mindgames whether people accept it or not and the best way to be better at out thinking your opponent is to play consciously and to play a lot of different players. That's really all there is to it.

 

[Benjamin Linus]

Any newbie can become good at Brawl if you practice enough. If you mean become a top player, than the odds are rather thin. Usually, a certain mindset is required to achieve such ranks, no matter how much you practice. However, if a newbie is willing to practice 8+ hours a day, then there is no doubt that he will become a top player, especially since his muscle memory will become so instinctive.

that is completely incorrect. this posts makes me think you have not been to many tourneys or at least have not played many pro players. i play some every week.

no matter how much you practice, no matter how much knowledge of the game you have, without knowing what your opponent is going to do you cannot be better then a pro player. you cannot be a decent player in any competitive scene without this. in melee i would say the dividing line between tech skill and mindgames was 80% mindgames 20% tech skill. in brawl its certainly 95% mindgames 5% tech skill. your skill could be the full 5% and i garentee you that you will never beat bum in a match.

 

[Grunt]

A player's ability is limited by the speed of his fingers and his minds ability to control them...

...but when speed is not a factor...
...when theory becomes reality...

 

[Benjamin Linus]

A player's ability is limited by the speed of his fingers and his minds ability to control them...

...but when speed is not a factor...
...when theory becomes reality...

dont spam please. give me a valid argument.

 

[Grunt]

dont spam please. give me a valid argument.

?
i thought it was a pretty good point.
players are limited to the speed of their minds/fingers. so if someone can react faster overall, they will probably beat the slower player. training the reaction time of your mind is harder to do.

 

[Emperor Time]

Everyone can become good. However, everyone has a different limit that cannot usually be surpassed.

 

[Benjamin Linus]

?
i thought it was a pretty good point.
players are limited to the speed of their minds/fingers. so if someone can react faster overall, they will probably beat the slower player. training the reaction time of your mind is harder to do.

no you made a general statement that applies to almost any situation.

now your second statement is completely incorrect. i believe silent wolf is the fastest player in the smash community however he lost to hax and m2k in tourney. the reason is mindgames beat tech skill/speed.

 

[Grunt]

no you made a general statement that applies to almost any situation.

now your second statement is completely incorrect. i believe silent wolf is the fastest player in the smash community however he lost to hax and m2k in tourney. the reason is mindgames beat tech skill/speed.

You're missing the point. reaction time, mindgames, whatever it may be, there is a limit to how effective any one person can be at it. it's different for everyone. i'm sure it's possible to train yourself to become better at reaction / mindgames / whatever, but hard to do so.

the original line is a quote from Doodleman's Perfect control video, that's why i used it.

 

[Geist]

players are limited to the speed of their minds/fingers. so if someone can react faster overall, they will probably beat the slower player. training the reaction time of your mind is harder to do.

says the guy who set ganon as his main... ._.

seriously, at this point we all know brawl probably isn't going to get much faster, and its also obvious that playing intelligently is a key asset to any playing in brawl. The main problem with brawl at the moment is the skill gap between players. When brawl was being developed the creators intended to give good players and bad players an even playing ground, and they did a hell of a good job.

I've seen a very experienced smashers known for their intelligent play be beaten by a team of first-timer Ike who would randomly spam dash attacks in a tournament doubles match. I think that with brawl's new mechanics that there isn't that big skill gap that we saw going on with previous installments. A person who has never joined a tourney has a good chance of placing in a decent spot for a bunch of reasons, the big ones being:
A) Brawl is a new game with new mechanics and people who just pick it up aren't that behind experience-wise and
B) because of said skill gap from above.

lol sorry for this wall of text, I'm really bad for that.


SUMMARY FOR LAZY PEOPLE: I don't think that noobs will have a harder time in their first tourneys because we are basically all noobs at this point in time, and a noob isn't necessarily unable to play with intelligence simply because they are inexprienced at smash.

 

[Benjamin Linus]

You're missing the point. reaction time, mindgames, whatever it may be, there is a limit to how effective any one person can be at it. it's different for everyone. i'm sure it's possible to train yourself to become better at reaction / mindgames / whatever, but hard to do so.

the original line is a quote from Doodleman's Perfect control video, that's why i used it.

i know where that quote is from. and you are wrong again. it is almost literally impossible to be better then consistant tourney players by just practicing by yourself. clearly you dont understand what mindgames are and how you achieve them. no matter how fast you are, no matter how well you can react, you cannot beat a player who knows everything your gonna do.

SUMMARY FOR LAZY PEOPLE: I don't think that noobs will have a harder time in their first tourneys because we are basically all noobs at this point in time, and a noob isn't necessarily unable to play with intelligence simply because they are inexprienced at smash.

you were competely right except for this last part. the top players in most regions have already been decided. in nyc for example, it is clear the bum is the best, and it is clear who the other good players are. and you may play intelligently but if you cant properly predict your opponent it won't help you much.

 

[KoalaBear]

Same with kawaii

 

[ShengNu]

i second that ^

 

[Grunt]

i know where that quote is from. and you are wrong again. it is almost literally impossible to be better then consistant tourney players by just practicing by yourself. clearly you dont understand what mindgames are and how you achieve them. no matter how fast you are, no matter how well you can react, you cannot beat a player who knows everything your gonna do.

1. i never said anything about practicing alone. practice with pros for all i care.
2. Predicting =/= psychic. no one will always know everything you're gong to do.
3. Even if you play the most predictable way possible, or nearing random movements, there is still a mental barrier that some people cannot cross. some people cannot think fast enough to fool or outsmart their opponent. this is what would need training, by whatever means necessary.


Thank you for taking a completely viable discussion into a beleaguering argument.

 

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

1. i never said anything about practicing alone. practice with pros for all i care.
2. Predicting =/= psychic. no one will always know everything you're gong to do.
3. Even if you play the most predictable way possible, or nearing random movements, there is still a mental barrier that some people cannot cross. some people cannot think fast enough to fool or outsmart their opponent. this is what would need training, by whatever means necessary.


Thank you for taking a completely viable discussion into a beleaguering argument.

clearly you are not in the competitive smash scene lol.

just wonderin who is the best person you've ever played? is it your brother or somethin?

you dont have to be psychic to know everything someone is going to do. maybe its me thinking about melee, but if you do stupid stuff like random movesets your just askin to get gimped or severely punished.

play m2k or DJ nintendo then tell me they didnt know everything you were gonna do.

 

[Grunt]

if someone knew exactly what you were going to do, in any game, Pro vs noobs would always be 0-death and pro vs pro would be 0-0 for all 8 minutes.

you know exactly what you're opponents going to do, but your opponent changes his mind as to what he's going to do, which means you must expected that, so they change their plan, and in return you change yours and no one gets hit.

don't say "Well you predicted it, but there was nothing you could do." if you truly knew everything they were going to do, you would have predicted you would put yourself into a vulnerable position.

the argument that "Pros know everything you were going to do" is ridiculously false. They may be good, but not 100% correct.

the OP asked to what extent a noob can be good at brawl. i say it's to the extent at which one can think quickly and efficiently. How is that NOT true?

 

[KoalaBear]

eww to what extent sounds like AP US history DBQ

 

[Geist]

you were competely right except for this last part. the top players in most regions have already been decided. in nyc for example, it is clear the bum is the best, and it is clear who the other good players are. and you may play intelligently but if you cant properly predict your opponent it won't help you much.

I see what you mean, but I generally disclude people like bum because they are just too good. x] Its not just coincidence that an amazing melee player became an amazing brawl player. When I said a noob can play intelligently, I mean by means of rational thought and logic. A player with the experience of Bum is familiar with the game itself as well as having the intelligence to outsmart his opponent.

But to the average and higher competition, being pro/am, this rule of skill gaps is more likely to take effect, and skill levels for people familiar with smash are going to be lowered. We honestly have no idea how high the ceiling for brawl metagame potential is at this point, so measuring the true extent of how good an inexperienced player can be is very hard.

Edit: 500th post =0

 

[AmigoOne]

Any noob can be as good as they want to put dedication to it.

 

[shadowofchaos725]

A player's ability is limited by the speed of his fingers and his minds ability to control them...

...but when speed is not a factor...
...when theory becomes reality...

Err... I think I've heard that somewhere before... Like Superdoodleman's Zero Mercy Vids?

Anyway, for Brawl... By some people about what they mean saying "Anyone can become good in Brawl..." they mean spending the time playing and getting to know the feel of how to react to different situations within the game, such as playing "mindgames" and charging a smash right when characters like Ike prepare a counter....

It's really all a matter of experience and how you use that experience....

That's what I got from this discussion anyway....

 

[Benjamin Linus]

if someone knew exactly what you were going to do, in any game, Pro vs noobs would always be 0-death and pro vs pro would be 0-0 for all 8 minutes.

you know exactly what you're opponents going to do, but your opponent changes his mind as to what he's going to do, which means you must expected that, so they change their plan, and in return you change yours and no one gets hit.

don't say "Well you predicted it, but there was nothing you could do." if you truly knew everything they were going to do, you would have predicted you would put yourself into a vulnerable position.

the argument that "Pros know everything you were going to do" is ridiculously false. They may be good, but not 100% correct.

the OP asked to what extent a noob can be good at brawl. i say it's to the extent at which one can think quickly and efficiently. How is that NOT true?

now you are getting just literal. when i say pros know everything your going to do i dont really mean everything. i mean a majority of the time they can predict what your going to do and punish you for it. when your in an argument you should take every word technically.

the way you debate against this idea shows me you havent ever played a pro player or a top ranked player.

second if you noticed i clarified what this thread was about on the first page. what i said was in brawl it will take everyone who is not already pro a very long time to get to a tourney level standard. Because the game is heavily mindgame base you can only improve truely by playing the best people very often. thus it is much harder for a noob to become a pro.

 

[Wubblez]

I think anyone can become good, it's just that most won't take the time to work and become good. Sort of like an Instrument. Anyone has the ability to pick one up and learn to play it, but only does who dedicate themselves to it will ever be great at it.

It's hard. I plan on trying to get more competitive in Brawl over the summer and I expect to pretty much just get used to going to Tournaments rather than actually winning anything.