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HDTV and Brawl?
- Thread starter Ronin686
- Start date
Component cables do reduce the lag to a managable amount. I was able to play Melee without a noticeable problem, but there will always be a small amount of lag on an HDTV.
F8AL
Banned via Warnings
I have a 52'' HDTV and Melee looks and plays wonderfully on it.
Since I was fervently looking up on this subject just a bit ago, I felt like bumping this up.
The Gamecube and the Wii are only capable of outputting a 480i or a 480p (progressive scan) visual signal. 480p is known as "enhanced definition" (TVs that natively support it are usually called EDTVs). These are not HD signals, and no Wii or Gamecube game will have HD support.
If your HDTV/EDTV supports a native resolution of 480p, the video signal used by Wii/Gamecube component cables, then there will be no delay in the imaging at all and the game will play accurately. However, a good deal of HDTVs do not support 480p as a native resolution, and no HDTV uses a 480i native resolution.
Even if your HDTV does not use 480p as a native resolution, using component cables does significantly reduce the image delay, as a large part of the upscaling process is converting the 480i (interlaced) signal to a progressive signal to display onscreen. So yes, component cables help in that case. If your HDTV is equipped with a "game mode" use that as well.
http://www.hdtvarcade.com/hdtvforum/index.php?showtopic=4536&st=0
This is a highly informative guide on video game delay on HDTVs and is worth a read if it's a concern.
The Gamecube and the Wii are only capable of outputting a 480i or a 480p (progressive scan) visual signal. 480p is known as "enhanced definition" (TVs that natively support it are usually called EDTVs). These are not HD signals, and no Wii or Gamecube game will have HD support.
If your HDTV/EDTV supports a native resolution of 480p, the video signal used by Wii/Gamecube component cables, then there will be no delay in the imaging at all and the game will play accurately. However, a good deal of HDTVs do not support 480p as a native resolution, and no HDTV uses a 480i native resolution.
Even if your HDTV does not use 480p as a native resolution, using component cables does significantly reduce the image delay, as a large part of the upscaling process is converting the 480i (interlaced) signal to a progressive signal to display onscreen. So yes, component cables help in that case. If your HDTV is equipped with a "game mode" use that as well.
http://www.hdtvarcade.com/hdtvforum/index.php?showtopic=4536&st=0
This is a highly informative guide on video game delay on HDTVs and is worth a read if it's a concern.
Burning Lava
Smash Journeyman
Delay aside, it'd just be freakin' sweet to play in widescreen. I was trying to imagine how they would do that, because for an adventure title, it's pretty much just cosmetic to show more or less with wide vs. full frame. A fighter like this however, is very sensitive at the boarders. You know Nintendo will either do both or just full frame, so maybe while in full frame the camera will pull back more when a character goes aflyin', or more likely, the magnifying glass will just have to be used more, whereas in widescreen, you'll still be able to see your character out on the edge... at least a tiny bit more.
I don't know, it could work somehow. (Sorry about the long, ill conceived sentence.)
I don't know, it could work somehow. (Sorry about the long, ill conceived sentence.)
Croco
Smash Lord
Same..
No problems at all.
Burning Lava
Smash Journeyman
This seems like a good place to bring this up. Quick question.
1. In General, does Wii look better on a 32" LCD HDTV, than a standard definition CRT?
I'm thinking about trying to get a widescreen 32" CRT EDTV (480p native) but they are so impossible to find it's ridiculous.
2. What about widescreen 32" 480p native LCD (ED)TVs? Do they even exist? Or does being 480p native mean that it cannot be widescreen?
Oh well, guess I'll have to buy a 720p LCD HDTV, and be scaled down to 480p... even though the price is hardly even different between any of these options. Then there's plasma... nah.
1. In General, does Wii look better on a 32" LCD HDTV, than a standard definition CRT?
I'm thinking about trying to get a widescreen 32" CRT EDTV (480p native) but they are so impossible to find it's ridiculous.
2. What about widescreen 32" 480p native LCD (ED)TVs? Do they even exist? Or does being 480p native mean that it cannot be widescreen?
Oh well, guess I'll have to buy a 720p LCD HDTV, and be scaled down to 480p... even though the price is hardly even different between any of these options. Then there's plasma... nah.
Banksya
Smash Ace
It'd be an advantage to have widescreen.
Pit 42
Smash Lord
Thw Wii didn't have HD. Brawl won't either. Case is dismissed.
Widescreen support will be present, but will not be an advantage to anyone. It will show more of the screen, but you can bet the edges of the screen will remain consistent with what you would find on a CRT. I don't see how this isn't easily achievable.
maelstrom218
Smash Lord
1. That depends. An SD CRT without component inputs will have to run on regular A/V cables. The picture quality will suck. If you're running the Wii on a LCD, it'll probably have component inputs. . .which means you can run in progressive scan, which means vastly better picture quality. You have to figure out what the LCD's native resolution is, though.
2. 480p native doesn't necessarily mean no widescreen. It's just the fact that EDTVs are impossible to find. . .you're probably better off just buying a normal plasma/LCD.
Just a note here: you really, really want to be careful about buying an HDTV. Because HDTVs normally run at a higher resolution than Wii games (720p or 1080i compared to the Wii's 480p), the HDTV will have to upscale the signal from the console, which produces lag. This means any input on the controller will be delayed when displayed on the TV, anywhere from 1-2 frames up to a shocking 20.
In short: HDTVs cause lag, no exceptions. HD CRTs tend to do better than LCDs and Plasmas in terms of having less lag, but it's still there. DLPs tend to have the most lag (especially Samsung DLPs).
The solution? Go to whichever store you're going to buy the TV, lug along your Wii + component cables, put Smash in progressive scan, and see if there's any lag when you play. You don't want to spend $700-$1200 on an HDTV only to find that Smash is unplayable on it.
the_air_up_there7
Smash Ace
Jaja caveman and zulu coplained about the big 52 inch tv at our tourney and they said, "We can't play in that TV, it lags." 
funny ****.
funny ****.
Burning Lava
Smash Journeyman
Good points, and thanks for the response. It would be nice to wait, (and yes, I'm already thinking about lugging my Wii to the store for testing) unfortunately, I think I'm going to need something to play Mario Galaxy on before that... and other stuff before that. Oh, and yes, I will only be buying something that supports component cables. Hmmm.... A flat panel, 480p native, 1600:1 contrast, 32-37", and 16:9... ahh, the holy grail of Wii gaming. Does such a thing even exist? Heck, I'd take 1000:1 contrast for the rest of the goods. (At a fair price.)
Oh well, I'll keep searching.
Lag is a serious concern for gaming in general on older systems (the PS2 generation and younger, because the maximum signal was generally 480i), but I'm not as convinced that 480p produces as much lag as maelstrom suggests on TVs suited for 720p (if you use component cables). I think it shouldn't be too tough to find a TV that is capable of showing a 480p signal without lag using various modes. Granted, he seems to have done his research here, so I'm not going to reject his point of view.
One thing I am in complete agreement with him is trying TVs before you buy them. If you intend on playing any timing-sensitive game (such as music games, fighting games, etc), and you have grown accustomed to playing on CRTs, you WILL notice lag, and it will be extremely frustrating. It's the main reason I haven't bought an HDTV yet; I'm learning Beatmania IIDX on the PS2 and I don't want to deal with any lag. In my opinion, HDTVs still need to come a long way, and it's frustrating that it doesn't seem to be a huge priority. I find it hard to believe that gamers don't notice the lag, even if it's minimal. But maybe they honestly don't. My friends and I played 3rd Strike on an HDTV with slight lag. It made parrying and super links essentially impossible, but I seemed to be the only one truly affected by it (i.e., noticed it). I couldn't believe it.
One thing I am in complete agreement with him is trying TVs before you buy them. If you intend on playing any timing-sensitive game (such as music games, fighting games, etc), and you have grown accustomed to playing on CRTs, you WILL notice lag, and it will be extremely frustrating. It's the main reason I haven't bought an HDTV yet; I'm learning Beatmania IIDX on the PS2 and I don't want to deal with any lag. In my opinion, HDTVs still need to come a long way, and it's frustrating that it doesn't seem to be a huge priority. I find it hard to believe that gamers don't notice the lag, even if it's minimal. But maybe they honestly don't. My friends and I played 3rd Strike on an HDTV with slight lag. It made parrying and super links essentially impossible, but I seemed to be the only one truly affected by it (i.e., noticed it). I couldn't believe it.
Burning Lava
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, some people are just stupid or not observant. Here's something I found to be of some use on the topic.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558125
It put my mind at ease to some degree. Basically if your HDTV (non-DLP) has a good scaler, you shouldn't have more than 2, maybe 3 frames of lag, which is pretty darn decent, out of 60 in one second. Especially, if your opponent has the same lag. (i.e. two people in the same room on one TV) Apparently you can also get an external scaler to input your TV's native resolution. I don't know a lot about it yet, but supposedly it makes for zero lag. If that's the case, the only problem I can see with this is that these things are expensive for what you're getting. I haven't looked into it much though. Here's one. Edit: Maybe this isn't the right thing. I'm new to this wing of the research.
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=4173
Anyone know if these scalers actually solve the problem? The AVS Forum "experts" seem to indicate so. It would just make buying an HDTV less stressful to know that even if it doesn't work so great, you can fall back on an external scaler if necessary.
Also, supposedly even if your TV has a native res of 720p and you have to scale down to 480p, you usually don't have much to worry about. It's the conversion from interlaced to progressive that's the real killer. Component connection should seriously reduce the risk of lag by itself.
Edit: On second thought, I really am not sure if these scalers/upscan converters do 480p to 720p, or just really crappy 480i up to 720p... I think both, but I'm not sure what the limits are. It's supposedly just an awesome dedicated scaler that's super fast. Check out the XRGB-3.
http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-86-49-en-15-upscan+converter-70-1ic5.html