How About N64 ...

[Orion92]

Dear PM developers, after playing some smash 64 I've come to the realization ... why not give Cap some of his moves from back then. For example, his foward smash or up-smash (which would be great for combos like it was back then). This would also seperate the "clone-ness" of him and Ganon.

Also, coulld the falcon pnch be cancel-able and/or make the raptor boost able to turn like the falcon punch?

 

[DMG]

No

We will do nothing you described because...









Melee

 

[Strawhat09]

Honestly, i would prefer the n64 forward smash over the people's elbow. Not only would it have more range, it would also set your opponents on fire...How cool is that?

 

[Nguz95]

Honestly, i would prefer the n64 forward smash over the people's elbow. Not only would it have more range, it would also set your opponents on fire...How cool is that?

But... The elbow sets people on fire too...
Unfortunately Cfal is easily one of the top 5 characters people don't want to see changed in any obvious way. That's why you see people whining about how the nair doesn't feel right when it's EXACTLY THE SAME! The only difference is that PM is full of heavier characters, so of course there isn't as much knockback in an average match. The whininess quotient keeps him where he is instead of giving him an opportunity to dominate and be as manly as a bounty hunter in spandex can be.

It's such a drag, because he deserves more.

 

[Kally Wally]

I'd be down for an up-tilt inspired by his N64 up-smash. Does anyone even use the axe kick?

 

[Strawhat09]

I'd be down for an up-tilt inspired by his N64 up-smash. Does anyone even use the axe kick?

It's still a viable move, imo

 

[Strawhat09]

But... The elbow sets people on fire too...
Unfortunately Cfal is easily one of the top 5 characters people don't want to see changed in any obvious way. That's why you see people whining about how the nair doesn't feel right when it's EXACTLY THE SAME! The only difference is that PM is full of heavier characters, so of course there isn't as much knockback in an average match. The whininess quotient keeps him where he is instead of giving him an opportunity to dominate and be as manly as a bounty hunter in spandex can be.

It's such a drag, because he deserves more.

I complain because his nair doesnt lead into a grab like it did in Melee...Crouch canceling is WAY TOO strong in project m and it shuts off Falcon entirely in most matchups. Also, you can't turn around nair as quickly as you could in melee which was such a useful technique. My complaints are not coming from thin air, trust me...I play with the best of Dallas constantly...None the less, I'm a die hard Falcon fan, and I'll keep using him because I consider him really fun to use.

 

[~Frozen~]

Crouch cancelling is the same as in Melee, however compared to Melee, a multitude of viable characters in PM are heavier than those you'd find in Melee. Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, and Peach have weights of 75, 82, 90, 87, and 90, respectively, which many characters in PM DWARF by comparison, such as Lucario (100), DK (116) or ROB (106). This MAY be why crouch cancelling "feels" stronger than it actually is.

 

[Kati]

First off, moveset suggestions simply aren't considered.

If they need to buff him though, the 64 smash is a great idea that many of us long for. Personally I thought his 64 up smash would have been the best new uptilt for Ganon, but I'm going to wait and see what 2.6 brings first before grumbling to myself.

Likewise, this "clone-ness" talk has to stop. They play differently enough, really all P:M characters are distinct enough thus far, and brawl provided new animations to differ them as well.

 

[Nguz95]

First off, moveset suggestions simply aren't considered.

If they need to buff him though, the 64 smash is a great idea that many of us long for. Personally I thought his 64 up smash would have been the best new uptilt for Ganon, but I'm going to wait and see what 2.6 brings first before grumbling to myself.

Likewise, this "clone-ness" talk has to stop. They play differently enough, really all P:M characters are distinct enough thus far, and brawl provided new animations to differ them as well.

Ganon's new up tilt is going to be sweet! I am going to have to try him again.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

But... The elbow sets people on fire too...
Unfortunately Cfal is easily one of the top 5 characters people don't want to see changed in any obvious way. That's why you see people whining about how the nair doesn't feel right when it's EXACTLY THE SAME! The only difference is that PM is full of heavier characters, so of course there isn't as much knockback in an average match. The whininess quotient keeps him where he is instead of giving him an opportunity to dominate and be as manly as a bounty hunter in spandex can be.

It's such a drag, because he deserves more.

I can't put my finger one exactly where buffs would be good for Falcon, other than removing the 10,000 frames of end lag from aerial raptor boost.

But if buffs can happen for Falcon, I'd like to see them happen.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

I complain because his nair doesnt lead into a grab like it did in Melee...Crouch canceling is WAY TOO strong in project m and it shuts off Falcon entirely in most matchups. Also, you can't turn around nair as quickly as you could in melee which was such a useful technique. My complaints are not coming from thin air, trust me...I play with the best of Dallas constantly...None the less, I'm a die hard Falcon fan, and I'll keep using him because I consider him really fun to use.

THANK YOU!!

I've been saying this for MONTHS.

Crouch cancelling isn't supposed to be this strong.

That **** needs to be fixed.

 

[MVP]

I'd be down for an up-tilt inspired by his N64 up-smash. Does anyone even use the axe kick?

melee up-tilt is great for edge-guarding and proves very viable

 

[Phaiyte]

Man I sure do love it when people talk about "clones" in this game that don't exist because it almost convinces me to try to figure what they're talking about and then I'm like oh yeah.

 

[Ezzee]

The biggest falcon move I want implemented from his n64 iteration is his nair. Falcon could really use a sex kick

 

[MVP]

The biggest falcon move I want implemented from his n64 iteration is his nair. Falcon could really use a sex kick

but his melee nair is better by far

 

[Viceversa96]

But... The elbow sets people on fire too...
Unfortunately Cfal is easily one of the top 5 characters people don't want to see changed in any obvious way. That's why you see people whining about how the nair doesn't feel right when it's EXACTLY THE SAME! The only difference is that PM is full of heavier characters, so of course there isn't as much knockback in an average match. The whininess quotient keeps him where he is instead of giving him an opportunity to dominate and be as manly as a bounty hunter in spandex can be.

It's such a drag, because he deserves more.

Noooooooo....noooooooo he is definitely not top 5. He needs buffs

 

[DarkFlame]

No

We will do nothing you described because...









Melee

What about when the developers gave Toon Link a bit of N64 Link's moveset? That was not completely Young Link from Melee. I know that yes, it was used to differentiate him more from Adult Link, but you could still do that with CF, and it would have the same effect, differentiating him from Ganondorf. Now, as for me, I do not play as CF much, I usually would probably just play as Ivysaur, Pit, perhaps Mewtwo now, so it does not really matter to me if you make him a tiny bit closer to his N64 counterpart or not, would be kinda cool to see, but it does not really matter to me either way.

 

[lag comp]

I just want his n64 voice back.

 

[Crescent Monkey]

I axe kick all the time. Its one of the most swag ways to intercept Phantasm and Illusion. It also gets Sheik when her Up-B will grab ledge before the poof.

 

[DarkFlame]

I just want his n64 voice back.

I do not know how it would be possible to get his N64 voice back while still keeping it as high-quality as the Wii voices.

 

[Player -0]

I think that SSB64 Falcon F-Smash would be awesome.
It would further differentiate from Ganon and just be really awesome.

 

[Mr.Random]

Dear PM developers, after playing some smash 64 I've come to the realization ... why not give Cap some of his moves from back then. For example, his foward smash or up-smash (which would be great for combos like it was back then). This would also seperate the "clone-ness" of him and Ganon.

Also, coulld the falcon pnch be cancel-able and/or make the raptor boost able to turn like the falcon punch?

I think a couple things from 64 would not only make him less of a clone. But it would make him even more fun to play. I love 64 Falcon.

 

[MVP]

I think that SSB64 Falcon F-Smash would be awesome.
It would further differentiate from Ganon and just be really awesome.

but melee f-smash is better. he has the same range plus he slides back to avoid being touched then slides forward (covering the same range as 64 f-smash)

plus it the PEOPLE'S ELBOW!!

 

[Player -0]

but melee f-smash is better. he has the same range plus he slides back to avoid being touched then slides forward (covering the same range as 64 f-smash)

plus it the PEOPLE'S ELBOW!!

Kicks are awesome-er, elbow is just meh.

 

[Olbus]

I prefer his U-smash from 64, I don't know what you chaps think.

 

[GeZ]

I prefer his U-smash from 64, I don't know what you chaps think.

I think I like his Melee Usmash in conjunction with Dairs and Grabs. I also think that chaps is almost as bad a phrase as sirs when not used ironically.

 

[yohoos]

I think I like his Melee Usmash in conjunction with Dairs and Grabs. I also think that chaps is almost as bad a phrase as sirs when not used ironically.

I don't see dtilt/grab Upsmash working on anyone other than space animals and falcon himself. Also, at that point why not just go for a knee or UpAir combo.

 

[GeZ]

Dair, grab, Dthrow Usmash works at early percents on a lot of characters. And saying why not do Uair's to Knee applies to his whole game. Why would I use Uair's even when I can just string together Knees? A lot of the variety of Falcon is up to the creativity of the player.

 

[yohoos]

Dair, grab, Dthrow Usmash works at early percents on a lot of characters. And saying why not do Uair's to Knee applies to his whole game. Why would I use Uair's even when I can just string together Knees? A lot of the variety of Falcon is up to the creativity of the player.

I personally never get off Dgrab-UpSmash whenever I happen to go for it although I also admit that I rarely go for it. Additionally, knee is his whole game thus, all his aerials are a better option because they can all combo into it. You change up the aerials mainly because of character weights, percentages, and positioning not because of variety. I mean if I could always do Knee --> Knee I would, but I can't. UpSmash does not combo into a knee nor does it net a kill, making it a worse option in any case.

 

[GeZ]

And you're proposing that his N64 Usmash would better lend itself to a knee? The question then is, even if his new Usmash is better suited for it, why do that instead of an aerial into knee? My point has been that replacing these moves with other moves won't help Falcon because he can already do what they would do without them. His problems can't be fixed by adding more useful normals, because his normals have nothing to to with his problems.

 

[yohoos]

And you're proposing that his N64 Usmash would better lend itself to a knee? The question then is, even if his new Usmash is better suited for it, why do that instead of an aerial into knee? My point has been that replacing these moves with other moves won't help Falcon because he can already do what they would do without them. His problems can't be fixed by adding more useful normals, because his normals have nothing to to with his problems.

What I propose is that his Upsmash should contain an active hitbox on the ground from the getgo to attack and defend against crouchers. I also think that the knockback should be similar to his current UpThrow (I understand that throws work slightly differently). This may lead into knees at certain percentages for certain characters much like his current Upthrow, but more importantly it ACTUALLY has a followup into at least one aerial. Also this move would work better than aerials in starting combos at lower percentages (much like grabs) since aerials don't knock other characters high enough at low percents.

Now, why this move instead of UpThrow you may say. Well, I already said it should be effective against most if not all crouchers and we all agree that Falcon can't always grab when certain characters crouch. Additionally, this would also give Falcon a conventional anti-air option. He current lacks good anti-air options since his Uptilt isn't like most Uptilts. His only other anti-air being insta-Upair but that move is difficult to time/pull off and you can't always followup afterwards. This will give a better, more conventional option at certain situations, not all because it's hitbox won't be as large as Upair. Just as a crude example, fox may no longer be able to nair into falcon 100% safely as now falcon can challenge that nair with his upsmash.

 

[Drodeka]

Forward Smash I could definitely be okay with coming back, but it would need some touch-ups for sure.
As for aerial game, I pretty much love every aerial he has, so no changes there.
Up smash change? Mmmmm... nah. His up smash right now not only works well with down throw, but also fits the melee Captain Falcon character more.
Getting that 64 falcon punch back would probably move him up a couple spaces in tournament results lol.

 

[TheKmanOfSmash]

And you're proposing that his N64 Usmash would better lend itself to a knee? The question then is, even if his new Usmash is better suited for it, why do that instead of an aerial into knee? My point has been that replacing these moves with other moves won't help Falcon because he can already do what they would do without them. His problems can't be fixed by adding more useful normals, because his normals have nothing to to with his problems.

Falcon suffers from mediocre options OoS, his up-smash included. Melee and Brawl Falcon up-smash only cover the front of Falcon and the first hit almost never converts to the 2nd, strong hit unless you're really close to them. And even if you're close to them, they can SDI away from the 2nd hit anyway. And at mid-high to high percents, you can usually never combo off of it because it sends them too far away. I believe 64 Falcon's up-smash was the weakest up-smash in Smash64 in terms of knockback, but that trait coupled with the serious amount of hitstun it gave always set up for very damaging combos at a very vast percent range. It was an amazing launcher, probably one of the best Falcon has ever had. Quite honestly, it's like being able to do a weaker but more hitstun-inducing raptor boost OoS without having to worry about the horrendous ending lag (and the horizontal distance of course). Also, Falcon's up-smash can go above platforms like Marth's Up-tilt and even though Melee Falcon's up-smash can go above some platforms as well, 64 Falcon's up-smash covers more area above the platform. Falcon with his Smash64 up-smash can only add to his OoS game, platform pressure game, and it gives him an overall better launcher. I'm not sure why you're opposed to it.

You've said that there's nothing that P:M Falcon's other moves can't do that additions of other moves can but that' simply not true, as I've stated above, with one of his main "problems" being his OoS game which 64 up-smash can help in improving.

 

[GeZ]

Falcon suffers from mediocre options OoS, his up-smash included. Melee and Brawl Falcon up-smash only cover the front of Falcon and the first hit almost never converts to the 2nd, strong hit unless you're really close to them. And even if you're close to them, they can SDI away from the 2nd hit anyway. And at mid-high to high percents, you can usually never combo off of it because it sends them too far away. I believe 64 Falcon's up-smash was the weakest up-smash in Smash64 in terms of knockback, but that trait coupled with the serious amount of hitstun it gave always set up for very damaging combos at a very vast percent range. It was an amazing launcher, probably one of the best Falcon has ever had. Quite honestly, it's like being able to do a weaker but more hitstun-inducing raptor boost OoS without having to worry about the horrendous ending lag (and the horizontal distance of course). Also, Falcon's up-smash can go above platforms like Marth's Up-tilt and even though Melee Falcon's up-smash can go above some platforms as well, 64 Falcon's up-smash covers more area above the platform. Falcon with his Smash64 up-smash can only add to his OoS game, platform pressure game, and it gives him an overall better launcher. I'm not sure why you're opposed to it.

You've said that there's nothing that P:M Falcon's other moves can't do that additions of other moves can but that' simply not true, as I've stated above, with one of his main "problems" being his OoS game which 64 up-smash can help in improving.

Very few moves work as OoS options because it has to be really solid and high priority and all encompassing in a logical way. I don't think 64 Usmash fits that bill at all, unless they decide to design it specifically as an OoS option and make it fast, cover his whole body and then some, and give it enough damage to out prioritize moves that would be used to pressure your shield.

Basically the move could do everything you say it does, but anything could do that if it was designed to do so. Besides, Falcon doesn't really have any attacking OoS options, but WD OoS works well enough. I'm opposed to the idea because it won't function like you claim it will naturally. It'll do so by being applied that way, and following that logic, you're not asking for them to put in Smash 64 Usmash, you're asking them to put in something to solve the problems you're envisioning, and calling it the Smash 64 Usmash.

 

[prisoner]

Very few moves work as OoS options because it has to be really solid and high priority and all encompassing in a logical way. I don't think 64 Usmash fits that bill at all, unless they decide to design it specifically as an OoS option and make it fast, cover his whole body and then some, and give it enough damage to out prioritize moves that would be used to pressure your shield.

Basically the move could do everything you say it does, but anything could do that if it was designed to do so. Besides, Falcon doesn't really have any attacking OoS options, but WD OoS works well enough. I'm opposed to the idea because it won't function like you claim it will naturally. It'll do so by being applied that way, and following that logic, you're not asking for them to put in Smash 64 Usmash, you're asking them to put in something to solve the problems you're envisioning, and calling it the Smash 64 Usmash.

how won't it function like he claims it will? even if it had a very specific mid/upper body range, opponents would have to be careful with spacing or they might eat a quick up smash and get sucked into a major combo. I can see it being especially useful if an opponent were to whiff an arial against your shield. it doesn't have to do high damage (though the 17% it did in N64 is plenty I think) for it to be a good OoS option. Snake's UpB doesn't have huge range or damage, but he gets to use it an awful lot OoS.

 

[TheKmanOfSmash]

Very few moves work as OoS options because it has to be really solid and high priority and all encompassing in a logical way. I don't think 64 Usmash fits that bill at all, unless they decide to design it specifically as an OoS option and make it fast, cover his whole body and then some, and give it enough damage to out prioritize moves that would be used to pressure your shield.

Basically the move could do everything you say it does, but anything could do that if it was designed to do so. Besides, Falcon doesn't really have any attacking OoS options, but WD OoS works well enough. I'm opposed to the idea because it won't function like you claim it will naturally. It'll do so by being applied that way, and following that logic, you're not asking for them to put in Smash 64 Usmash, you're asking them to put in something to solve the problems you're envisioning, and calling it the Smash 64 Usmash.

lmao... Thanks for responding, buuuut...

how won't it function like he claims it will? even if it had a very specific mid/upper body range, opponents would have to be careful with spacing or they might eat a quick up smash and get sucked into a major combo. I can see it being especially useful if an opponent were to whiff an arial against your shield. it doesn't have to do high damage (though the 17% it did in N64 is plenty I think) for it to be a good OoS option. Snake's UpB doesn't have huge range or damage, but he gets to use it an awful lot OoS.

Pretty much what prisoner said. Snake's up-b OoS is a great example of an OoS option that doesn't have the best horizontal range, but it's low knockback and high hitstun sets up for dangerous combos. Which is analogous to Falcon's Smash 64 up-smash, based on what I described previously. Yet for some reason, you think that what I said about Falcon's Smash64 up-smash describes a different, theoretical move? How would what I've said give you the notion that Falcon's 64 Up-Smash won't function the same way? Everything I've said is based on how the move works in Smash64. Have you even played that game?

That is the hitbox for Falcon's up-smash in 64. As you can see from start up, it covers his entire body and at the part where he stands straight up, it covers half of his body. It also comes out pretty fast (don't know exact frames). It has decent horizontal range and is out for a decent amount of time and can definitely punish people who pressure Falcon's shield carelessly and lead into big combos, something which Falcon had trouble doing OoS.

These are the hitboxes for Falcon's up-smash in Melee. The first and second hits of up-smash last only 2 frames each. Only TWO frames. And the first hit comes out on FRAME 21! That's pretty bad, man. Also, both hits only cover the front of Falcon, there is no hitbox behind Falcon and it doesn't cover his entire body. Again, the first hit does not convert into the 2nd hit very well from mid-range/afar and even when you're close, the opponent can SDI away from the 2nd hit.

Falcon's 64 up-smash is only one hit, it lasts longer, has a bigger hitbox above him, comes out faster, pretty much covers his entire body, has about the same horizontal range as Melee/Brawl up-smash, and has more utility than his Melee/Brawl up-smash.

And then you want to say that everything I described about Falcon's Smash64 up-smash isn't actually what it does? If that's the case, then tell me: What does Falcon's Smash64 up-smash do?

 

[GeZ]

But why wouldn't you just SH aerial cross up OoS instead? Or grab? It's also stationary, so if they see it coming, or if they're just spacing well or shielding, you miss and get ****ed. On top of that, this isn't what Falcon needs. I don't think Falcon needs much really, and I think this is crossing too far to the other side of balance to "something is non optimal. we should replace it with something else, not because it helps the characters problems, but because it would be nice in some situations". Too much focus on things that Falcon isn't intrinsically bad at.

 

[TheKmanOfSmash]

But why wouldn't you just SH aerial cross up OoS instead? Or grab? It's also stationary, so if they see it coming, or if they're just spacing well or shielding, you miss and get ****ed. On top of that, this isn't what Falcon needs. I don't think Falcon needs much really, and I think this is crossing too far to the other side of balance to "something is non optimal. we should replace it with something else, not because it helps the characters problems, but because it would be nice in some situations". Too much focus on things that Falcon isn't intrinsically bad at.

Because every aerial he can do OoS that would net a significant punish comes out too slow, has bad range, and/or gets crouch canceled against top tiers.

• Up-air on frame 6 (pretty useless for characters that are in-front of you)
  
• Nair on frame 7 (Probably the best aerial Falcon can do OoS in terms of speed and range and overall utility, imo, but it gets CC'd),
  
• Bair on frame 10 (Only useful for people behind him, and even then it's not that fast, but it's not the slowest thing ever),
  
• Knee on frame 14 (slow, but it has situations where it can be used to punish laggy attacks on shield like Fox up-smash. Not so much moves with little end lag like Fox's nair)
• Stomp on frame 16 (The reason why stomp is useful against spacie shield pressure is because of the animation, not the start up of the hitbox. Falcon curls up into a ball high in the air on like frame 3 or something, which can go above spacie hitboxes).

When you factor in the 5 frames of jumpstart Falcon has, you add 5 frames to every aerial he can do OoS.

• Up-air-11
• Nair-12
• Bair-15
• Knee-19
• Stomp-21

I don't know if you've noticed, but in terms of an actual OoS game, this is the best Falcon has and, compared to the speeds of other characters in the game, it's PRETTY ****ING BAD. This is why spacies destroy Falcon. He can't barely respond OoS with anything other than a roll or wavedash back. If Falcon's Smash64 up-smash comes out on frame 6 (I'm not sure of the exact frame, but it's pretty fast), then this gives him a SIGNIFICANT ADVANTAGE OoS!

Even though it's just one option, it can go a really long way. In Melee, Bowser would probably has one of the worse overall OoS games in the history of Smash Brothers if it wasn't for one move: Up-B (Whirling Fortress). Because of that move, Bowser is an actual threat OoS because of how fast it comes out and the invincibility frames it has. Imagine Bowser without that move: He'd be more trash in Melee than he is now.

To your other points:

• Melee Fox's up-smash is also stationary and can leave you open to be punished very hard if missed. I don't see anyone saying that Fox's up-smash is bad or unnecessary. The reason is because a move that leaves you stationary or not is not a significant determinant in how good said move can be. If that were true, then Falcon's up-smash would've been bad in Smash64 as well and if you know anything about Smash64, it's one of Falcon's best moves.

• Though Falcon's grab comes out on frame 7 (like nearly every other character's grab in the game), he has one of the worst grab ranges in the history of Smash Brothers.

• Yes, this is what Falcon needs because he has an extremely mediocre OoS game. If you don't want to accept that as a significant problem which Falcon has, then you don't know the character as well as you may think you do.

• Turning something that is non-optimal and is giving a character difficulties, especially when it constitute a significant aspect of Melee/P:M (the OoS game), into something that is optimal is BY DEFINITION helping the character's problems. Or at the very, very least, making the character better than before at said aspect of the game.

• As shown above, Falcon is intrinsically bad OoS. And if you refuse to accept that fact, then you do not know the character as well as you think you do.

Also, you have failed to critically respond to any of my points/answer any of my questions. In your next post (if you choose to respond), I would request that you answer the questions that I previously asked instead of dodging them:

• "How would what I've said give you the notion that Falcon's 64 Up-Smash won't function the same way?"
• "Have you even played [Smash64]?"
• "What does Falcon's Smash64 up-smash do?"

 

[GeZ]

Holy hell, bullet points. I am undone.

In all seriousness, you've convinced me on how it would be helpful to Falcon, but I think it may still be too stuffable. And, out of curiosity, how much larger is the range than grab? If it's not greatly so, then grab is one frame slower and leads to more options.

I know that OoS is not Falcon's forte, but for the character, it's a bit reduced in order of importance as Falcon is a character of spacing, pressure, and capitalization. A buff to his OoS options would be nice, but only so beneficial since optimally, that's a situation you spend very little time in.

Also, as a bit of an unrelated note, do you need a glass of water? You seem a bit aggressive in your arguing, but that might just be me. Good stuff in any case.