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Hi I'm new and need some help getting started

Ezzee

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 26, 2013
Messages
187
I like this thread because I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, maybe a little farther along because I can consistantly wavedash (don't know how to implement it though.) I main Sheik and my main problem is SHFFLing because dat short hop is hard.I can do everything else though. Do you min if I ask the people here for help too?
 

StoryTime

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 19, 2013
Messages
83
Location
DFW area, TX
Do you min if I ask the people here for help too?
I think it's okay.. go ahead I suppose.

As for my SHFFL progress, I figured out the L-cancel time for Falcon's aerials and I practiced SHFFLing for a bit and I've got it down somewhat consistently in practice. My fingers and arms start to ache from SHFFLing too much though XD but in any case at this point, should I start applying SHFFLing on low lvl CPUs? Oh, and I'm also having trouble being able to move around and SHFFL in conjunction, any tips for working on that?
 

rob_bot5

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 26, 2013
Messages
7
One tip I have is don't practice combos against lvl 9 cpus. It will teach you all the wrong DI to look for, among other things.

Also, if you see a pro do something that looks cool or works, by all means try it out!
 

StoryTime

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 19, 2013
Messages
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Location
DFW area, TX
One tip I have is don't practice combos against lvl 9 cpus.
Yeah I read somewhere on the forums that lvl 9 cpus are awful for practice and I also read that lvl 3 cpus are good because they mix up their DI somewhat akin to humans. Is that right? Would lvl 3 cpus be good to practice comboing and movement on?
 

Double Helix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
432
Location
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I think any lower-level computers are fine. I have no idea what DI each level does. But it is good to see that you made progress. Anytime you can practice shffling, do it. shffling is ALWAYS a good thing to work on. A huge problem with AI is they don't shield much. The timing of the L-cancel is different on hit, on miss, on shield, and on light shield, but it is good that you are working hard at it. Just keep working hard. I was in your spot not long ago. So keep it up.
 

StoryTime

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
83
Location
DFW area, TX
Yeah I'm pretty much stuck with practicing on CPUs since I don't have anyone to play with at home. I don't have a car to drive, much less a license or permit, and certain circumstances prevent me from going out to smashfests, local tourneys, and whatnot. I guess the best thing I can do right now is use this time to get my tech skill down until I can go to the aforementioned events and play actual human beings. Also, none of my friends play smash competitively, just casually, and brawl at that (not that I have anything against brawl, it's just that I choose to devote my time to melee instead).
 

rob_bot5

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 26, 2013
Messages
7
I don't know how good you are right now, but here are a couple things in that I wish I had thought of when I started:

-wavedashing backwards to edgehog (my god, I would always kill myself)
-ways off getting back on the stage from the ledge
-definitely learn the timing and range of every characters' recovery moves (at least!)
-off stage edgeguarding

I dunno if you are already past that stage or what, but I hope that helps
 

StoryTime

Smash Apprentice
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I haven't practiced much advanced movement or edge guard stuff as I've mainly been working on SHFFLing. I know how do wavedash, I just need more consistency. Plus like I mentioned, I don't have anyone to play so idk if I even can practice edge guarding well or recovery. I still need to practice DI... well, pretty much everything XD but I think SHFFLing and movement are the most important. Also, since I plan on maining falcon, should I be looking into moonwalking when I get into movement?
 

Double Helix

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 23, 2012
Messages
432
Location
Southern Illinois
Nah. Moonwalking only really has 3 uses as Falcon. It looks awesome, you can grab the edge (which can be done by wavedashing), and moonwalk bair for days. It is good to do, but not at this point. You mostly need to get the skills that transfer between characters down. Dash dancing, wavedashing/wavelanding, L-cancelling, shffling, and since you don't have people to play (like me), watch a bunch of videos and listen to the commentators that are good. Also on twitch, the channel meleeitonme has some good footage of Mango breaking down the more intricate stuff that happened in some of the top matches at EVO.

Just remember that movement is probably the biggest part of the game and it is why Melee is different from the other fighters out there. In the midst of all this work, take some breaks, and have some fun. There is no point in doing all this work if you do not have fun. It is a good idea to try to find at least one person in your area that you could meet up with to play sometimes. I have only faced a high-level player twice and it was the same guy. The first time, I was about as new as you and got four stocked the entire time. I played him just recently and mostly got two-stocked, but I also took some games. So I guess the most important thing for you to maybe read through would be this:

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-improve-a-compilation.106060/

It is quite lengthy, so take don't try to read it all at once. Find a section or two that applies to you,if any at this point, then work on it. It wasn't the thread I was looking for, but its good. I am NOT going to another castle. It can stay there for all I care.
 

Comatose

Smash Apprentice
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Jan 20, 2013
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147
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My group of friends actually started out on brawl (myself included). We were all casual players but it was like our favorite group thing to do.
One day, one of my friends suggested we play a bit of melee, just for nostalgic purposes. We had fun so we started playing a few melee matches in addition to brawl every time we hung out.
Then, the friend who had first suggested melee upped his competitive game, and started doing some fancy (but simple) stuff, and that's what sold my entire group on melee.

Basically, if your friends would rather play casual brawl than melee, they just need a bit of convincing ;) its always great to have people improving competitively as you are. Cuz almost every match will swing either way (so nobody is discouraged by losing 24/7) and everyone improves. So my advice, try to convince your friends to play with you, and hopefully they love the game as much as you.
 

Rokutaro

Smash Rookie
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To help you get rolling a little faster would be to study videos. That's gonna be about 30% of you getting better. A really good falcon to watch would be: hax$ and silentspecter. Write down all their techniques and habits and just let it slowly get into your game. Trust me it will come. If you have nobody to practice with dont worry I don't either and I can still beat alot of people out there because I have. Just practice all the techniques on the CPU in both training and in vs. once you get conftirble with your style and techniques face two CPU on 9 to get your aggression up and your focus. If you have any other questions just ask me and I will help you the best I can. Good luck
 

Double Helix

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To help you get rolling a little faster would be to study videos. That's gonna be about 30% of you getting better. A really good falcon to watch would be: hax$ and silentspecter. Write down all their techniques and habits and just let it slowly get into your game. Trust me it will come. If you have nobody to practice with dont worry I don't either and I can still beat alot of people out there because I have. Just practice all the techniques on the CPU in both training and in vs. once you get conftirble with your style and techniques face two CPU on 9 to get your aggression up and your focus. If you have any other questions just ask me and I will help you the best I can. Good luck
Lol. Silentspectre is so good. But he is actually not that good to learn from. Darkrain is probably a much better Falcon to LEARN from. SS is super good, don't get me wrong, but he just understands his opponents and does many things that other Falcons would frown upon if they did not know him. Otherwise, I agree with most the rest of your post. But really, do not face two level 9 cpu's. It is a bad plan unless you plan on working your doubles game (and who wouldn't? doubles are awesome) and don't want to lose if your partner didn't do well.
 

Massive

Smash Champion
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Something that springs to mind with all this SHFFLing talk, if you're not doing aerials with the C-stick, I highly recommend it.

It lets you do things like jump in one direction and attack in the other without losing momentum. It also makes things like run-off aerials easier to execute, since you don't have to move the main control stick as much.
 

Double Helix

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This has to be the largest wall of text I've seen in my life.
Sorry man. It is useful. Just take what you need at the time lol. It is really awful to go through all of it.

Something that springs to mind with all this SHFFLing talk, if you're not doing aerials with the C-stick, I highly recommend it.

It lets you do things like jump in one direction and attack in the other without losing momentum. It also makes things like run-off aerials easier to execute, since you don't have to move the main control stick as much.
That is good generally good advice. There are some characters that are better off using the A button, and it is always important to do what you are comfortable with. That said, be opening to changing to things that are just overall better, but if it just feels wrong, you will always do better when you are comfortable.
 

Iron Dragon

Smash Lord
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If you're playing Fox and plan on sticking with Fox (which would be a good idea), I suggest the following 3 things to learn

1. Dash dancing- If you don't know what dash dancing is then look it up, but if you do, go to FD and start on the left side of the stage, and DD from the left side to the right without messing up. If you mess up, re-do it, until you get it perfectly. Then do the same for the right side. Also practice different lengths of dash dances to help you get used to/know different lengths and also to be able to use them all effectively. If you need help with dash dance lengths you can go to Pokemon Stadium and use the lines on the stage as markers. Say you want to start at line A and end at line B and dash dance between them without going any further.

2. Learn to L cancel, but do it slowly. Apply steps to your process. If you can SH consistently, then try doing a nair with it, but don't L cancel. Build up your dexterity in consistently doing SH nair, then once you get it down, try adding in a fast fall. After you get that, add in the L cancel. Things like this are usually done easier in steps rather than applying it as one swift motion. After you get down a basic standing in place nair, try doing it while moving. If you can't then you can also apply the same steps to doing it while moving as you did with in place.

3. Dash cancel grabs and actions after nair. I'm going to assume you also know what dash cancel grabs are, and they can often times be hard on the hands as well. If needed also do this in steps. Practice quickly going up from your dash first, then applying Z after you feel you have enough dexterity to do that quickly.

As for actions after nair, I'm talking about dash dancing away from your opponent after nair or bair, and so on. As I mentioned up there, it's important to be able to use DDs/Fox's general speed to get out of most situations.

The learning order of everything else for Fox after this is, for the most part, arbitrary. Wave dashing isn't a completely integral part of Fox's game, or even Falcon's since you said you might switch to him, but it is excellent to learn for overall advanced play of course.

EDIT: I see you're practicing Falcon. If you are, I would still take all of these steps if I were you. The only thing I'd really change is when learning L cancelling and such, use moves such as fair (knee) and bair for Falcon instead of nair. Learning Falcon is like learning a space animal if they had no shine and had ****tier moves.
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
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Messages
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I highly recommend it. It may be weird at first to move your thumb down there but the rewards are well worth it. Being able to move and attack interdependently is very helpful. Falcons aerials are pretty much all his moves. Having full control is very helpful for his combo game.
 

Iron Dragon

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Using c-stick for most things helps you adjust to things like buffer roll. Roll with c-stick, and so on.
 

StoryTime

Smash Apprentice
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DFW area, TX
I can see the advantages to using C-stick for aerials like popping knees/bairs while going in either direction but should I always be using C-stick for non-nair aerials? I shouldn't have any problems with it if I play around with the C-stick for a couple hours since I L-cancel with L, which is a lot easier than I thought it would be. Having my left hand control the "FFL" in SHFFL is helpful so I don't have to SH, aerial, and L cancel with the same hand ^.^ in any case, I'm guessing C-sticking aerials comes down to quickly moving the thumb to the C-stick and jamming it in the desired direction right? Oh, and C-sticking will make uairing easier since its hard to SHFFL a uair with the control stick and A button (IMO)
 

Cereal Rabbit

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Watching a lot of tournament matches/streams/high level players is a great way to set goals on your level of play. Watch videos from Evo, Apex, Zenith, RoM, KoC, Pound, etc...
 

StoryTime

Smash Apprentice
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Watching a lot of tournament matches/streams/high level players is a great way to set goals on your level of play. Watch videos from Evo, Apex, Zenith, RoM, KoC, Pound, etc...

Actually, it was from watching tourney matches on youtube (so graciously uploaded by VGBootCamp) that got me into competitive smash XD watching those matches made my eyes sparkle and I started thinking "I wanna do thaaat" and here I am! It was great hearing about legendary smashers of new and old like Mango, SKen, M2K, and Armada, and of course, Wobbles' commentary is legend.
 

Cereal Rabbit

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Yeah bro. 80 percent of smashers who stay plugged into the community and tournament scene get better. I'm sure after watching tournament play styles, you're way better than how you used to play say a year ago.
 

StoryTime

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Yeah bro. 80 percent of smashers who stay plugged into the community and tournament scene get better. I'm sure after watching tournament play styles, you're way better than how you used to play say a year ago.

Well a year ago, I had no idea what competitive smash was and I just spammed fsmashes with Marth on FD XD ahhh fun times.
 

Iron Dragon

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I don't really think you can learn a lot from high level play because there's too many intricacies involved in their decision making that are difficult to be able to pick out specific good things at times.

If you DO watch high level play, watch the most fundamental players as possible. The unfortunate thing is that not a lot of those types of players exist anymore.
 

Double Helix

Smash Journeyman
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I don't really think you can learn a lot from high level play because there's too many intricacies involved in their decision making that are difficult to be able to pick out specific good things at times.

If you DO watch high level play, watch the most fundamental players as possible. The unfortunate thing is that not a lot of those types of players exist anymore.
Honestly while he may not learn a lot from the matches themselves, but the commentators tend to talk a lot about good spacing and various things that some players set apart from others, like Mango controlling space without throwing out moves. In any case, the commentators help a lot when it comes to knowing what is going on in a match. I find it most hopeful if you don't watch the match to look for the outcome, but look for the stuff that you are specifically working on, and assessing the situations in which they are used. Sometimes this means watching the same match a few times, just so you can see the situations. And pausing may be required sometimes. And sometimes the commentators may say something about it. That is how I made most of my progress, since I have only faced this one guy twice in the past year I have been playing. Engaging in videos is useful, just watching them is not as much.
 

StoryTime

Smash Apprentice
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*bookmarks thread* alright I'll read this over the span of a couple weeks. Also, I'd like to just say THANK YOU to EVERYONE who has given me help, tips, advice and the such thus far. It really helps me out when I practice and I can already see "the results of my training" (XD oh shounen jump~). Of course I still have a billion things I need to learn about, but right now I'm focusing on the task at hand. I hope I can meet all of you sometime in the future.

Oh, and both in general and pertaining to CF, how often should I be using B moves besides for recovery?
 

Comatose

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In my experience all his b moves are quite punishable under most circumstances. If anything, side-b combos into the knee, maybe some use for down b and up b OOS (I'm not sure though, since I don't play falcon).
And as for falcon punch.... I guess if puff misses a rest or you break a shield.
 

Iron Dragon

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Honestly, not much. Falcon's B moves are less than spectacular. Most times that raptor boost can be used to cover multiple situations, you'd be better off using down smash. Falcon can't really reaction tech chase with anything besides grab.

This is the only problem I have with Falcon is that I feel like he's player based more than any other character. He takes a lot of work compared to the payout in comparison to other high/top tier characters where you can practice basic tech skill things. And if you don't have much player experience you're not going to do super well with him at first. When you DO however he can become a pretty good force as all it takes is knee at 50 and you get extreme advantage almost anywhere on the stage.

So Falcon is a lot of prediction/hard reads when you're going for setups to kill. Otherwise you mostly want to play a solid neutral game, and attempt to bait your opponent into running into your aerials, and catch them off guard with hard hits. That's the name of Falcon's game. Hit them hard, and hit them fast.

As far as watching videos for things about spacing...why not just learn that yourself over time? I honestly think it's better to just play. Play A LOT. Play until your hands bleed. Okay don't do that but you get the point. Play the game, record your matches, and watch and review them. Study your mistakes. Study your strengths and try and find places to improve them further etc.
 

Massive

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It has actually been my experience that newer players can get reasonably competent with Captain Falcon faster than a lot of other characters (with the notable exception of sheik). His bread-and-butter setups are all pretty static behaviors that you can learn by yourself and play by flow-chart until you have internalized it all enough to play more thoughtfully.

I know a lot of beginning falcon players practice juggling CPUs as long as possible with a combination of nair and uair.
This leads into the uair > knee combo that you see in almost every falcon match. Anecdotally, Darkrain used to practice juggling the sandbag in the Home Run Contest as far as possible to get an understanding of the physics of it all; he doesn't usually use the C-stick and jumps with the stick though, so your mileage may vary, but it's still an interesting option to think about.

Additionally practicing L-cancelled stomps is also something you can do by your lonesome that will pay off big later. Try to predict rolls/techs and stomp them or follow up a successful grounded stomp with a knee. You can also practice the Gentleman in it's various forms (A, Z, A+Z is the one most falcons around here use), as it will let you land low aerials against shield without much fear of reprisal.

There are a LOT of other things to practice as a beginner/by yourself that I'm obviously not thinking of (I am not a falcon main, after all) but those are the most obvious things that spring to mind.
 

Ziodyne

Smash Ace
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The very first combo I learned with Falcon was dair -> knee

Maaan, good times.
 

TerryJ

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Alright, so I've been practicing short hopping for a little while now, and I can short hop fairly consistently... if I'm just standing in place and spamming the jump button... My problem now is being able to apply that consistency with aerials, then eventually adding in the fast falling, and lastly the L-canceling, but as of now, how should I go about practice short hopped aerials? Just spam short hop aerials around FD?
I personally like to hit Bowser a lot to practice pivot SHFFL's and grabs. Put in a second controller and pick Bowser. Set the game mode to infinite time, handy cap turned on and damage to 0.5 (You can do 0.1 with debug mode). After you choose the stage go to Bowsers controller and while holding UP on the Control Stick hold down X + Y + START for three seconds. If you do it right the stick at the bottom left of the pause screen will move to the default state and in game Bowser should be crouching. He won't be going anywhere now so practice getting your speed and consistency down and make sure you can mix up your timings otherwise people will be able to read you.
 

StoryTime

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As of now, I can SHFFL pretty consistently but not while running around so I think that'll be a good way for me to practice some dash dancing and moving SHFFLs. And might I ask, what do you mean when you say to mix up my timing?

Edit: I also learned the timings on the fast fall-L cancel for not hitting and hitting, too.
 

Iron Dragon

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At this point that isn't even what you need. Once again learning moving SHFFL'd aerials is much more important overall as Falcon, and since he has good run speed you can usually choose good times to DD away from people if you feel in danger.

I would very highly advise taking the steps I told you to take (but of course I would say that lol), and then play against people. I do not advise taking higher/advanced steps for the time being. You really just need to play the game more than anything. Play the game and let things become muscle memory, focus on the intricacies later when things have become muscle memory. You shouldn't complicate the learning process.
 

Double Helix

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To add to what Iron Dragon has said, when you play against people, focus on doing well what you have worked on. Even though I could wavedash consistently within a few days, I couldn't do it consistently in a match for a month or longer. Focus on doing what you need to get committed to muscle memory correct during a match. Even if you lose, as long as you improve, all will go well (even if that improvement is slow).
 

Iron Dragon

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To add to what Iron Dragon has said, when you play against people, focus on doing well what you have worked on. Even though I could wavedash consistently within a few days, I couldn't do it consistently in a match for a month or longer. Focus on doing what you need to get committed to muscle memory correct during a match. Even if you lose, as long as you improve, all will go well (even if that improvement is slow).

Right, I definitely agree with this and when he gets there he should take this advice. The only reason I'm saying for him to play is because other people come in telling him to work on things that are more specific to making wrong choices, when how can he know wrong or right choices if he hasn't played people?

It's always important to play to learn. But more than anything, it is important to learn the fundamentals of the game, and the fundamentals of your character. When people take the wrong advice is when they develop bad playstyles and bad playstyle habits that become very easy for players with better understandings of the game to exploit. You wouldn't tell somebody to waveshine up smash if they didn't know what waveshine even was, and so on. I'm giving a generic example here but I hope it works and gives the right idea haha

@StoryTime: I would highly advise reading the thread "Drastic Improvement" by Umbreon. It is currently titled "Drastic Procrastination" for lol reasons but it is a thread about improving. Don't let the thread scare you, but if you REALLY are about improving a lot and are serious about it, then I'd at least give that thread a read. Take it in pieces of course, reading that much at once is long, but even just following and keeping the bullet points he makes in mind can help you learn faster.
 

TerryJ

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And might I ask, what do you mean when you say to mix up my timing?

Edit: I also learned the timings on the fast fall-L cancel for not hitting and hitting, too.
What I mean is when you throw out the Aerial. If you constantly throw out a Knee or Stomp the soonest possible frame people will pick up on that and stop everything you do. This personally happens to me and I regret not learning how to mix up when I attack sooner.
 

Double Helix

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And I will apologize for the amounts of walls of text you are going through because of this thread you started. But we really do love this game if you can't tell XD Anyways, you should be having fun.

@Iron Dragon: Do you think you could like that thread to him? I am kinda lazy.
 

TerryJ

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And I will apologize for the amounts of walls of text you are going through because of this thread you started. But we really do love this game if you can't tell XD Anyways, you should be having fun.

@Iron Dragon: Do you think you could like that thread to him? I am kinda lazy.
I actually have that thread open so here you go. It's a very good read.
 
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