Hopeful buffs added in the upcoming Balance patch

[HaxMiner]

Hello GnW boards, just saying what I hope will be changed about Game and Watch in the upcoming patch.

Buffs
+ Smash Power akin to Brawl, although a little weaker
+ Significantly less startup lag on smash attacks
+ Slightly faster dash speed

What do you guys think? I hope that he'll become a much more viable character if he's given just these simple buffs to him, because as it stands his kill power is lackluster, and most of his smash attacks come out too slow to even hit unless you get a hard read. Leave what you think will happen to him below, or comments on my predictions/hopefuls.

 

[Zegend]

What about changing his bair so it's more like Megaman's? Reduce the range a little in return for solid KO power. I think landing a KO is g&w's main problem, and a reliable KO attack like that would really make him much more viable in my opinion.

 

[SeanS]

All that is *actually* needed is a uthrow that kills at 120-130% on normalweights. That will never happen, though.

Endlag buffs to some moves would be okay, but I doubt Sakurai and co. have the intelligence to even do that.

More realistically, because Sakurai and co. balance in the interests of casual play first, and G&W is seen as a threat in this environment, if there are going to be any buffs, they will be to kill percents and damage per hit - which will do very little for this character in practice, even if they are helpful on the surface. (Exception: sweetspot fair and dair kill percent buffs have potential, as does a knockback boost to Up B.)

Even more realistically, we're getting nothing because G&W is so neglected by the Smash community that he will be seen as someone who does not need a patch.

Do not get your hypes up - it is going to be people like me who aren't routinely complaining about him and actually trying to get results with him who are going to be doing better with him, even if he does get patched.

 

[SeanS]

And one other thing. In anticipation of this, we need to start working on patch discovery immediately. Dantarion will probably have code dumped, although I'm not sure if we can get the day one news that is really needed.

We need people to compare the effect of each and every move in case we cannot rely on him to list objective changes. I have thought about doing this myself, but I don't have the recording means. Someone has to do the work here.

 

[SFA Smiley]

He needs safer moves in neutral IMO but we will never get that.

A Uthrow kill throw would be amazing but I don't think we'd get that either

Power buff and an overall Rage nerf would really help this character. Right now he's ultralight for no real reason. His moves have to be scarier.

I hope dthrow is unchanged. Having strong throw followups that aren't broken or boring or stupid and actually require skill, reading your opponent, and playing well in general make this character have something going for him and makes him interesting. Also more reliable than tech reads in Brawl. Those were good but they were really difficult as it took not only a proper read but frame perfect execution for some characters.

I'm just hoping rage gets nerfed, as I've said before this character is honestly where he is right now because and how much he has to outplay his opponent. He has to have like 3x as many positive interactions to come out on top. I regularly die at like sub 70 %s. watch my doubles videos for proof.

 

[mario123007]

Hello GnW boards, just saying what I hope will be changed about Game and Watch in the upcoming patch.
Buffs
+ Smash Power akin to Brawl, although a little weaker
+ Significantly less startup lag on smash attacks
+ Slightly faster dash speed

What do you guys think? I hope that he'll become a much more viable character if he's given just these simple buffs to him, because as it stands his kill power is lackluster, and most of his smash attacks come out too slow to even hit unless you get a hard read. Leave what you think will happen to him below, or comments on my predictions/hopefuls.

Good, good.

 

[SeanS]

You are not going to get a nerf to fundamentals. In fact, people would oppose this precisely because it would decrease the speed of game flow, unless coupled with other fundamental changes to the game. And I'm sorry, but dying at 70% sounds very irregular. I do not play doubles, but you must be dying to bowser fsmashes or something.

I also of course hope dthrow is unchanged. Sakurai and co. would reach new lows of retardedness if they "fixed" this - this is one of G&W's most defining moves right now. Honestly, I'm scared that you're entertaining the possibility before it has been openly thought by most of us because you're now invoking Murphy's Law.

 

[GamemasterTom]

The thing i want the most is less landing lag in his aerials, and the return of slow-falled d-air

 

[Neb]

Smiley plays a more aggressive G&W - so dying at 70% isn't too outlandish. At the very least, change nothing about the character. But... if they must, I would trim the lag on bair and dtilt to strengthen his neutral. Even stretch the hitbox on fsmash. All other obstacles will eventually be smoothed over with meta growth.

 

[SeanS]

dtilt isn't a necessity at all even if it gets buffed. It is an extremely situational move and will remain so unless the endlag buff is absolutely ridiculous to the point where jab or ftilt are outmoded. Even becoming more reliable in footsies than ftilt will not justify it because ftilt has much stronger knockback.

I suppose doubles can encourage you to play in a super aggressive way even by this character's standards - I wouldn't know since I'm not a fan of it.

the return of slow-falled d-air

This exists, it's just not manual and it's momentum based. You can space it against people all the time.

 

[Raithen]

One thing only he needs, everything else is perfectly fine (except down tilt ) and that is a bit more weight.

He is weighted like a glass cannon but lacks the gimp moves to back it up. Give him more weight and all of his moves will suit him.

His bair if spaced properly is almost impossible to punish and dominates neutral.
His recovery is godly with invincible frames to stop gimps.
His fast fall nair is insane.
His edge guarding, well he has about 6 safe options to edge guard.

Make it so he doesn't die at 30 percent to a bowser fsmash and I'll be happy.

 

[Neb]

A la Brawl Marth's dtilt. Less commitment than ftilt, and more range than jab. It flutters on block for good shield pressure, and aside from an excellent anti-air/projectile, having low endlag translates into baits. Rolls and spotdodges being easy prey to dashA/smashes/grab. A neutral trap is not a bad thing to have.

 

[Keep2D]

I'm hoping for more kill power on G&W, as G&W as a whole lacks that the most. That being said, more range on Fsmash would be great, and adding more kill power on Fair and especially Dair would be awesome as well, considering the heavy amount of ending lag on Dair now.
Other than that I'm honestly fine with G&W. I don't expect them to patch him at all.

 

[Ultinarok]

-Less laggy d-tilt for better spacing.
-Return fair to its sweetspot-killing glory. One of his most crippling aerial nerfs.
-Uair hits should link together better without having to be doing a rising jump. Windbox should only be applied when the opponent is out of reach of the first hit, and it should lock them into the second otherwise.
-Make Chef a more persistent projectile ala Pac-Man's fruit. More on-screen time allows for it to make additional hitstun and help set-up KOs. right now it only helps set-up U-Smash occasionally.
-Better kill power on sour-spotted smash attacks.

G&W is a glass cannon character by design. He should be absurdly strong in exchange for being easy to kill. He isn't that good at killing right now. I loved Brawl G&W and want to see him return.

 

[lllp3lll]

This character actually needs nothing.

D-tilt is fine just don't use it until 60-70% (it's a 6frame moves that causes a tech chase situation.)

We can't combo into smash attacks, buffing them will promote throwing them out more.

One thing only he needs, everything else is perfectly fine (except down tilt ) and that is a bit more weight.

This is so true, more weight would allow us to take more risks or make more mistakes, but it would go against his design (lightweight super crouch character).

I'd like to be able to bucket brake again, it would allow us to live longer and requires some level of technical skill to perform.

 

[Keep2D]

Guys a little random side note, I've been wanting to create a Skype Group for G&W Mains/Users and have already made a thread about it so if you'd like you can post your Skype user in that thread!
Thanks :D

 

[JohnnyB]

They have had a lot of time since the last patch to make changes to the roster. It would be dissapointing if they left g&w completely untouched, but i doubt he will change much. He has been very deliberately nerfed since brawl and i don't see why they would go back on that now.

On the other hand though, despite Sakurais contemptuous attitude to the competitive side of smash, he does pay attention. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Neb]

Doesn't make much sense adding weight. We're lucky he isn't THE lightest of the cast... its only logical. Reverting to the old bucket mechanics, however, is something I can welcome. And to side with some of the expressed opinions in this thread, I honestly like this character the way he is, and don't mind supporting a playstyle that is distant from previous interpretations. Unlike Brawl, G&W seems to have a high ceiling of potential here.

Edit: SeanS made a good point though. Sakurai's emphasis is first on casual entertainment. G&W is not at all fun for a beginner to play - individuals who choose him will get the occasional 9 - they'll get the bucket. But aside from that jank, they'll often lose... I'm speculating there may be some "drastic" changes.

 

[SFA Smiley]

I'm on my phone so I'm not able to make a hilarious compilation of low percent deaths that I experience.

Like I said I want more KO power mainly. We need it to offset my other hope that rage is toned down.

I forgot about dtilt it should be buffed IMO. It won't nullify tilt and jab. It could be slower than them but knock opponents down or at a bad angle, or pressure at the ledge. It'd be great against fat characters. That wind box still sucks. I would trade the gimmicky like 5 kills I've gotten for a better spacing tool in neutral.

But overall I'm fine with him

I just wanna stop outplaying people and dying first.

 

[SeanS]

Edit: SeanS made a good point though. Sakurai's emphasis is first on casual entertainment. G&W is not at all fun for a beginner to play - individuals who choose him will get the occasional 9 - they'll get the bucket. But aside from that jank, they'll often lose... I'm speculating there may be some "drastic" changes.

Not merely *as*, but against. For someone who doesn't know how to shield, his lingering hitboxes and quick movements are nightmare to deal with - they're not exactly easy for good players to deal with as they are, at least assuming the G&W is good. And if you as a casual play someone who is good with him, you can quite literally be left with the feeling like you can do nothing but get rushed at every angle.

This all said... we will be truly fortunate if Sakurai and co. do look at the stats of this character and think casuals can't or won't use him at all (true for the most part). Competition stands to benefit in terms of depth, aggression, and game speed if this character is buffed. G&W can crack the defensive code with a few changes. This is the ideal outcome for this game, quite literally - the question is whether this character even remotely factors into their balance considerations.

 

[SFA Smiley]

^I actually think we may.

Due to the overall huge amount of people competitive or otherwise who are vocal about how bad he is on the internet. Most people think he's actually worse than he really is. Which is good for us.

Even if we were to get buffs in the wrong areas, I'll take them. The worst case scenario if that happens is we stay where we're at, and things get a bit easier.

If he stays the same and rage gets nerfed though I'll be happy... but if rage gets nerfed I hope we get a power buff so we stay glass cannon status but don't die as much to stupid stuff

 

[Neb]

Unless they are removing a glitch or adjusting some kind of OP character tool, I don't recall minor data tweaking on patches. Its usually something a casual player would benefit from. So I believe even if G&W were not used as a vehicle for balance - the tinkering with "upper tier" characters would indirectly benefit us.

When it comes down to it, the only way we would not gain from this patch is if Sakurai took our dthrow/usmash. With such a lackluster reputation, I don't see that happening.

 

[SFA Smiley]

I don't think its likely but I don't think its impossible to get a rage nerf either.

I just think the way the mechanic works as if now negatively affects the game at multiple levels of play

And vectoring did get changed, in a kind of dumb way but still

Ideally, and this is my own opinion, I would like character specific rage where certain characters like power characters get a bigger boost. Fatties and gdubs for example, while characters like diddy dontdon't uair killyou at 70%. Forgive my grammar my phone is stupid aATM. New one is in the mail though

But yeah umvc3 had a system like that for x factor. Where strong characters got bigger strength boosts and fast character sacrificed that power boost for speed

 

[GamemasterTom]

Ideally, and this is my own opinion, I would like character specific rage where certain characters like power characters get a bigger boost. Fatties and gdubs for example, while characters like diddy dontdon't uair killyou at 70%. Forgive my grammar my phone is stupid aATM. New one is in the mail though

But yeah umvc3 had a system like that for x factor. Where strong characters got bigger strength boosts and fast character sacrificed that power boost for speed

I'm with you, specific rage for each character would be pretty good

 

[Luxent]

Revert him to how he was in brawl ;___;

 

[TheMiSP]

Make more things safe on shield and possibly have them eat shields ala Brawl turtle.

 

[Deleted member]

Pretty much what I said in an older thread:

Make B-air have less landing lag and do more damage (it does 9% now compared to 17% in brawl)
Be able to slowfall d-air/give it less landing lag
Give him more killing power and speed on his F-smash/make the sourspot next to non-existent (obviously)
Less ending lag on d-tilt
Lingering hitbox on fsmash
More range on U-tilt so the hits actually connect
Make F-air do more damage/horizontal knockback

Also it'd be nice if jab's first hit couldn't be escaped.

 

[FooltheFlames]

I'd love if the sour spots on his D-smash were increased in power similar to how they were in brawl!

 

[GamemasterTom]

Another thing we need is for Up-Air to be easier to connect both hits

 

[Neiroa]

Buffs I hope:
+ Less ending lag (because punishing him (even killing him) is so easy)
+ A little more knockback on his Fair would be cool
+ Better Hitbox on his Up Tilt