His neutral A feels and looks so awkward, neutral B is spammy

[ripa9]

But they're Charizards most important moves... meh, kinda lame character. I'm still playing as him for now, because I took the time to learn to use him...

 

[FatSlapper]

I like his neutral air, his forward and back air are more awkward in my opinion. And I'd have to agree to disagree with his neutral b being spammy. It's just good. I guess me personally I find the armor on rock smash boss, flare blitz is amazing, his fly is risky, but definetly rewarding, and armor on his up smash I believe. Not lame at all sir

 

[ripa9]

His other moves are just way too laggy. I just played against smash spamming Lucina, I had no way of punishing her moves, because she started and got out of them so fast and Charizard just can't get there on time. Couldn't do much neutral B, because her dash is just that good, she get's away from everything. I simply couldn't get close to her because of her smash spam. Char's back and forward air just aren't long enough, she could always roll away. I don't recommend using this character, it's simply way too slow, neutral air is the only not so laggy move, the rest of them suck. And his moves don't even have that much range and power. Propably the same as Lucinas. Who would want to play as a slow, rangeless Lucina with fire breath? Yeah, I can take on noobs anytime, but not the noobs who has learned to time their smash spam with quick characters.

 

[The Real Gamer]

His other moves are just way too laggy. I just played against smash spamming Lucina, I had no way of punishing her moves, because she started and got out of them so fast and Charizard just can't get there on time. Couldn't do much neutral B, because her dash is just that good, she get's away from everything. I simply couldn't get close to her because of her smash spam. Char's back and forward air just aren't long enough, she could always roll away. I don't recommend using this character, it's simply way too slow, neutral air is the only not so laggy move, the rest of them suck. And his moves don't even have that much range and power. Propably the same as Lucinas. Who would want to play as a slow, rangeless Lucina with fire breath? Yeah, I can take on noobs anytime, but not the noobs who has learned to time their smash spam with quick characters.

You could have saved yourself a lot more time if you simply said "I don't know how to use Charizard."

Its all good though he's not for everyone.

 

[ripa9]

I'm pretty sure I do know how to use him. When I get hit, I can usually clearly see there's nothing I could've done. I can see my mistakes too, but I'm not complaining about those.

If you think Charizard is useable, tell/show me.

 

[lcampoy8]

You could have saved yourself a lot more time if you simply said "I don't know how to use Charizard."

Its all good though he's not for everyone.

Sounds more like "I don't know how to play this game properly."

Seriously if you cant fight someone who does nothing but spam smash attacks then its not the character it you.

 

[jinwhite]

His other moves are just way too laggy. I just played against smash spamming Lucina, I had no way of punishing her moves, because she started and got out of them so fast and Charizard just can't get there on time. Couldn't do much neutral B, because her dash is just that good, she get's away from everything. I simply couldn't get close to her because of her smash spam. Char's back and forward air just aren't long enough, she could always roll away. I don't recommend using this character, it's simply way too slow, neutral air is the only not so laggy move, the rest of them suck. And his moves don't even have that much range and power. Propably the same as Lucinas. Who would want to play as a slow, rangeless Lucina with fire breath? Yeah, I can take on noobs anytime, but not the noobs who has learned to time their smash spam with quick characters.

I get where you're coming from. Lucina is imo a hard match-up for Zard, because Zard's slow, hard hits are the easiest for her to counter or just punish. I think what you have to try and do is play aggressively and focus on your grabs; can't you get close & avoid her smash spam just by rolling more?

Nair won't feel so awkward if you train with it. You do have to be kind of precise with it but I like how it hits both in front and directly behind Zard. I also don't think neutral b (flamethrower) is too spammy of a move (though I'm glad you didn't say flare blitz) - I like to use it to try and rack up damage while edge guarding and then punish the recovery if possible. I don't know the game well enough yet to list all his advantages over Lucina but I'll get back to you.

& to everyone else posting... it's gonna be a lot more helpful to post replays or strats on how to use Zard than just bash the guy for saying Zard is bad...

EDIT: another thing that might help you get in close and grab that Lucina - roll canceled grabs. Apparently Zard's grab range is increased a good amount if you can get the technique down.

 

[The Real Gamer]

& to everyone else posting... it's gonna be a lot more helpful to post replays or strats on how to use Zard than just bash the guy for saying Zard is bad...

I have a hard time taking anyone who calls Zard a "slow, rangeless Lucina with fire breath" seriously. It's one thing to think a character is bad, but silly analogies like that just come across as a bit trollish.

Regardless I'll be glad to post some of my vids/results when I get home since you asked OP. I've had a ton of early success with this character. I just legitimately think you don't understand how Zard works and I'll gladly help you out in that department.

 

[ripa9]

I get where you're coming from. Lucina is imo a hard match-up for Zard, because Zard's slow, hard hits are the easiest for her to counter or just punish. I think what you have to try and do is play aggressively and focus on your grabs; can't you get close & avoid her smash spam just by rolling more?

You simply can't play agressively with him. Rolling doesn't work, characters like Lucina EASILY time their attacks to punish your rolls. You don't have the time to do an attack after a roll. Neutral air sometimes works there, but when your opponent is fast and going all over the place, no that doesn't work either. And obivously, after you start trying rolling+grabbing, your opponent starts doing it too, so then the situation is 50-50, BUT opponent has again the advantage of simply being faster and less laggy.

The thing to do with slow characters is to "camp", space yourself and wait for the good opportunity to land a hard hit, but when your opponent is doing that too with a character that is faster, has longer range and almost as powerful moves, you simply can't do anything, you lose.

That's how I see their differences. Charizard has laggy claws, tail, head, his whole body. Lucina is smaller, faster, with a powerful, long sword. I just don't see how Charizard would get around that.

Nair won't feel so awkward if you train with it. You do have to be kind of precise with it but I like how it hits both in front and directly behind Zard. I also don't think neutral b (flamethrower) is too spammy of a move (though I'm glad you didn't say flare blitz) - I like to use it to try and rack up damage while edge guarding and then punish the recovery if possible. I don't know the game well enough yet to list all his advantages over Lucina but I'll get back to you.

& to everyone else posting... it's gonna be a lot more helpful to post replays or strats on how to use Zard than just bash the guy for saying Zard is bad...

EDIT: another thing that might help you get in close and grab that Lucina - roll canceled grabs. Apparently Zard's grab range is increased a good amount if you can get the technique down

I mean like I said, Nair is a good move, but it doesn't feel like an attack, at least not as satisfying as one. You just roll and bump your opponent a little. Forward air is what you would expect from Charizard, but the hitbox is just so small, that it's easliy blocked and punished. When you're close enough your opponent, he's already expecting it.
And yeah, only beginners spam his side B...
I will try practicing that roll cancel grab.


And please, if you have good videos demonstrating how Charizard would actually be useful, do link them.

 

[lcampoy8]

EDIT: another thing that might help you get in close and grab that Lucina - roll canceled grabs. Apparently Zard's grab range is increased a good amount if you can get the technique down.

Uh... have you even tried roll canceled grabs on charizard? Its EXACTLY the same range as grabbing during a dash.

 

[ripa9]

Uh... have you even tried roll canceled grabs on charizard? Its EXACTLY the same range as grabbing during a dash.

Yup, seems like it.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Unfortunately Youtube doesn't want to upload my videos so I apologize OP. Only evidence I have of my success thus far are the results from a recent 16 man online tournament that I won a few days ago: http://challonge.com/Sm4shOnlineTourney Also after using Zard exclusively for the past few days my For Glory win% is around 90% for my past 100 games. I'd post a pic of that but apparently the Nintendo network is down... Not that For Glory w/l really means anything.

What problems are you having specifically with the character? Approaching? Punishing? Defense? All of the above?

 

[Spinosaurus]

What problems are you having specifically with the character? Approaching? Punishing? Defense? All of the above?

All of the above in my case. I really want to practice with this character but he feels so different from Brawl, so I'd love some tips!

 

[ripa9]

Unfortunately Youtube doesn't want to upload my videos so I apologize OP. Only evidence I have of my success thus far are the results from a recent 16 man online tournament that I won a few days ago: http://challonge.com/Sm4shOnlineTourney Also after using Zard exclusively for the past few days my For Glory win% is around 90% for my past 100 games. I'd post a pic of that but apparently the Nintendo network is down... Not that For Glory w/l really means anything.

What problems are you having specifically with the character? Approaching? Punishing? Defense? All of the above?

I guess approaching and characters with range. Because Charizard has none at all. It's ridiculous that we still don't have any good videos. I'm not blaming anyone, I'm just pissed people keep saying he's good, but I just don't see it that way. And I'm pretty sure when people start posting more videos, I'm still not going to be convinced. Because it's pretty clear that Charizard has no chances against a good sheik/marth/zzs/etc. If a Charizard player wins, it's propably because of his opponent's nooby mistakes. And that's just not fun.

 

[Smaugfan]

I would like to ask since it was said (Spinosaurus) that Charizard in the new game feels different from Brawl? Just how so?

As far as having problems against Lucina, she appears to me from video to be a blend of Ike with the sword range, and the speed of coming close to Zero Suit Samus. Which when I played Brawl, I felt confident in letting Zard fight nasty ZSS. You have to wait for them to come to you. They will. They love to fast combo and can overwhelm Zard, but you got to do your sidestep dodges often and also use down smash to force them back away from you some. I would use flame breath in spurts to disrupt momentum when I can. I am starting to see more short hops now in gameplay with a few Charizard players in videos so that is a good sign. Maybe people are having to adjust playing Smash on the 3DS controls. If you have a fast character as an opponent, it would be also good to do some grabs and dash to regrab.

Folks said the same thing in Brawl that Zard seemed too slow, but over time people found ways to step their Zard game up. The game just came out, and folks who remain dedicated to Zard will be playing much better in about a month or two I think.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Good news! I finally figured YouTube out and am currently uploading 4 videos as I type. I couldn't upload all of them at once since they each take about an hour each to upload successfuly, but it's a start.

Folks said the same thing in Brawl that Zard seemed too slow, but over time people found ways to step their Zard game up. The game just came out, and folks who remain dedicated to Zard will be playing much better in about a month or two I think.

I think a lot of people just flat out have no idea how to play the character yet. If zard's as bad as some think there's no reason I should be doing as well as I have thus far, unless if I'm just that much better than evertone else which isn't the case considering I'm not a pro.

 

[Spirst]

I would like to ask since it was said (Spinosaurus) that Charizard in the new game feels different from Brawl? Just how so?

As far as having problems against Lucina, she appears to me from video to be a blend of Ike with the sword range, and the speed of coming close to Zero Suit Samus. Which when I played Brawl, I felt confident in letting Zard fight nasty ZSS. You have to wait for them to come to you. They will. They love to fast combo and can overwhelm Zard, but you got to do your sidestep dodges often and also use down smash to force them back away from you some. I would use flame breath in spurts to disrupt momentum when I can. I am starting to see more short hops now in gameplay with a few Charizard players in videos so that is a good sign. Maybe people are having to adjust playing Smash on the 3DS controls. If you have a fast character as an opponent, it would be also good to do some grabs and dash to regrab.

Folks said the same thing in Brawl that Zard seemed too slow, but over time people found ways to step their Zard game up. The game just came out, and folks who remain dedicated to Zard will be playing much better in about a month or two I think.

I haven't played Charizard extensively in this iteration but I was a huge PT main back in Brawl and I've noticed that his rock smash feels less viable now. I'm not sure what it is exactly but it feels more sluggish in comparison. It also feels as if his grab range was reduced a bit as was the KO power for his dthrow and the amount of time it takes for an input to register after the fthrow. The neutral air I believe had its range reduced and the bair, while possessing more knockback, feels to have more cooldown lag. The dtilt looks to have less KO power as well. Lastly, his flamethrower has more range initially but deteriorates faster than it did in Brawl.

I'm not positive how much of this actually correct as I haven't played Brawl in quite some time but this is what I've gathered from a few games as Charizard.

 

[ripa9]

I would like to ask since it was said (Spinosaurus) that Charizard in the new game feels different from Brawl? Just how so?

As far as having problems against Lucina, she appears to me from video to be a blend of Ike with the sword range, and the speed of coming close to Zero Suit Samus. Which when I played Brawl, I felt confident in letting Zard fight nasty ZSS. You have to wait for them to come to you. They will. They love to fast combo and can overwhelm Zard, but you got to do your sidestep dodges often and also use down smash to force them back away from you some. I would use flame breath in spurts to disrupt momentum when I can. I am starting to see more short hops now in gameplay with a few Charizard players in videos so that is a good sign. Maybe people are having to adjust playing Smash on the 3DS controls. If you have a fast character as an opponent, it would be also good to do some grabs and dash to regrab.

Folks said the same thing in Brawl that Zard seemed too slow, but over time people found ways to step their Zard game up. The game just came out, and folks who remain dedicated to Zard will be playing much better in about a month or two I think.

One of the biggest problems is that you can't do anything out of side steps, it's too slow.

Good news! I finally figured YouTube out and am currently uploading 4 videos as I type. I couldn't upload all of them at once since they each take about an hour each to upload successfuly, but it's a start.



I think a lot of people just flat out have no idea how to play the character yet. If zard's as bad as some think there's no reason I should be doing as well as I have thus far, unless if I'm just that much better than evertone else which isn't the case considering I'm not a pro.

Finally. I'm still not expecting much.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I would like to ask since it was said (Spinosaurus) that Charizard in the new game feels different from Brawl? Just how so?

In my case, Rock Smash carrying your momentum, long ranged grabs and gliding were a big part of my game in Brawl. I'm also still not used to the new FAir and UAir.

Of course, I wasn't in any means a good Charizard player (or a good player in general but let's ignore that for the moment lol), I merely used him in Brawl because I found him to be a lot of fun. I still do, but he just feels different here because of the above + new game changes. In retrospect, maybe saying "so different" was poor wording on my part, since it can apply to a lot of character. Let's just say I'm having a little difficulty trying to adjust to his changes.

Been using him online this whole day and starting to get the hang of him, though. Liking this character a lot.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Some of the vids are up while others are still processing. Keep in mind all of these are online so my reaction time isn't the best. I also made sure to only upload vids that were against quality opponents.

This one was against a very good Ness I came across in For Glory:

These were friendlies against a top 2 Brawl player in GA just 2 nights ago... Easily the best Smash 4 player I've played against yet. We were trading wins throughout the night.

This was Game 5 of the Grand Finals in the 16 man online tournament that I participated in a few days ago.

Small sample size but I will continue uploading more vids since I now have the hang of it.

This is my online For Glory 1v1 record atm. Doesn't mean much but if you take note of my last 100 games you can see that my win% has only gone up since using Zard exclusively.

Spoiler

This is a re-post of the results form the online tournament that I won exclusively using Zard throughout...
http://challonge.com/Sm4shOnlineTourney

Like I stated earlier if Zard is as bad as some think there is no reason I should be having this much success with the character since I am not a pro. The real answer here is that Zard has the tools to compete but most haven't figured out his toolset as of yet. The more I play the more I'm understanding this character and the more I'm confident that he has the tools to compete in this game.

 

[ripa9]

Your opponents were nothing like what I've faced... I don't see much spacing, timing and spamming. Believe me, those kind of players are much different. G&W, Marth/Lucina, Rosalina and DHD are the biggest problem for me. I'll wait for the next videos.


Alright, I just played against a way different Ness. His attacks were simply faster and even went through my best option, which was Nair. I did my slow move/dodge and Ness answered to that with a quicker one. In your 1st video, Ness is WAY worse with aerials, he gets most of them down really late (and still hits sometimes). When the opponent is actually good with timing, you're in complete disadvantage. Ness dominates the air game. With him spacing, you rarely hit with Nair and Fair's hit box is just awful and to properly do the lag-cancel, or whatever, you need to be too obivous with it and your opponent easily avoids it. I didn't save the replays though..

 

[The Real Gamer]

So essentially the only reason I'm winning is because my opponents are that bad... Oh okay.

If Ness is beating out your Nair/Fair then just get underneath him and punish with Up Smash, or you can even get creative and approach with a SH Rock Smash that will eat through any aerial he has.

 

[Xenorange]

Charizard's a monster, i can confirm this. He's my secondary main and i pull him out whenever i wanna mix things up with power instead of just using speed with sonic. Pm Charizard is IMO one of the better characters in the game, and I feel the same way about sm4sh Charizard. I don't lose very often with the Zard. He's good!

 

[Smaugfan]

I saw this new video today and the action is pretty brisk. Zard really shows some strong points. Even though Zard loses at the end, you have got to love the potential that Zard is a force to be reckoned with. I would like to ask, as it seems to be the first time I have seen it, but there is a backwards tail move while on the ground at 1:50 thru 1:51 in the video. That looks quite useful for surprise attacks to defend oneself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYavqneuNM4

Your opponents were nothing like what I've faced... I don't see much spacing, timing and spamming. Believe me, those kind of players are much different. G&W, Marth/Lucina, Rosalina and DHD are the biggest problem for me. I'll wait for the next videos.


Alright, I just played against a way different Ness. His attacks were simply faster and even went through my best option, which was Nair. I did my slow move/dodge and Ness answered to that with a quicker one. In your 1st video, Ness is WAY worse with aerials, he gets most of them down really late (and still hits sometimes). When the opponent is actually good with timing, you're in complete disadvantage. Ness dominates the air game. With him spacing, you rarely hit with Nair and Fair's hit box is just awful and to properly do the lag-cancel, or whatever, you need to be too obivous with it and your opponent easily avoids it. I didn't save the replays though..

The Ness character can be a problem indeed for Zards in Brawl and possibly carrying over to this new game as well. The one in the video above seems to not have used a lot of the PK fire for keep aways. If we Zardians can keep that at bay, we would have better chances. With the loss of the Brawl Forward Air for the blowback attack, I guess we will have to use that back air in its place. Try even doing that over the edge to mess up the Ness recoveries. That was one of the specialties of the Brawl Forward Air in that it would be reliable for messing that recovery up for Ness and Lucas.

On the Duck Hunt Dog, to me that character looks like a complex blending of problems from Snake in Brawl (with the thrown projectiles that wait for impact to release its damage like snakes grenades) and also something about DHD speaks of Ivysaur in the multi-hits. Which Ivy would beat up on Zard a lot in Brawl. If you think back on what you did against those characters to win, you may find some solutions on dealing with DHD. Rosalina...I don't know what to say about that one other than try what you do with Zelda players. The timing of Rosalina to do things seems to be like what Zelda did in Brawl for her timing of attacks. The Luma is probably the main obstacle and Zard's size probably will limit getting in without taking some hits to separate the two. Marth and Lucina can be dealt with with patience. Though I in Brawl usually let Ivy deal with the Fire Emblem folks, we have no vines to help this time.

I want to ask, has anyone tried to see if Flare Blitz has a hit box potential around Zard's body as he passes over? Not actually ramming into a character, but more like just above the head. Can the flames do anything passing over at a low position? Just a thought I had.

I haven't played Charizard extensively in this iteration but I was a huge PT main back in Brawl and I've noticed that his rock smash feels less viable now. I'm not sure what it is exactly but it feels more sluggish in comparison. It also feels as if his grab range was reduced a bit as was the KO power for his dthrow and the amount of time it takes for an input to register after the fthrow. The neutral air I believe had its range reduced and the bair, while possessing more knockback, feels to have more cooldown lag. The dtilt looks to have less KO power as well. Lastly, his flamethrower has more range initially but deteriorates faster than it did in Brawl.

I'm not positive how much of this actually correct as I haven't played Brawl in quite some time but this is what I've gathered from a few games as Charizard.

yeah I have noticed too in the videos that Rocksmash seems to have less range and effectiveness, even though looking larger than the rock in Brawl. I also noticed the flame breath doesn't last as long as in Brawl.

 

[errcs]

Nothing is more satisfying than trapping 3 guys in a flamethrower. If you think its 'spammy' you would hate to play me.

 

[Action Kazimer]

Nice videos, Real Gamer. I play Charizard pretty similarly--albeit with less control at this point. Be fun to get some more Zard experience. I'm actually just north of ATL, so we ought to have a good connection if you're ever down for a few rounds.

 

[Cerberus290]

Oh wow. Two other people who play Charizard. I've been playing Villager and Samus more this game, but I was also somewhat interested in playing around with Charizard. I'm just north of ATL in the Roswell/Kennesaw area if anyone's looking to play.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Anyone who wants to play me feel free to PM me your FC. Mines right under my avy.

 

[Action Kazimer]

Hell yeah, local Charizards. I'm 1005-9002-5481. I'll add you guys when I get home.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Anyone who wants to play me feel free to PM me your FC. Mines right under my avy.

We'll need to play at some point. I think we can probably learn a lot from each other.

I should really add the rest of the community. Playing is how we're gonna learn things.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

We'll need to play at some point. I think we can probably learn a lot from each other.

I should really add the rest of the community. Playing is how we're gonna learn things.

Maybe I could kick your ass tomorrow

 

[underpowered]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYavqneuNM4

Great vid. I feel like Lucario is a pretty good match-up for Zard, but still.

Approaching from the air to recover with nair seems like something I need to do more of, especially with fast fall. I have a tough time if the opponent gets me in the air knowing how to recover. Down B is too predictable, I guess I should just time my air-dodges better, but I nair is definitely an option to keep in mind.

 

[The Real Gamer]

We'll need to play at some point. I think we can probably learn a lot from each other.

I should really add the rest of the community. Playing is how we're gonna learn things.

PM me your FC!

 

[ShadyWolfe]

Been playing Charizard a lot and he feels great he punishes rolls easy and he has great recovery and that up smash is so good. Getting juggled easily though and I don't like fighting Sheiks much especially on Battlefield. Flare Blitz is really strong but I prefer Dragon Rush as I can spam it more without getting all that damage but dang that move is good.

 

[Banryu]

I had the same problem with Sheik, and Greninja as well. Played one Greninja online who I slammed a couple of times (I think because he didn't know how to fight Charizard), but after 2 or 3 matches he got the hang of it and was smoking me. What characters make a good secondary to go along with him? I've been trying Lucina but I'm not great with her lol.

 

[Shog]

HOW do I PM someone on this forum? I am a Charizard Main right now and I would love to learn from others. I also have no hard feelings if I lose a Mirror Match.

 

[Smaugfan]

posting this here in case you may not see it in the thread dealing with Flare Blitz. There is something different going on with the move in two videos...

It has been said that you can't do a repeat FB like Pika could do with Skull Bash...yet however, something strange happened here. In this video, at 1:28 thru 1:32 you see a second FB in an opposite direction to get back to the stage after the player used the first one to go out from the stage. What happened here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6BhDjSNK8Q
how did a second come out?

There is also another video I had seen before of Charizard using FB, and while over the stage in the air, the usual horizontal path got altered. Somehow the FB was angled upwards above the normal flight path, but he still kept his body in the horizontal manner.

See it in this video at 1:57 thru 1:59. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jv7DqoB9kw

Looks like what we were used to seeing for Flare Blitz has now changed. There is more that can be done with the move, but how?

 

[lcampoy8]

You could do FB more than once in the air, ive done it multiple times. On the second video Mr g&w caused fb to move upwards.

 

[underpowered]

I don't like fighting Sheiks much especially on Battlefield.

Oh, gawd, the needle spam. They have no shame, either...