Social Hope Will Never Die! - Lucina Thread

[Turnips and Daisies.]

Indeed I am, but that idle stance really bugs me. In fact, Lucina is about the only thing in Ultimate that really grinds my gears.

Oh, hey, and it's Lucina's turn on the website. "Most" moves. Right.

Actually on the JP blog it says “In Marth’s Dash Fighter, the basic performance of her moveset is the same as Marth’s, but unlike Marth, the attack power on the tip of her sword is the same as the hilt’s.”

 

[Arthur97]

Actually on the JP blog it says “In Marth’s Dash Fighter, the basic performance of her moveset is the same as Marth’s, but unlike Marth, the attack power on the tip of her sword is the same as the hilt’s.”

So more accurate in the mundaneness.

Edit: In other news, summer Lucina is now a thing.

 

[Arthur97]

Excuse the double post, but I read that Lucina's Cherche color was replaced.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

Excuse the double post, but I read that Lucina's Cherche color was replaced.

I thought I saw it in the video. Though if I was incorrect that's disappointing as it was my favorite of her colors

 

[Arthur97]

I thought I saw it in the video. Though if I was incorrect that's disappointing as it was my favorite of her colors

So did I, but I also read it wasn't there that it was instead Say'ri.

Edit: Upon further looking into it, it appears to still be Cherche.

 

[Arthur97]

Wow, they actually went back and changed Lucina's idle stance to match Marth's new one apparently. It's like they think its accurate for her to do almost everything the same.

 

[Vipermoon]

Wow, they actually went back and changed Lucina's idle stance to match Marth's new one apparently. It's like they think its accurate for her to do almost everything the same.

I have been complaining about this too. Marth received dozens of new animations. In the ways Lucina, Chrom, and Roy are cloned, they also received these same animations. It was a PERFECT moment for them to differentiate more, and they blew it.

 

[Arthur97]

I have been complaining about this too. Marth received dozens of new animations. In the ways Lucina, Chrom, and Roy are cloned, they also received these same animations. It was a PERFECT moment for them to differentiate more, and they blew it.

Especially since they apparently went out of their way to do it.

 

[Vipermoon]

Especially since they apparently went out of their way to do it.

It could be something out of our understanding. Maybe these characters still using the same animations made development easier.

 

[Arthur97]

It could be something out of our understanding. Maybe these characters still using the same animations made development easier.

Not sure how so since for a long while Lucina was still using the old idle stance. Seems they did most of the development without them.

 

[Vipermoon]

Not sure how so since for a long while Lucina was still using the old idle stance. Seems they did most of the development without them.

You're right! I went back to the E3 presentation, Marth was using the new stance. I was thinking maybe changes to animations for them were tied together somehow. Not the case.

Edit: Unless the footage we saw of Lucina's old idle stance was older than when Marcina received their new one. That's possible unless Lucina fairly recently was seen with the old one.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Must be their way of pushing Echoes.

 

[Vipermoon]

Must be their way of pushing Echoes.

But all the other echos have animation differences. It seems more like a couple pairs of echos getting shafted.

Case in point, Chrom. How is it that he has Roy's multi-hit Usmash and Roy's explosion-hitbox neutral-B? Roy's fire/explosion property enables those moves to make sense. With Chrom, it makes none. Usmash should have been a two hitter with a quick, Shulk-Utilt-looking swipe, then the upward stab. The first hit would do the same damage as Roy's multi-hit, and the stab can be identical in knockback and damage to Roy's final hit. And neutral-B? In Melee, Marth and Roy had hitboxes on their sword for that move (rather than on an explosion, like Smash 4 Roy), bring that back for Chrom.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Just another problem with how Fire Emblem is handled, I guess?

 

[Arthur97]

But all the other echos have animation differences. It seems more like a couple pairs of echos getting shafted.

Case in point, Chrom. How is it that he has Roy's multi-hit Usmash and Roy's explosion-hitbox neutral-B? Roy's fire/explosion property enables those moves to make sense. With Chrom, it makes none. Usmash should have been a two hitter with a quick, Shulk-Utilt-looking swipe, then the upward stab. The first hit would do the same damage as Roy's multi-hit, and the stab can be identical in knockback and damage to Roy's final hit. And neutral-B? In Melee, Marth and Roy had hitboxes on their sword for that move (rather than on an explosion, like Smash 4 Roy), bring that back for Chrom.

Chrom uses a wind effect for the up smash.

Still, Chrom got off better. He at least got an idle stance and unique FS. Well, unless they really did intentionally give him Aether so he wouldn't be better than Roy.

 

[Vipermoon]

Chrom uses a wind effect for the up smash.

Yeah, that's what it looks like. And it still makes no sense to me.

 

[Arthur97]

Yeah, that's what it looks like. And it still makes no sense to me.

He does have plenty of heroic wind, and at least they bothered to animate something for him.

 

[Puff-Man]

Don't know if anyone posted this, but Zero said that in this game Lucina will be better than Marth because she is a lot more consistent and consistency in this game matters a lot.
https://youtu.be/Dn-AcKCMN3w?t=1880
I've also been hearing rumors of Marth's tipper being "weird" and "less consistent".

 

[Arthur97]

Don't know if anyone posted this, but Zero said that in this game Lucina will be better than Marth because she is a lot more consistent and consistency in this game matters a lot.
https://youtu.be/Dn-AcKCMN3w?t=1880
I've also been hearing rumors of Marth's tipper being "weird" and "less consistent".

Didn't he use her in 4 for the same reason?

 

[Vipermoon]

Lucina is certainly extremely useful in many matchups for me in Smash 4. Her good damage isn't nerfed, so that will continue in SSBU.

I think future Marth players need to realize that mastering their character's movement then focusing on each move's tipper and trying to account for the different hurtbox shapes, extruding limbs, and knockback animations take time. Years in fact. So of course Marth will seem like a worse option.

 

[Arthur97]

I genuinely want him to have something that actually makes Lucina a valid option.

 

[Vipermoon]

I genuinely want him to have something that actually makes Lucina a valid option.

I agree. But at the same time, there should be a reward for using the more difficult character assuming it's done effectively.

 

[Arthur97]

I agree. But at the same time, there should be a reward for using the more difficult character assuming it's done effectively.

But it's about the only way she can have a chance. At the very least I want it to be much harder to land a tipper.

 

[Vipermoon]

But it's about the only way she can have a chance. At the very least I want it to be much harder to land a tipper.

We just got done saying tippers are naturally inconsistent because of you can't control who your opponent is, where they are, and what animation they're in. The effects of all that being exaggerated by the sourspots out-prioritizing the tippers at points of overlap. I cannot use Marth against Charizard, DK, Yoshi, and a few others solely because their weird character model makes tippers super difficult (my spacing at this point is top level).

What you want is early Smash 4 (though you're asking for even worse tippers than that). To compensate for that, sourspots would have to be strong or damaging, or Lucina would have to be heavily nerfed in damage. Where have we seen that? Smash 4 release Lucina. That damage and kill power was totally unfair for her, but it would have to be the case if Marth's tippers were "much hard to land". And then Marcina can go back to being bottom tier. See how it's a balance?

Or if we just say **** it, who cares, make tippers difficult even for top players and keep Lucina the same. Well, then we just got rid of a popular and iconic character in Smash, didn't we? A unique character that teaches its players how to do something that's important for any character in competitive play: Spacing. A character whose damage properties make too much sense – weakness in the arms (with small hitboxes that miss up close all the time), so-so reward in the hilt/middle, and full strength at the end where the blade is physically moving at its fastest angular velocity.

It's even worse on the casual side. One of Sakurai's main goals since after Melee has been to make the game easier for players, especially beginners. The beginners already have much more incentive to play Lucina as it is. He wouldn't completely remove Marth from their consideration by effectively making him unplayable for them.

I get where you're coming from. I criticized the tipper hitboxes moving outward on a few of Marcina's moves in that one buff. "Easier tippers are not what we need", I said. "Reduction of lag is what we needed." But then I realized after several months, they knew what they were doing.

 

[Arthur97]

We just got done saying tippers are naturally inconsistent because of you can't control who your opponent is, where they are, and what animation they're in. The effects of all that being exaggerated by the sourspots out-prioritizing the tippers at points of overlap. I cannot use Marth against Charizard, DK, Yoshi, and a few others solely because their weird character model makes tippers super difficult (my spacing at this point is top level).

What you want is early Smash 4 (though you're asking for even worse tippers than that). To compensate for that, sourspots would have to be strong or damaging, or Lucina would have to be heavily nerfed in damage. Where have we seen that? Smash 4 release Lucina. That damage and kill power was totally unfair for her, but it would have to be the case if Marth's tippers were "much hard to land". And then Marcina can go back to being bottom tier. See how it's a balance?

Or if we just say **** it, who cares, make tippers difficult even for top players and keep Lucina the same. Well, then we just got rid of a popular and iconic character in Smash, didn't we? A unique character that teaches its players how to do something that's important for any character in competitive play: Spacing. A character whose damage properties make too much sense – weakness in the arms (with small hitboxes that miss up close all the time), so-so reward in the middle, and full strength at the end where the blade is physically moving at its fastest angular velocity.

It's even worse on the casual side. One of Sakurai's main goals since after Melee has been to make the game easier for players, especially beginners. The beginners already have much more incentive to play Lucina as it is. He wouldn't completely remove Marth from their consideration by effectively making him unplayable for them.

I get where you're coming from. I criticized the tipper hitboxes moving outward on a few of Marcina's moves in that one buff. "Easier tippers is not what we need", I said. "Reduction of lag is what we needed." But then I realized after several months, they knew what they were doing.

I don't care how they do it, I just don't want her to be inferior. Ideally, decloning would solve the issue more as then they wouldn't be direct comparisons, but as it stands, this is what we have and Lucina will almost certainly always be considered lesser.

 

[Vipermoon]

I don't care how they do it, I just don't want her to be inferior. Ideally, decloning would solve the issue more as then they wouldn't be direct comparisons, but as it stands, this is what we have and Lucina will almost certainly always be considered lesser.

She is very useful and she may not be lesser in Ultimate. But the thing is, as it stands, why should she not be inferior? It's literally Marth EZ-mode. You're right that it would require a declone.

Here is how I can visualize it with low effort from the development team. Marcina usually has three hitboxes on any given attack, but rarely four. The centers of these hitbox spheres are located on the 1) body (if it exists), 2) arm, 3) hilt, and 4) 2nd half of blade. Lucina can have Marth's sourspot on the arm/body, then good damage on the hilt and 2nd half of blade (think Lucina's Fair/Bair strength, but on her entire moveset). Marth has had a better combo game because of his sourspots; now Lucina can join in too, but one must intentionally be going for a sour because they'll be much harder to get. And this whole "arm hitbox shouldn't be a sweetspot" thing makes sense from a realism point of view.

Other easy decloning methods here can include the old idle stance, different Uspecial angles (Crescent Slash anyone?), the older animations and speed for Dancing Blade, and she keeps Dair (with a bigger spike hitbox than Smash 4) as Marth gets his old Dair back (but weaker and slower, not frame 6) because it's sexy and Melee players love it. And then her and Chrom and can share Final Smashes, just as they share Aether in FE13. This easy declone could have still had the "Echo" status.

 

[Arthur97]

She is very useful and she may not be lesser in Ultimate. But the thing is, as it stands, why should she not be inferior? It's literally Marth EZ-mode. You're right that it would require a declone.

Here is how I can visualize it with low effort from the development team. Marcina usually has three hitboxes on any given attack, but rarely four. The centers of these hitbox spheres are located on the 1) body (if it exists), 2) arm, 3) hilt, and 4) 2nd half of blade. Lucina can have Marth's sourspot on the arm/body, then good damage on the hilt and 2nd half of blade (think Lucina's Fair/Bair strength, but on her entire moveset). Marth has had a better combo game because of his sourspots; now Lucina can join in too, but one must intentionally be going for a sour because they'll be much harder to get. And this whole "arm hitbox shouldn't be a sweetspot" thing makes sense from a realism point of view.

Other easy decloning methods here can include the old idle stance, different Uspecial angles (Crescent Slash anyone?), the older animations and speed for Dancing Blade, and she keeps Dair (with a bigger spike hitbox than Smash 4) as Marth gets his old Dair back (but weaker and slower, not frame 6) because it's sexy and Melee players love it. And then her and Chrom and can share Final Smashes, just as they share Aether in FE13. This easy declone could have still had the "Echo" status.

But since they didn't do that, "EZ Marth" still needs something besides being easy.

 

[Vipermoon]

But since they didn't do that, "EZ Marth" still needs something besides being easy.

Yep, they didn't and they won't be. So what do you propose that "something" should be (in future balance patches on just Lucina)?

 

[Arthur97]

Yep, they didn't and they won't be. So what do you propose that "something" should be (in future balance patches on just Lucina)?

Does it matter? They clearly don't seem to care so it's just setting myself up for disappointment.

 

[MERPIS]

Who do people think that will be Marcina's worst matchups?

 

[Vipermoon]

Good news: https://twitter.com/KuroganeHammer/status/1068367851906523136

Lucina had a character model multiplier in Smash 4; this is what made her physically smaller. However, this is the lazy method. It also made her arm slightly smaller, as well as the body hitbox radii on her attacks. These differences were slight, but existent.

Now their character model multipliers are equal yet she's still smaller, which means, like KH said, they took the time to create her hurtboxes the right way.

 

[Locuan]

The countdown until Ultimate is still weighing heavily. Especially now. Ugh, gotta focus on grad school apps and not think of Ultimate for now.

Now their character model multipliers are equal yet she's still smaller, which means, like KH said, they took the time to create her hurtboxes the right way.

This is actually really cool. It would be interesting to see if there's other really small differences that are still unnoticed.

 

[DrCactus]

New game, same Lucie.
It's good to be back.

 

[Arthur97]

Speak for yourself. Though I may be doing better with her this go around.

 

[DrCactus]

I meant its good to be back at smash boards again lol
Although it is nice to see less landing lag for aerials

 

[Vipermoon]

Things I noticed:

- Marth and Lucina are the same size/height.
- Lucina no longer slides with walking Jab and Utilt
- Because of #2, Lucina moves forward with consecutive Ftilts and Utilts like Marth does/did.

So basically, more than ever, they are the same character.

 

[Arthur97]

Things I noticed:

- Marth and Lucina are the same size/height.
- Lucina no longer slides with walking Jab and Utilt
- Because of #2, Lucina moves forward with consecutive Ftilts and Utilts like Marth does/did.

So basically, more than ever, they are the same character.

Just wonderful. It seems almost every bit of news just makes things worse. Do they really care so little? Even more of a clone than before and less personality than Daisy and Richter.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Well, World of Light has made me a Marth main, so I'm glad Lucina is the same as Marth. In fact, I wanted Lucina to be the same as Marth before the Everyone is Here announcement.

 

[Vipermoon]

Well, World of Light has made me a Marth main, so I'm glad Lucina is the same as Marth. In fact, I wanted Lucina to be the same as Marth before the Everyone is Here announcement.

I haven't started WoL. Without giving spoilers, why would playing it make you want to main him?

 

[Arthur97]

Well, World of Light has made me a Marth main, so I'm glad Lucina is the same as Marth. In fact, I wanted Lucina to be the same as Marth before the Everyone is Here announcement.

If you want to play Marth, play Marth. Don't revel in Lucina fan's misfortune.