How About N64 ...

[yohoos]

But why wouldn't you just SH aerial cross up OoS instead? Or grab? It's also stationary, so if they see it coming, or if they're just spacing well or shielding, you miss and get ****ed. On top of that, this isn't what Falcon needs. I don't think Falcon needs much really, and I think this is crossing too far to the other side of balance to "something is non optimal. we should replace it with something else, not because it helps the characters problems, but because it would be nice in some situations". Too much focus on things that Falcon isn't intrinsically bad at.

I can't help but feel you are contradicting yourself here. First you say you don't think Falcon needs any major changes. Then you reject this proposed change because it doesn't change enough? I think this small change is something Falcon really needs to diversify his movepool and give him better options in certain situations if not to just get rid of glaringly bad move. I agree that Falcon doesn't need much because his Melee set is very powerful, and so far this proposal does not touch his Melee moveset AT ALL while adding some small benefits.

I also can't help but disagree with your logic in character design. What you have been saying recently has basically in my opinion been to give falcon the bare minimums. Literally, just take away all his ground moves he doesn't need them. Why did PM even bother boosting his Falcon Kick/recovery, he doesn't need them. Falcon is a really one dimensional character even with the little buffs he currently has and your way of thinking isn't helping that. An equivalent statement would be to literally delete Fox's entire moveset bar his Nair, his shine, and his UpB recovery because I mean those 3 moves cover everything a character would ever need right? In actuality that would probably also be the case for many characters. We could literally take away all but 3-4 of their moves and they would cover most if not all options, just not optimally. Now, why is it that PM does not do that? Because it's bad character design, because the characters would be very 1 dimensional and boring. Just because a character has a set of very viable moves does not justify that character having a set of dead moves along with it. Your faith in falcon's current moveset to deal with every situation is not wrong but it certainly isn't without flaw. Not that many people complained about it in Melee because the community had to deal with what they had. But now that the community has a voice in designing these characters it would be wrong to just let it pass when other redesigned characters are coming out with rather beautiful movesets.

 

[GeZ]

I just think that Falcon is currently very good. He could benefit from some changes, but I don't think he needs them as he has been proved time and again to still romp with the best characters. I also think that his Ftilt and Fsmash are his only useless moves. I don't know where you got that I'm in support of taking away characters moves because other things fill their niche. The way I articulated it was more so stating that I think Falcon wouldn't benefit from doubling up on solutions as the ones he has are really effective currently. His grounded moves besides Ftilt/ Fsmash all have their own uses already. I say we should let the metagame develop around Falcons new game and focus on subtle changes, like this proposed Usmash change for instance, to give him little bonus's in the places he needs them.

Also, to be fair, Falcon is famous for being the one trick pony character. Like, he's coined the one dimension and honed it into an art, which I'm actually fond of in this instance.

 

[TheKmanOfSmash]

Holy hell, bullet points. I am undone.

In all seriousness, you've convinced me on how it would be helpful to Falcon, but I think it may still be too stuffable. And, out of curiosity, how much larger is the range than grab? If it's not greatly so, then grab is one frame slower and leads to more options.

I know that OoS is not Falcon's forte, but for the character, it's a bit reduced in order of importance as Falcon is a character of spacing, pressure, and capitalization. A buff to his OoS options would be nice, but only so beneficial since optimally, that's a situation you spend very little time in.

Also, as a bit of an unrelated note, do you need a glass of water? You seem a bit aggressive in your arguing, but that might just be me. Good stuff in any case.

lol I'm fine. I just like debating sometimes

And I believe the horizontal range for 64 Up-smash is a bit larger than Melee Falcon's horizontal grab range (seeing that his vulnerable arm sticks out away from his body when he grabs). Here's Melee's grab range:

Here's Smash 64 Up-smash:

Also, I agree that this single change (Smash64 up-smash) does not radically improve Falcon as an overall character. Even with this change, he'll still be played in about the same way as before and other, more significant changes would have to be made in order to correct all of Falcon's flaws. However, when the PMBR tries to make positive tweeks (not necessarily "buffs", but it's fair to call Falcon's 64 Up-smash a buff) to an already established character design, they don't make the tweeks with the intention of doing a complete character overall, but they do so to help certain aspects of a character that may be lacking in certain areas so that the character is more balanced in nearly all aspects of play. Usually the character being "better" is just a side effect, not necessarily the intended goal. Balance is the goal. Or at least that's what they say... <.<

Of course some characters will be better at certain things that other characters (if everything was absolutely balanced, then every character would be the exact same, which is not fun), but what should matter in the end is that every character in P:M should at the very least have some kind of decent option for every situation in the game. And I just think 64 up-smash for Falcon could possibly do the job in the OoS game department.

 

[TheKmanOfSmash]

Whoops double post. I thought the first one didn't go through.

 

[GeZ]

That gnarly Uppercut is starting to grow on me. It could be a neat change. Now someone has to bring it up to a Backroomer, or hope someone notices this thread. If something hasn't happened by next tuesday, I'll bring it up to the P:M developer I know in town and see if he thinks it's feasible.

 

[WaffleDinosaur]

No

We will do nothing you described because...









Melee

Well you gave yoshi his n64 up tilt in project m, so what happened to "Melee" there?

 

[DMG]

Apparently Melee died to Yoshi's Utilt

 

[WaffleDinosaur]

Apparently Melee died to Yoshi's Utilt

I just want to know why you completely shut down the idea of giving falcon a n64 move swap but its ok that yoshi gets one, because telling us you wont do it because "Melee" doesn't really tell us much.

 

[DMG]

It's a joke. Peruse the forums for "No, because Melee".

 

[-Key-]

While I don't doubt for a second that catering PM Falcon to Melee Falcon players is a factor the PMBR considers heavily, I'm not sure that changing Usmash would ruffle anyone's feathers. It's not like Usmash is used with any sort of regularity in Melee. Changing Usmash would be akin to how PM Falcon was given the Brawl aerial Raptor Boost, and I don't see any Melee players complaining about that alteration (because it's so useful compared to Melee!).

 

[Strawhat09]

While I don't doubt for a second that catering PM Falcon to Melee Falcon players is a factor the PMBR considers heavily, I'm not sure that changing Usmash would ruffle anyone's feathers. It's not like Usmash is used with any sort of regularity in Melee. Changing Usmash would be akin to how PM Falcon was given the Brawl aerial Raptor Boost, and I don't see any Melee players complaining about that alteration (because it's so useful compared to Melee!).

Upsmash can be used as a followup to raptor boost on fast fallers at mid percent if raptor boost is not DIed

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Upsmash can be used as a followup to raptor boost on fast fallers at mid percent if raptor boost is not DIed

64 Usmash would do that a LOT better.

 

[Crescent Monkey]

Just wanted to throw it out there for anyone that thinks Falcon is "very good" that Falcon is actually not "very good" in PM. He's actually pretty terrible. Have you guys seen some of the other characters? Think about Metaknight, Diddy, Lucas, Wolf, Mario, Fox and Falco. Those characters are "very good". Falcon is a character who was known in Melee for being completely terrible, but then randomly 0 to death-ing the other character to stay in the game. Having to rely on 0 to death combos which are in no way easy or guaranteed, and 90% of the time having to jump offstage to the brink of death to finish those combos is not "very good". How often do you win the neutral game against a character like Metaknight? How good are your kill setups at high percentage compared to Diddy? How good is your low% game compared to Fox? Lets not even talk about projectiles. Falcon is bad, and the only reason I previously was advocating small changes is because the PMBR will not make drastic changes to a staple like Falcon, so we might as well focus on small changes that there is a chance they will implement, instead of dreaming so big and then being let down when they make more small changes. N64 U-Smash might help some, so might a better grab, and lower hitting jab, and less landlag on his upB, but the only reason you don't see people asking for bigger changes is because they won't happen, not because Falcon is "good".

 

[-Key-]

I tend to agree that Falcon's metagame doesn't really have room to grow and that the book is out on him at this point. Being poor at edgeguarding is a huge issue in PM, and his ability to combo is not as comparatively strong as it was in Melee. Some Falcon mains are able to represent him well despite these issues, but I have no issues with anyone calling him below-average.