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Help me beat sonic

WestCoastNinja

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 13, 2007
Messages
48
I have trouble with Sonic. Even a crappy sonic can mess me up with that hit and run tactic. A good Sonic could 3 stock my main.

Im pretty decent with Dedede(main) Kirby, Wario, and PT. Im ok with Bowser but he's not a serious pick for me. Im also trying out IC's.

So are any of the guys I play a good match for sonic?
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
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Dedede, and Wario give Sonic trouble. Well, you've gotta have pretty good control with Dedede otherwise you'll just be a large punching bag. I've had more trouble with competent Dedede, Wario, and Kirby than PT.

Bite > Sonic. Inhale or bite spring recoveries that come too close to the stage, etc.

Ask those respective boards (D3, Wario, Kirby) what to do lol.

Squirtle gives some trouble to Sonic if you stay airborne and avoid landing lag (easy nuff, right?), Ivy can bulletseed Sonic's D-airs and spring jumps, etc. If you wanna win with Charizard, space well. but again, it's better to ask people who main the characters what to do ;p
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
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Messages
9,007
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Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
I don't believe bite is as bad as inhale. Inhale has better range even though it doesn't lag as much.
I rarely get caught by bite mainly because I am overly defensive against Wario. its his airgame that gets me
 

WestCoastNinja

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 13, 2007
Messages
48
Not really. Incredibly fast character makes for a hard to hit target. I know he's not hard to ko, just hard to catch. I once ko'd a sonic with DDD's fsmash at 26%. That is ridiculous. xD

I tried Wario vs sonic earlier. I played terrible though so I need to try again when im at my a game. Right now the only character I think I can take sonic with is Kirby. Kirby just *****.
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
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Apr 3, 2008
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You just have to change your playstyle. Be more campy and make him approach.

All the crap that goes on at midrange doesn't mean anything when he's up close and trying to hit you. Missed D/U-smash is uberpunishable, Spring>D-airs are usually easy to punish, Homing Attack is easy to punish if you walk away and make it miss just slightly off the floor. etc.

Adapt.
 
Joined
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MasterHavik
Dedede should never lose to Sonic, like ever.
Hey, if DDD can lose Ganon, and Sonic can beat MK. The game make it possbile to beat any character no matter how tough or hard they are. So you can say if someone goes MK and your Sonic. You're screw on the dot, but will have a very hard time winning. And the same goes for DDD on thatmatter.
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
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DeDeDe is not a problem for sonic at all, u guys just suck.
I want to see the Dedede you play against.

I slaughter scrubby Dededes who don't know how to avoid lag and not leave themselves open to punishment but competent/campy Dedede mains are troublesome, or at least Vex.K was.

Edit:

Also want to see the MK's you play against.
 
Joined
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MasterHavik
DeDeDe is not a problem for sonic at all, u guys just suck.
Me to DDD is very easy for sonic. He slow and is a pretty huge guy. so most of your attacks have a 90% chance of hitting no matter who that DDD is pro or noob. And what do you think about lucario being a big match up for Sonic R4ze? I think he somewhat easy, but some his smashs are a pain to get a around of. He not that hard to beat with Sonic if you ask me.
 

memphischains

Smash hhkj'
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you guys must play against the worst dedede's int he world, and i thought we went over this when hella came out of no where and laid down the law

if a dedede player has the timing to grab you out of a spin dash, there goes 2/3 of your approach and 30 or so damage each time you try it. and if they can p shield your aerials then forget about it. you'll really have to play boston style hardcore.

EDIT - wait what? switching mains? nonononononon

sonic is the reason i play this **** game, if not id play melee all day
 

R4ZE

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
721
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Florida
the DDD i play, beats me a lot(kinda even), but that really just means he is a better player than me. and he know so much **** about ddd its unreal. every other ddd i play get wrecked tho completely and utterly(at tournies).


its ok if mk has an over powered move. so do a lot of characters, learn to play around them. its totally possible. DDD's fsmash kills people at like 30%, but its so easy to avoid if u know it, that it doesent even matter. thats how brawl works.

MK has a rigged and super ****ing fast downA smash, but if u learn to watch out for it.. its really easy to just stay out of that hit box. and other than that... MK really does have a limited assortment of killing moves.... so learn to avoid those select moves.

hitting mk really isnt that hard. its just like any other character find the right timing to strike.


a really great mindgame for any of sonic's dashes is to sit and charge, the opponent will be ready for u to release it at a normal time, but if u alter that and wait for him to like sheild and then release, it is ALWAYS possible to catch them off gaurd with it. just pay smart. sonic is not a character to just run in and use speed and power to dominate the match. he is a precision character.
 
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MasterHavik
In others words Brawl make it possbile for any character get beatn. You guys can go on all day about how much DD can do Sonic, but in the end Mr. Sonic has a 40% chance of beating a DD or an Mk. Also, I play good DD, and it not funy so you chill out memphis.
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
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I actually think it isn't as bad as people make it seem.
Considering its rather difficult to grab sonic out of a spindash.charge let alone the things you can do before being in grab range you really shouldn't be grabbed very often.

I do agree with them though that DDD does have an advantage (though in my opinion it would be around 55:45 but thats just my silly opinion)
 

HMD

Smash Journeyman
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what are u talking about DDD is not a problem for sonic seriously i three stoked a sonic with DDD and i dont use DDD ever
 
Joined
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MasterHavik
what are u talking about DDD is not a problem for sonic seriously i three stoked a sonic with DDD and i dont use DDD ever
u must had play a crappy Sonic sir. And no any character in thsi game is beatable. no one is no problem for anyone in thsi game. Why? Well, if DDD can fall off and die like everyone else then yeah he beatable. I would DDD has a lot good stuff over Sonic, but it still doesn't change the fact that DDD can still lose to good sonic. Get your facts right sir.

edit: woot!!!1 400 posts.!!! i'm so happy :D
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
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u must had play a crappy Sonic sir. And no any character in thsi game is beatable. no one is no problem for anyone in thsi game. Why? Well, if DDD can fall off and die like everyone else then yeah he beatable. I would DDD has a lot good stuff over Sonic, but it still doesn't change the fact that DDD can still lose to good sonic. Get your facts right sir.
Eh, I'll agree partly.

If you slaughter someone with a character you almost never use, 3-stock even, then there's either a huge skill gap (either you're too good and he's decent, or you're decent and he's a POS) and/or lack of matchup knowledge on the loser's part. Most likely, that Sonic player was a POS and has no idea how to fight Dedede.

Anyway, campy Dedede is troublesome for Sonic, since B-air will outprioritize your aerials (including spindash jumps, homing attack, F-air, N-air, etc) unless you're under or above him, and a well 'mindgamed' Inhale (eg, camp your landing) will catch you. Sometimes B-air will trade hits with F-air, but you'll deal 2 damage and eat like 14, or whatever D3's B-air hits, so it's bad to try to hit it head on.

Pivot grab can counter any of Sonic's "committed" approaches, like dash attack, spindash roll (if you're trying to hit D3 with the roll), etc. It also keeps him facing away from you so it's easy for him to do a SH B-air if you try to jump out of the spindash.

When done correctly, his CG is inescapable, too, unless you CP a hilly level.

Dedede, like most characters, have to change their playstyle to adapt to the Sonic matchup, otherwise, they'll do crappy.
 

ToonTetra7

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
46
Okay, I play as Sonic, I never face him. But there's one tip...
NEVER BE KIRBY!

His reach is rubbish :laugh: In fact, the worst in the game...Sonic just too quick. :p
 

ToonTetra7

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
46
What's wrong with Kirby? I always have a tough time hitting shorter characters like him.
Lots of my friends that are expierienced had hard times hitting Sonic with Kirby. I'm not really a good Brawl player - I learn alot from others :p

I never play as Kirby so really I'm listening to other people... I'm just trying to help. :lick:
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
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Lots of my friends that are expierienced had hard times hitting Sonic with Kirby. I'm not really a good Brawl player - I learn alot from others :p

I never play as Kirby so really I'm listening to other people... I'm just trying to help. :lick:
That's really just their problem lol

Kirby's actually not too bad against Sonic, playing defensively.
 

Greenstreet

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
2,965
Not many characters wud b playin smart by grabbin sonic excessively....As has bin said, his dash attack is way to hard to grab etc etc. so yeah, kirby has way better methods of taking sonic down.
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
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Not many characters wud b playin smart by grabbin sonic excessively....As has bin said, his dash attack is way to hard to grab etc etc.
I believe Yuna has said this once, but

if it's humanly possible, then assume it can be done.

With enough practice/talent, pretty much anything in the game can be easy to do.

My brother can grab me out of spindashes since I play Sonic alot, so I rarely use it as an approach if he's not already doing something because he can just reverse it and grab me.
 

Greenstreet

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
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True.
You could probably grab a mate and go into training mode and get him to dash attack over and over until you find an effective way to shield out or roll out for a grab. But then there is always the fake....there is always the fake.
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
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True.
You could probably grab a mate and go into training mode and get him to dash attack over and over until you find an effective way to shield out or roll out for a grab. But then there is always the fake....there is always the fake.
Even the fakeouts have their limits.

When I played against Ophelia, I asked him often if me feinting was actually having any effect on him, and he said no.

`.`;
 

darkNES386

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
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West Lafayette, IN Downers Grove,
Even the fakeouts have their limits.

When I played against Ophelia, I asked him often if me feinting was actually having any effect on him, and he said no.

`.`;
What are the different feints/fakes you use Tenki?

I know you're a big fan of the ASC and probably shield cancel it plenty. Do you ever start an aerial one and instantly cancel it by quickly releasing down and b?

What about spin dash>shield cancel>rolls from a stand still or running.

Empty Short Hops?

Side b taunts?
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
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Run > Side-B:
- shield cancel to:
- - run+runbased approach (grab, dash attack)
- - down-B
- - forward roll
- - back roll
- Run back>B-reversal
- Run forward > B-reversal > roll behind

ASC:
- release (lol yes, when you shield cancel enough times...)
- late shield cancel (release near ground)
- approaching shield cancel > roll behind
- shield cancel > runbased approach
- shield cancel > down-B


Screech stop feints (lol usually screwed up by him using dash attack)

I mean, I caught him off sometimes, but I guess some feints are less effective than others. On another note, I tend to jump backwards while charging ASC.

I guess I could have made more use of jump cancels.

I need to step it up and use more variety lol.

The thing is, he's not going to be rolling or dodging the conventional way to get out of my attack, since he's more expectant of certain reactions.

I'm just bad at this :[
 

R4ZE

Smash Ace
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Mar 19, 2008
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start ASC, jump cancel over the opponent, bair, and then immidiately execute a fsmash toawrds them when u hit the ground.

u can do a lot with ASC jump canceling... its just like grounded spin jump cancels really. except not as much momentum so easier to combo with and harder to punish with bair.


but those are some pretty nice mindgame approaches, i think i use all of those as well =)


why would u jump backwards for ASC? it usually works best to be kinda close to the opponent, gives them less time to react with powerful moves. i guess jumping backwards would allow more space, but it seems like it would barder to aim from far away as well..

i like to be just out of sonics F-smash range when i start ASC. its easy to be jumping toward them because charging SC stops all left/right movement solid. then i just wait for the timing, if they start a smash ill wait for it to finish, if they sheild i wait for them to cancel it, and if they do nothing i just go at them at sheild grab hight... so 2 hits, grab... makes it a difficult approach to beat... especially when used semi rarely so its not too predicatble.

BUT despite all that... somtimes it is good to jump back with ASC. i mean... its just playing smart man... u know what I'm talking about... i think there is a lot of times an opponent goes to attack me, and i just jump back out of his range and then ASC forward into his face. =)
 

darkNES386

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
1,339
Location
West Lafayette, IN Downers Grove,
Nice guys =) This is why Sonic requires so much work/depth to understanding.

@R4ZE you can jump backwards for the ASC to avoid an approaching attack... for example Marth's fair. I think that's why, for more aggressive opponents.

Oh... I'm not sure if you use this R4ZE/TENKI... but running behind / up to someone who likes to spot dodge allows for a perfect timed fsmash/down smash. The timing is so different from most other attempts that usually a campy/spot dodge happy player will always get leveled by it.
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
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Like I said in Umby's thread, the feints you use should differ depending on your opponent's tendencies/reactions to your moves. I was just being a stupid/bad player and continuing/banking on bad reactions from Ophelia that he would almost never do.

`.`; We should really move these discussions to their proper threads.
 

JayBee

Smash Champion
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I want to see the Dedede you play against.

I slaughter scrubby Dededes who don't know how to avoid lag and not leave themselves open to punishment but competent/campy Dedede mains are troublesome, or at least Vex.K was.

Edit:

Also want to see the MK's you play against.


IDK tenki, Sonic vs DDD is 50/50 to me. yeah, DDD can kill em at low percents, but if he throws out anything that misses, sonic should and can punish him with a combo, then the resultign tech chases will rack up damage. DDD has to camp, but Sonic can punish all of his moves, or at least bait and punish. Sonic is hard to KO due to speed, and agility, D3 is hard to KO due to weight. D3 can chaingrab Sonic for too long (I still believe this; i keep on proving this over and over) so that D3 has his main option gone. but i guess its all about skill. I main both chars to I feel like I can give my seal of approval on this one.
 
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