Heracross for SSBB!

[lanky_gunner]

cool, it has been a long time since i have seen this thread. anyway, bowserlick, that is a good moveset. if i may, can i put it on the front page?

 

[Bowserlick]

Of course. Feel free to add to it if you want.

 

[lanky_gunner]

just added it dude. if you finish it, notify me and i will post the rest of it.

 

[The rAt]

How the heck did I get here? Oh well, might as well put my two cents in the jar...

One question: Why?

The question is twofold. First, why do we need another Pokemon? Granted, its been said that there is no Pokemon representation in the heavier class of fighters (what constitutes heavy, anyhow? Where are we drawing that line?), which I agree with, but why does this game need Pokemon representation in the heavier class of fighters? The Earthbound, F-Zero, Metroid (assuming, of course, that Z-suit Samus and Normal Samus are the same character in two different transformation modes), Donkey Kong, and Yoshi series have only one character included, and countless other Nintendo games have no characters included at all, but we need a Pokemon in every weight class? Now don't get me wrong, I love the Pokemon games. I'm on my third time through Ruby as we speak. But the problem with Pokemon is that only a select few of the creatures in the Pokemon games are actually characters, the rest are all concepts. That is, they are species of creatues, much like Goombas, Metroids, or Like-Likes. Therefore, the necessity of their inclusion hinges upon their ability to produce characters which have unique personalities, something which the game (albeit not necessarily the anime, but the characters are taken from the game, not the anime) has not included into the creatures themselves, with a few exceptions (the Pikachu from Yellow, the Mewtwo from Red/Blue, ect.) has seldom even attempted. I recently saw a suggestion that Red/Ash from the Pokemon Red/Blue be included. I thought that was an amazing suggestion, because he is an actual specific character who even returned for a brief cameo in Gold/Silver. But as of yet, I just haven't seen any justification for the inclusion of any more Pokemon, given the provision that if there were, they would fall into the heavy weight class, besides the fact that you (the generic SWF poster) happen to like Pokemon, because there are at least as many people in the world, in this forum, or on the development team of Brawl who happen to feel the same way about generic franchise X, which unless it is the Mario series, has less representation than the Pokemon series. The question stands; Why do we need another Pokemon? Why do we need a Pokemon in every weight class?

Secondly, assuming we can establish that Brawl actually needs another Pokemon, why Heracross. A better question would be why a Heracross, because unlike Mewtwo, Pikachu, and Jigglypuff (excluding Pichu, because he was shamelessly included to promote his attempted rise as the new Pikachu of the second gen Pokemon), there is no one Heracross that stands out. Therefore this Heracross would be just a generic Heracross representing the whole of the species. What warrents the Heracross species from representation above all of the other countless species which do not have playable characters yet? So far I've heard reasons which all revolve around the fact that the people in this thread happen to like him. Good for you. But that doesn't make him better or more deserving than anyone elses favorite character, because your like/dislike of him is purely subjective, and therefore there will be at least least as many people in the world, in this forum, or on the development team of Brawl who happen to think the exact same thing about generic pokemon X. Therefore, if you want to be taken seriously in your support of Heracross, list some things that make Heracross unique from every other Pokemon that don't fully depend on your readers agreeing with you before they read your post. Question stands: Why Heracross? What makes him unique over every other Pokemon?

I don't mean to pick on Heracross, as I could easily post this on every "X Pokemon for Brawl" thread out there, but that would take way too much time, and I happened to be reading this one.

And who knows, perhaps there are some splendidly logical reasons why more Pokemon, and why Heracross should be included, which I have failed to consider, in which case I am curious how my 'why' questions are to be answered. But the truth is, I haven't seen those answers yet. And "X Pokemon rox!" is not a reason, it is an opinnion. Later.

Andy

 

[kaid]

For weight classes, each of the 3 major franchises has a heavyweight except for pokemon.

On the last pokemon poll on this site, Heracross came in 5th, and was the most popular second-gen choice.

If Sakurai WAS basing his choices on pokemon generatioins, therefore, Heracross would be the pichu replacement.

 

[Bowserlick]

Pichu is the answer to all your questions. Do we need another pokemon? Well, it is a safe bet to say that Pichu might get the boot. So I think a pokemon should take the empty spot.

Pichu is not a popular anime character. Pikachu, Mewtwo, and Jigs are sure. But Pichu violates your theory.

 

[lanky_gunner]

thanks for your words the rAt, and it is cool to see you on my thread. however, i will answer your question.

first, the heavyweight factor. i am not saying that every series needs a heavy fighter. we have so little right now, really just bowser, ganon, and dk. and pokemon is a popular franchise for nintendo which will probably get more rep. in brawl. so i basically killed two birds with one stone.

and Ash did have a heracross in the anime, so heracross had a bit of involvment in it.

but the biggest argument for heracross more me is that not only would he be another heavyweight that smash, at least in my opinion, needs, but he would be a great and unique fighter for brawl. i mean, bowserlick posted a great moveset, and when i have more time, i can create one. heracross has moves like megahorn, which no other pokemon has, and rock slide, which proved to be a cool move when bowserlick posted it. and, heracross has wings, so you can see a recovery. so if i haven't fully answered your question, refer back and i will explain as much as i can again.

 

[The rAt]

See, the last three posts gave some good arguements. That makes me very happy.

As far as Pichu leaving, I hope to the eternal sunshine of a spotless mind that you are right, but the truth is we don't know. If Pichu leaves, I agree that it would make sense to replace him, and that it would make sense to replace him with a heavy weight, but that is my personal opinnion. The truth is, one could argue that four pokemon was too much for Melee, and they should use Pichu's spot to put in a character from a completely new franchise. So, my question is, why another Pokemon over a potentially new character?

As far as heavy weight characters go, that is true that Zelda and Mario both have heavy weight characters. But do all of the three major franchises need heavy weights? Couldn't they include heavy weight characters from new franchises instead of including them from Pokemon, Zelda or Mario? Granted, if they take out Pichu, kaid has listed a few good reasons why Heracross should be included over just any Pokemon, I'm just not convinced on my first point, that we need another Pokemon. Personally, I'd rather see included new characters from new games then using the same franchises again. However, realistically speaking, if Pichu is ommitted they will probably include 2nd and 3rd gen Pokemon, which means at least two more, so I suppose it doesn't matter what I want.

In any case, rep points to the three of you for good posts. Later.

Andy

 

[kaid]

heracross has moves like megahorn, which no other pokemon has...

Serebii disagrees.

Pokémon That Learn Megahorn By Level Up in Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald/Colosseum/XD:

No. Pic Name Type 1 Type 2
#111 Rhyhorn
#112 Rhydon
#214 Heracross

Pokémon That Learn Megahorn By Level Up in Fire Red/Leaf Green:

No. Pic Name Type 1 Type 2
#034 Nidoking
#111 Rhyhorn
#112 Rhydon
#118 Goldeen
#119 Seaking
#214 Heracross

 

[lanky_gunner]

alright, he was one of the ORIGINAL learners of megahorn.

now, i agree with you, the rAt, that other characters should get in before heracross, and that pichu was a waste of space. but, if they had to put a pokemon from each generation in, or a set number of pokemon are getting in, i think heracross would have great potential as a fighter. and he fits in a few areas about "representation".

 

[Black/Light]

So, my question is, why another Pokemon over a potentially new character?

Because the character is fun and unique? I mean, WHY should you really care if a character added is from so-and-so series if they are unique and fun? I would have Heracross over Doc (Clone) anyday if you ask me.

And Heracross, in the 2nd gen, was the first and only to learn Megahorn (A bug attack that can take M2 out in one hit). They gave it to other pokemon in does later gens.(3rd and most likely 4th)

 

[kaid]

...I find it amusing, that heracross was merely a reccuring write-in in the initial poll-thread, but as soon as I pointed out it had 10 votes (woop-de-do. Lucario had 40.) AND WAS THE MOST POPULAR SECOND GEN REP, suddenly everyone gives him a second look, and starts calling him popular!

 

[The Franchise]

I was actually wondering if there was a Heracross thread on the forum and what do you know? It appears.

I could just say that I support Heracross because he is my favorite pokemon and leave it at that. However there are several other reasons.

First, off Heracross's appearence just calls out to me that he would fit in Smash Brothers. Heracross has a look that is completely different than any other character in the game so far. He's a two legged insect but still has the body and shape of a fighter. Where else could we get one of those?

In terms of the game contribution himself, there are proabily a ton of more popular pokemon choices that can be brought up and argued for inclusion in brawl. However I think Heracross did make a significant impact in the pokemon franchise. Back when I played the very first games (Red and Blue) one of things I disliked was how weak the majority of bug pokemon were. Plus despite the fact that they were suppose to have a type advantage over physic pokemon, none of them were really good at it. Then along came Gold and Silver with it Heracross. Here was a new bug pokemon with good stats and the uniqueness of also being a fighting type. Plus, while having a weakness to fighting types, Heracross also had a way to fight them with his Megahorn attack. To me Megahorn was the first and one the few good bug type attacks and I will always remember the shock of seeing Heracross take out a physic type in one hit with it for the very first time.

Finally, there is the issue of how he would handle in the game itself. Bowserlick, I really like the movelist you came up with. It's detailed, well described, and shows some good thought. A while back I created a much less detailed movelist on another thread and I figured I might as well put it here for whoever is interested.

Moves:

B: Fury Attack Heracross lashes out with his horn getting in quick multiple jabs on the opponent. Each one would do a bit of damage however after a few moments the move itself wears off.

B > : Take Down Heracross charges forward a short bit ramming into whoever's in front of him. That person would be knocked back a bit and take a fair amount of damage. However, in hindsight to this, Heracross would also take a bit of damage from the attack when he collides with someone.

B ^: Horn AttackUsing the small wings on his back, Heracross would fly up into the air a short distance hitting anyone in his path with his horn. Heracross would go stright up instead at an angle making it a half decent third jump recovery move for him.

B v: Counter This would be similar to Marth and Roy's move from Melee. Time it just right and Heracross can block an attack on him and strike back at the opponent. This would only work for physical attacks and weapons and would not work on projectiles or items being thrown at him. The unique thing about it could be the amount of damage it deals. It would be proportinal to the type of attack that was used aginst him. If a small low damaging attack was blocked, counter would only deal a small bit of damage. However if a more powerful one was used, say Falcon Punch, Heracross would end up dealing a lot of pain.

Smash Attack: Megahorn Heracross's horn would begin to glow for a few seconds. Then, with the aid of his wings, he would zoom forward across the screen ramming anyone in his path and sending them flying.

Etc: Heracross's A, air, and grab attacks would all involve him using his arms and horn in various ways. His symbol would naturally be a pokeball and his stage would be whatever one they use to represent the pokemon game. Also, if Kirby sucks him up, Heracross's blue horn would appear on Kirby.

Not very good although a few moves are coincidently similar to Bowserlick's. Anyway, that's my long winded two cents on the matter.

 

[Black/Light]

^^^When did that happen? From what I have seen when it came down to the 2nd gen people have always said that Heracross, Sneasile and Scizors where the best picks. . .

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

ON TOPIC: ^^ The above moveset is great

OFF TOPIC: Does anybody but me think that Heracross bares a resemblance to Beaklon from the Monster Rancher series?

 

[kaid]

^^^When did that happen? From what I have seen when it came down to the 2nd gen people have always said that Heracross, Sneasile and Scizors where the best picks. . .

...And none of them got mentioned very often.

Now look at the poll. Heracross has twice the votes of Meowth!

 

[Black/Light]

...And none of them got mentioned very often.

Now look at the poll. Heracross has twice the votes of Meowth!

Well thats why I said "when it comes to the 2nd gen". No pokemon from that gen are as popular and well known as Blaziken/ Deoxy and Lucario because that wasn't a popular gen. . .

(LOL at Meowth lossing to Draganite and Heracross)

 

[kaid]

(LOL at Meowth lossing to Draganite and Heracross)

LMAO at Meowth losing to Pichu Bros/Plusle&Minun

 

[DokturSea]

Heracross, eh? I DID go through a Heracross phase way back when. I guess it could work. I'm still a huge Munchlax enthusiast, but I wouldn't be disappointed if Heracross made it in.

 

[The rAt]

Black/Light, don't misinterpet me. I'm not picking on the Pokemon series. I love the Pokemon series. But the ratio of interesting characters to characters included in the Smash Bros. series, when compared to the same ratio in other games is uneven. Is Heracross fun and interesting? That would be a matter of opinnion, and because there are 300+ (what's the count now?) Pokemon which are all fun and interesting to someone, and the point I was making is that if you want your opinnion to be taken seriously, you need to demonstrate that he/she/it is more fun and interesting then all there rest. Establish and defend a criteria for evaluating what characters should be involved in Brawl that extends beyond your like/dislike of that character, then defend why X character meets those criteria. That's all I'm saying.

Therein, incase anyone missed this, is also why I don't support more Pokemon characters; because they aren't characters, they are species of creatures. It isn't a character unless it is a specific Heracross, rather than every other generic Heracross(es?) out there, it is a species. The Heracross Ash had in the anime is a good example. Personally, I'm shy of taking too much from the anime for obvious reasons, but I suppose Jiggly is out unless you consider the anime.

I guess all that to reiterate that this game does not need more Pokemon, Mario, or Zelda characters until they have four or five characters from every series. If they are planning on replacing Pichu with a half decent Pokemon (of which Heracross is, and taking into consideration his history in the anime), I'm certainly not going to object to that.

I'm beginning to feel like I'm overkilling my point now, so I'm going to let this one die and go bother someone else. Take it easy, all.

Andy

 

[Black/Light]

^^^ I was not calling you a pokehater, I was just asking WHY is it important where a fun and unique character comes from.

And the sure fact that Heracross is a mid-sized heavy character that would have 3 + jumps and use attacks no other charaters have makes him unique (which in turn can make him fun).

And why does it matter that they are "creatures" and not singler characters? ALL Heracross/ Sneasiles/ Scizors/ Pikas/ Blazikens/ Lucarios and so-on share something in common with other pokemon of their breed. So, in turn, their breed( and it's breed's character/ stats) is being reped when one of them are included in the game.

The same thing as a singler character if you ask me.

 

[The rAt]

You know, I wrote a whole page long response to your post Black/Light, but it really came across rather arrogant, so I deleted it. The truth is I respect what you're trying to say. And truthfully, in a perfect world where there were no space limitations I wouldn't have any objections to them including generic Pokemon X in Brawl. But keep in mind I wouldn't have any objections to them including generic Moose X, either. Because generic Moose X wouldn't have anything less than a Pokemon which would make it a unique character. Similarly, as a species, it would have it's own stats and attacks making it unique from the other characters within Brawl. The difference, as I see it is that every generic Pokemon X happens to have a legion of fans, and no one will lose any sleep over generic Moose X. Oh yes, and generic Moose X hasn't been featured in a videogame. Yet.

I guess the point I'd like to make is that the answer to any 'why not?' question here is always going to revolve around space and time limitations. That's why we'll never see Al Gore or The Powerpuff Girls in Brawl either. Well, that and they are Al Gore and The Powerpuff Girls. But the point is that Nintendo will never have enough time to explore all possibilities, so they have to justify the possibilities they do explore. So, if you want to win me over to the generic Pokemon X side (in this case, Heracross), then show me some criteria which it meets that generic Moose X, or generic Pokemon Y for that matter, could not (given enough imagination) meet. That is, something which warrants Heracross inclusion over every other single Pokemon, Mario, Zelda, ect. option which Nintendo could, and probably is, considering.

I guess part of the problem is that every for every unique ability a Pokemon possesses, every other pokemon of the same species has it too. Not only that, but at least a few other species can do it as well. So, while each Pokemon may be fun, in all honesty I'm having a hard time seeing anything unique about them.

I'm going to cut myself off here before I start down the road of *******ery, but I would like to stress that just because I disagree doesn't mean I don't respect the idea. I'll save that for Waluigi. Take luck, everyone.

Andy

 

[Slippy Toad]

This is actually a really good idea :D
Instead of Double Edge for Side B, I suggest Reversal:
Dashes quickly to the side - does more damage when you are a a higher percentage.
Heracross is a really good pokemon and is extremely popular on Netbattle and other competitive Pokemon battling. I always hate going up against him
I think he would be the best pokemon addition to SSB, with the possible exception of Jolteon.

 

[The Franchise]

The rAt: You make a very good counterpoint. I see Heracross as unique but at the same time, every other pokemon can be seen just as unique. And you are right, with enough creativity and imagination almost every pokemon could be created with a movelist and argued for Brawl. (With the esception of a few like Magikarp). Personally I don't see the problem with each pokemon being a species but that's just what I think. I respect your opinion and like that you explained so well instead of just saying that's it dumb or stupid. Good job.

Slippy Toad: I like your suggestion for a Reversal move. I was actually concidering putting that one in as well with my own moveset but only as a Down B move and a stationary one.

 

[Black/Light]

Well, The Rat, I respect you thoughts on the matter as well and see better where your coming from now. (I didn't happen to see this one page arguement you deleted thou. . . ).

I just want to clear one thing up. . . .

I guess part of the problem is that every for every unique ability a Pokemon possesses, every other pokemon of the same species has it too. Not only that, but at least a few other species can do it as well.

Heracross was the ONLY pokemon of the 2nd gen to ever learn Megahorn (It's sig attack) and there are a pretty good amount of pokemon that have attacks only fond in their breed/ family.

And if you want a pokemon that has attacks no other pokemon outside it's breed can do AND theres only one breed like it than look at Blaziken lol. Theres NO other fire/ fighting types and only Blazikens can learn attacks like Blaze kick.(Unique? I say YES!!! (^_^) )

But I don't/ didn't want this to become a big arguement because I really don't full that strongly about it. Heracross would be a cool 2nd gen pokemon rep for brawl imo and I will leave it at that.

 

[Eaode]

Rhydon can learn Megahorn in Ruby/Sapphire, just to let you know.

But Lucario pwns all with the Wave guiding bomb.

 

[Black/Light]

Rhydon can learn Megahorn in Ruby/Sapphire, just to let you know.

But Lucario pwns all with the Wave guiding bomb.

I said 2ND GEN (G/S/C not R/S/E). He was the only one in the 2ND GEN to learn it (Im well aware that they gave it to other pokemon in R/S/E just to let you know).

And Lucario does pwn (^_^)

 

[lanky_gunner]

see, heracross was very unique when he was introduced. it had the most powerful bug move ever, and only it knew it. plus, there are only a few select "heavy" pokemon. heracross fits because all the others are too big to be playable (i know size isn't a problem, but how could you play as snorlax, or onix?)

the rAt, you give very good points. yes all pokemon are unique in their way, but some give themselves an upper hand, like heracross. for example, i stated megahorn and powerhouse, but heracross can be given a moveset that can fit his personality. i mean, how many heavyweight in pokemon do we know could have 3+ jumps and a recovery. heracross has that advantage because of his bug nature, and his powerful wings. and if you really think about it, beedril in ssb64 is the only bug to be represented.

i know heracross's chances are low, but that doesn't mean he can't be a great contender for smash. i think he could be a perfect canidate.

 

[The rAt]

I have no idea what Lucario is. An early release from the upcoming 4th generation, perhaps?

In any case, I understand where both of you are coming from Black/Light and colbusman. You've both got very well thought out arguements, but I'm still not thrilled about the inclusion of any more Pokemon. However, this seems to me to be a good time to bow out of the issue and agree to respectfully disagree, especially considering, as has been said before, more Pokemon are inevitable. I applaud you for supporting a less mainstream character, and having thought out the reasons behind it. So, here's hoping Nintendo comes up with a formula which makes us all happy.

Good day to you.

Andy

 

[SupaSmashBrotha]

It is true the chosen one has finally come to save us all from more useless pokemon threads.

 

[bbb]

 

[Ophelius]

Poor pikachu. Ouch.

 

[Ophelius]

STOP WITH THE POKEMON THREADS!!!! As popular you people think pokeman is, there's about two hundred or so people bound to stuff you in your locker or duct tape you to the bathroom door. Dont ask. I used to like pokemon. They just beat the poop out of me and I got tired of it lol.

 

[bbb]

Ow, my not-double-post.

 

[Ophelius]

lol. I like ur pic tho. I think I'll show it to Pikaroth tomorrow at school. I think the ******'s IQ is in the negatives now. lol

 

[lanky_gunner]

bumping this thread cause no one has replied in so long and somebody created another thread like this

 

[dynamic_entry]

Heracross is fighting type/bug type...awesome. i like kabutops though. swords for hands = win. kabutops and scyther. that'd be a duel for the ages. kabutops clearly has the advantage though. quad weakness to rock. stone edge ftw.......uhhhh, anyways, heracross would be good i guess....

 

[Blade42]

heracross would be a good replacement for pichu. heracross can be very unique due to its typing and could be made a good fighter for brawl. if its decided that no 2nd gen will replace pichu but instead a 3rd/4th gen, that wouldnt be the worst thing ever and poke fans would still win with a new char

 

[NukeA6]

He would have been a great character for Melee. He's probably gonna end up in a pokeball in Brawl, Sadly.

 

[Conner]

Cobulsman I made another thread 4 Heracross but it wont let me answer people and it shows a lock on the side , what happened?


oh and I was the one who made that thread , sorry. I didn't see this one until today.
Great minds think alike I suppose.