Gunner Match-Up Thread

[mimgrim]

Discuss Gunner's match-ups in this thread.

Some things to avoid/be aware of;

Arbitrary ratios. It's too early in the game's life to be assigning accurate ratios. Better to just state who you think wins, if you think it is by small margin or not (in words) and then explain why. Alternatively you could use a +/1 3210 system where +/-3 means big advantage/disadvantage, +/-2 means advantage/disadvantage, +/-1 means small advantage/disadvantage, and 0 means even with an explanation of why you think it is.

I won't be updating this post with what we come to dinnertime for this early metagame as MUs have the potential to change radically as it matures. Once we get into a more mature metagame I will create a new MU thread with better organization.

I won't be able to provide much practical application to this thread because of how my region currently handles Miis so anything I say is going to be mostly theory crafting on my part.

If you want a starting point then start with the Diddy MU.

 

[san.]

Special Choice: I think most are getting comfortable with their specials layout, but I think that it's required to be proficient with all 3 downBs. Bomb drop covers the gaps of grenade launch, but the reflector and absorber can help counter a few characters such as Mega Man and DHD. Even so, bomb drop is enough to overwhelm even projectile users, but it's still good to be familiar with them all.

Fighting against absorption/reflectors:

If you set up your projectiles before you approach, you have options against opponents that try to reflect it back towards you. Bombs/Grenades reverse the path that they took, so you won't be hit if you launch a grenade from above then attack to the side.

From my experience, it's difficult to avoid getting hit if your fair is reflected since it's so fast. It's especially dangerous if you use fair up close since a reflected fair can kill you at 100. On the other hand, using fair near max range is safe, even against reflectors.

For attacks such as PSI magnet and Bucket, opponents barely gain anything by absorbing a grenade before it explodes. Fair is also too weak for absorption to be worth it.

Diddy:
Recommended size: inbetween short and medium height, low weight.

Gunner doesn't have to play to Diddy's tune in this matchup. Gunner has to worry most about burst approaches with Fair and Uair before he can set up properly. Diddy's poor air speed hurts him since Monkey Flip is pretty easily shut down with bombs/nades and fair. Diddy has a lot of trouble offstage because of those same moves. We can safely fair whenever Diddy wants to monkey flip offstage, we can send bombs to the bottom of the stage to prevent upB recoveries, and we can uair if he goes high.

Gunner's goal is to seal off monkey flip and grabs and focus on sealing holes in his offense. On the ground, utilt covers any approach from above and fair covers in front. If there's space, you can set up grenades or bombs. Make sure to follow right behind the bomb, and slide towards the other side if he decides to roll through them. Dsmash is a great whiff punisher on the ground and can kill if Gunner's back is at the edge.

Diddy can rack up a lot of damage in juggle situations since uair covers our normals so well. We can only drift away, drift away with fair, set up bomb drops, or fast fall nair. Learning how to land it essential in the matchup. Avoid overextending yourself when going for the kill since that's Diddy's best chance to obtain some free damage.

 

[GS3K]

I think the matchup against villager is fairly even because have options to stop projectiles, but in close range, I think gunner has the edge. Jab, grabs and tilts/Nair are good for creating space.
Reflector and flame pillar can help gunner combat opposing projectiles.

moves that can be reflected:

• Bair
• Fair
• Fsmash
• Dash attack
• Timber
• Lloids

These moves will be sent back if reflected, Usmash just gets blocked out and will not damage villager if reflector is used on it.

You can probably use charge blast and vortex to heal yourself if they pocket it and throw it back, and grenade/missile/bomb if you want to get more offensive.

Here's a list of what pocket and reflector/vortex can do and who benefits more
= benefits villager a lot
= benefits gunner a lot
= can benefit both

• = not really significant
• Reflected toss = using reflector on a move villager pocketed and throws back at you.

With grenade, villager will always throw it back as if it were an uncharged grenade. You still don't want to get hit by it, because a tossed back grenade deals 15% damage to gunner. Reflected tossed grenade deals 21% to villager

Tossed back bombs deal 20-21% damage. Can't be reflected because that's in the same slot as reflector.

Gunner's fair pocketed does 10-11% damage. Reflected fair does 10-15% damage to villager. Absorbed Fair heals 10-20% damage (tested it in a regular smash and was able to get in between those numbers from point blank and mid range)

Tossed back charge blast deals almost 40% damage to gunner if fully charged. Absorbed heals 30%, and reflected back deals a whopping 60% at full charge. Kills villager at/near the edge if it hits, and can't be DI'd out of. If it gets pocketed again after being reflected, it deals 30-40%. Tossed back charge blast will not zero-to-death gunner at the edge, but can kill at higher percents.

Tossed back super missiles deal 19% damage. Reflected tossed missile deals 27% and goes back really quick.

• Reflected lloids deal about 10% damage. Tossed back and reflected deals 13%.
• Reflected pellets from Bair and Fair deal about 3-5% damage

Fsmash uncharged deals about 22% if reflected, 30% if fully charged (doubt this will ever be used for anything but edgegaurding low recoveries). When used as an edgeguard and it gets reflected, the ball bounces up, and will not hurt you. Can KO villager at higher percents.

Chopped timber reflected deals about 23% damage to villager. Pocket tossed deals 49% on gunner. Tossed and reflected deals 69% to villager. Both situations zero-to-death

Stealth burst cannot be pocketed, but villager will not take damage if pocket is used during the explosion

• The shot of lunar launch can be pocketed, and deals 13% damage to gunner if tossed. Reflected deals 16% to villager.

In terms of blocking out projectiles without using pocket/reflector, timber blocks just about everything gunner has except grenades. Charged and short hopped grenades can jump over the tree. Gunner's Fsmash goes through timber, but you're likely to get punished should you whiff with it.

Flame pillar stops villager's fair, bair, and lloids. Charge blast at full charge will always outprioritize a lloid in motion. Be careful, as this can give villager an opportunity to snag your charge blast.

In the air, villager's Uair comes out pretty quick if you're above, so you'll have to get your grenades and bombs out much sooner to cover you. When chasing with Uair from below, put a little distance between yourself and villager, because gunner's Uair should outlast air dodges and villager's Dair comes out quickly.

Offstage and edgeguarding, villager can send lloids and use fair/bair/pocketed projectiles if you try to come back at stage level. If you recover low, villager can drop Fsmash on you or chop a tree down over the edge, so your best bet is to recover as high as possible to avoid all that. Grenades can take out balloons in 1-2 shots. Gunner has bombs and missiles/fair to help edgeguard as well.

As far as killing is concerned, gunner kills villager in the 115-125% range, and can zero-to-death with a reflected tossed back charge blast or chopped timber.

 

[san.]

Flame Pillar or Stealth Burst against Villager?

Flame Pillar stops lloid rocket, but Stealth Burst should help a little with tree camping. I think missile is always good since you can follow it after launching and force the opponent to respond to it, but a simple lloid rocket destroys it in this MU. It may not be a bad idea to reflect the lloid rocket then respond with something of our own to cover Villager's counterattack. If we have bomb drop, flame pillar may be better for lloid rocket prevention, but if we have reflector, I think Stealth Burst will be more useful to prevent tree camping.

I think Gunner can edge villager out (slightly) with the reflector downB. Reflector is overrated in neutral, but it helps prevent truly damaging traps and helps us recover. It's also easier to reflect Villager's stuff than it is for Villager to pocket and use our projectiles against him. Once villager pockets something, we can just fight at mid-long range and zone villager out even more. Villager's fair/bair has better IASA frames than our fair and they can autocancel, but Gunner's fair is transcendent and has low landing lag. Villager won't be landing with those aerials very often unless it's a hop with 2 fairs or something.

 

[steelguttey]

played a good 2 hours against a ness today and take absorb. you need it really badly. when you get ness offstage all you have to do is nair him when he uses he doublejump and absorb his up b.

 

[wha-ha-ha]

I've been struggling a lot versus Shulk recently and would love to hear all of your thoughts. Note that this is coming from the perspective of a 3131 small player.

It seems as though the massive range of shulk's attacks, and especially his nair, force gunner to have to be extremely cautious out of respect for them and thus play a really intense camping game. The matchup seems to basically come down to chipping away with grenades and either getting a good smash attack read or getting them to ridiculously high percents such that a grenade can kill. The trouble is, at high percent and in a situation where gunner is forced into a camping game, shulk can just go into shield mode and effectively negate all of the character's already-almost-nonexistent kill options for large stretches of time, in which you end up just having to wait out the monado art's cooldown and continue chipping away hoping to not take too much damage while shield is active and get a kill later on. I play 3 stock 8 minute games, and they regularly come down to the last 30 seconds (with one even timing out earlier today) without any intentional stalling of any sort taking place. It feels like a serious uphill battle.

Does anybody else have ideas about this matchup and how to approach it?

 

[steelguttey]

fair against shulk is nice because it outranges into most things and starts comboes. one thing to note about shulk is that he has 0 options on the way down. if you can bait an airdodge you can get 1-2 uairs after hitting him with an uthrow.

 

[GS3K]

If he activates shield at high percents, I'd attempt to get him offstage with a smash attack read and edgeguard. I'll have to look into this more.

 

[Kodystri]

All I have to say about Mii Gunners MUs with Customs are:

Best MU against Top Tiers is Sonic while the worst is Yoshi and this is why.

Sonic llikes to be in the ground and not on the air. Gunner takes a lot of control on both as well as its quick speed. Grenades, Bomb Drop, Fair and Flame Pillar stops Spin Dash pretty reliably. Grenades is the least reliable because it can jump over Spin Dash, so you would have to time it earlier. Bomb Drop stops it as its always on the ground and puts Sonic in the air. Sure, Sonic can Spring Jump and Dair, but easily punished by Bomb Drop and Grenades. Also, because Gunner is hard to grab, Sonic has to rely on hard reads to kill Gunner. As long as you are not in his face, you are fine. Also, Sonic REALLY does not like to be in the air with Gunner around. Just do not get caught up in his mixups and you should be fine. This is all the BASIC information I have to say about Sonic. I could go on more and more about it.

Now on to Yoshi. This is by far Gunner's worst MU in my opinion. It is just... bad. Yoshi can DJSA out of Grenades, Eggs are a pain to deal with as it stops the Grenades, Fair, and stops Gunner's air mobility, which helps us zone better. Yoshi is incredibly hard to out zone. The Dino is always in our face when he is not egg camping. Because all of our zoning tools besides the missles are short to med range, this does not help either. When Yoshi gets in close, Nair is a complete pain to deal with as it is incredibly quick and stops many of our slow starting moves. However, we do have a few things for for us. Yoshi does not like Fair. He does not like being edgeguarded by Fair and Grenades. Fair and Grenades are a pain to deal with offstage, even with the Super Armor Yoshi has in his second jump. And if he ever dares to recover low, footstool him, simple as that. And he does not like being above us. Anything Yoshi tries to hit us from below is easily punished by Up Air. Basically, you have to be on top of your game to beat Yoshi. Just make the right moves, avoid the eggs and nairs and Yoshi's decently long range attacks.

 

[GS3K]

Yoshi, eh? I thought Rosalina was a much worse/more annoying matchup against gunner.

 

[Mic_128]

Seconding Rosalina being much worse than Yoshi.

also worth mentioning that if a Villager uses the rocket to ride into you, if you reflect it, they go riding off with it too. Great fun to edgeguard with, chasing them off the stage to reflect-block.

 

[Kodystri]

Yoshi, eh? I thought Rosalina was a much worse/more annoying matchup against gunner.

I constantly practice with a good Rosalina. Even after knowing the MU, he constantly struggles against my Gunner. We go about 50/50. Gunner can punish if Rosa tries to Gravitational Pull any of the projectiles. Sure Luma can absorb it, but can also hinder Rosa's ability to punish because Grenades will activate EARLIER because of Luma. Gunner also had no problems landing compared to other characters because B-Reversing Grenades and Fair really helps mixing up your landing options. Gunner can also kill Rosa faster than normal because of her lightweight. Last but not least, Rosa really struggles to land vs Gunner because of UpSmash and Uair. Again, this is basic stuff. Not going to go into much detail.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina is now analyzing the Mii Gunner at her match-up analysis thread. The Mii Gunner's discussion period will last until the end of 5/23, so if you have anything to contribute for the Rosalina vs. Mii Gunner match-up, now is the time to do so.

 

[GS3K]

@ mimgrim , would you mind if we moved to a weekly discussion of 2-3 matchups per week? I feel it'd be a bit easier to keep track of.

If necessary, should I make another thread or continue in this one?

 

[mimgrim]

I'm lazy and ****. So if you wanna create a new thread like that you can. Tough I think it wouldn't make much of a difference given the barren activity of this section.

 

[GS3K]

Alright, cool. Thanks.

 

[Kodystri]

This is all my ratios that I believe what is is(This is all with customs) and recommended movesets

: ???(Never fought a Bowser with Gunner and barely have experience with Bowser) 3113 or 3112
: ???(again clueless) 3112
: 55:45(don't let him get close basically) 3122
:???(Not enough Charizard experience) 3113 or 3112
: 55:45 3122>3123>3112>3113
:60:40(Make sure you have platforms or a fairly big stage to zone him out, be patient... ZONE HIM OUT) 3112>3111
50:50(Just keep your spacing against him and grab the banana) 3112>3312
55:45(Dongnado is a pain, but you can zone him out) 3322>3312>3122>3112
:???(Not much experience) 3122>3112>3111
55:45(Just be careful to not get caught by cans and Clay Pigeon) 3121>3111>3122>3112
:45:55(Reflector is a pain in the ass to deal with and Falco can put pressure, but you can force approaches with Absorbing Vortex, and recovery is predictable) 3123>3113>3122
:32:68(Gets past zoning easier than most characters and puts a ton of pressure since Gunner has punishable options(Grenades, Smashes, tilts) Jab locks are also a pain. Imo worst MU) 3122>3112>3123
: 60:40(Custom Ganondorf can easily down b over projectiles Just zone him out like every other MU and don't pick Battlefield) 3312>3112
:???(Have experience but no experience as Mii Gunner)
: 45:55(Nerf again, jokes aside, can put on a lot of pressure and hard to zone) :3112>3111
:???(No experience as Gunner) 3112?
: 40:60(Jiggs gives no fs about projectiles) 3112(don't use any other)
: 50:50 3112
65:35(Don't sleep on the MU though. FSmash and Grenades really makes it hard for Mac to recover) 3112
50:50 3121>3122>3111>3112
???(I would assume bad because Gunner can't kill) 3122>3123
55:45(puts on a lot of pressure once she gets in) 3112>3312
45:55(Puts on waay too much pressure when he gets in/grabs you) 3113>3313>3123>3323
45:55(Once gets in, super hard to get out of, plus capes are annoying) 3113>3123
50:50(Like Lucina, but worse) 3112>3312
40:60(Lemons, Blades, and Danger Wrap really hurts Gunner's zoning, plus Mega Man actually has great Anti_air options, which Gunner likes to be in the air)3121>3111>3112>3122>3113>3123
???(No experience as Gunner) 3112
(Small) 45:55(super hard to deal with) 3112
(Medium) 50:50(easier to zone out than small) 3112
???(No experience) 3112
40:60(As a Ness main and a Gunner main, Gunner can gimp Ness with Vortex, but Ness can heal a good bit from Gunners attacks, Hard to use Fair and Grenades fairly well.) 3113>3313
35:65(Another hard MU, Pikmin makes Grenades almost unusable and very small. Fair is almost unusable too) 3112
55:45(Can effectively zone her out unlike other zoners) 3112>3113
43:57(Very hard to deal with Hydrant and Pac-Mans projectiles, and Pac-man has close range out of face unlike Gunner.) 3112>3111
55:45(Can be zoned out, but Peach has a great Punish game, so be wary about it) 3112>3122
43:57(very hard to zone and catch, make sure you have Absorbing Vortex on) 3113>3123
55:45 3122>3123>3112>3113
45:55(Grab the Gyro and zone ROB out with your specials) 3313>3311>3113>3111>3123>3123
57:43(fairly easy to get through projectiles ,just watch out for Levin Sword and Arc Fire) 3121>3122>3111>3112
50:50(keep your spacing and spam Grenades and Fair. Bait the Down B and punish that) 3222>3223>3212>3213>(Evo Sets: 3122>3123>3112>3113)
60:40(keep your distance) 3111>3121>3311>3112
43:57(Basically don't let Sheik needle camp but at the same time don't let her get close) 3112>3312>3113
61:39(He is Really have a hard time getting in. Watch out for speed and Power Counter) 3112
(Hammer Spin Dash) 40:60(Hammer Spin Dash single handly makes this MU bad) 3112
(No Hammer Spin Dash) 60:40(Sonic has a really hard time getting in) 3112
???(No experience) 3123>3121>3122
50:50(Just don't get hit by Pocketed Grenades) 3111>3311
???(No experience) 3122
55:45(Hard for Wii Fit to approach) 3111>3113>3121>3123>3311>3313>3112
40:60(CAn easily get in) 3112
55:45 3112
45:55 3113>3112

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

You missed Diddy. Which is ironic since I was using Gunner to deal with Diddy prepatch. lol

 

[GS3K]

Gunner vs gunner is a chess match.

 

[Kodystri]

Gunner vs Gunner is 100-0 in Gunners favor. and Added diddy

 

[BigShad]

I was generally thinking about the Lucario MU, and even though I have no experience I've been thinking about what moves to bring theoretically.

Basically, bring Charge Shot, Flame Pilliar, Cannon Uppercut, and Reflector/Absorber. The down-b options can really be a pain for Luke to deal with (esp. reflector), and you can do some neat tricks with Flame Pilliar. Cannon Uppercut and Charge Shot are Gunner's best kill specials, which I feel you really need in this MU. Unless I'm wrong, which then feel free to correct.

Also in the custom moveset project, when they mean 1/4 height, that just means min. height, right? If it ain't then I'mma have to redo all these damn Miis.

 

[Kodystri]

I was generally thinking about the Lucario MU, and even though I have no experience I've been thinking about what moves to bring theoretically.

Basically, bring Charge Shot, Flame Pilliar, Cannon Uppercut, and Reflector/Absorber. The down-b options can really be a pain for Luke to deal with (esp. reflector), and you can do some neat tricks with Flame Pilliar. Cannon Uppercut and Charge Shot are Gunner's best kill specials, which I feel you really need in this MU. Unless I'm wrong, which then feel free to correct.

Also in the custom moveset project, when they mean 1/4 height, that just means min. height, right? If it ain't then I'mma have to redo all these damn Miis.

In my opinion, Grenades are a much better choice than Charge Shot.

 

[BigShad]

In my opinion, Grenades are a much better choice than Charge Shot.

Normally I'd agree that Grenades are best for most MUs, but you need to keep Luke's rage + aura in mind. Grenades are generally used for adding damage and snipe kills if you can read your foe's recovery, though the same can be said for the Charge Shot, only that it can kill earlier and also can be used for some surprises. Plus the F-Air into full charge shot combo is always nice.

I guess it really depends on how well you can read the foe.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

in the custom moveset project, when they mean 1/4 height, that just means min. height, right? If it ain't then I'mma have to redo all these damn Miis.

It means the height bar is 1/4th of the way full.

 

[BigShad]

It means the height bar is 1/4th of the way full.

[cussing intensifies]
I really wish the custom moveset project clarified that. The latest edition (that I know of) has been wonky as hell with some of these characters.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

4. Mii Fighters raise a few complications as they are not typical characters, but they do represent three complete, unique characters and are a substantial and important part of the game. In principle, to use a Mii Fighter a Mii must be created in the Mii Maker, the archetype of fighter (Brawler, Swordfighter, or Gunner) must be selected, the fighter is given a name, custom moves are selected, and then that particular fighter will take one of the 100 slots available for Mii Fighters. This is cumbersome, but the good news is that Mii Fighters can be imported from a 3DS just like other custom pre-sets saving all of that hassle. In terms of the hand-crafted Mii, the only parameters that have a gameplay effect are the size parameters (height and weight). These can be made by hand (or for the default sized character, the pre-installed guest Miis may be used), but in order to save time and to minimize the possibility of incorrectly setting sliders (since a small error in setting the 1/4 height slider will have a slight gameplay effect), we have provided QR codes of Miis matching the specifications used in this project. The same Mii can be used for every moveset matching the same height/weight parameters. The QR codes are below:

[collapse=Mii QR codes]

Mii Brawler (Smallest, Thinnest):

Swordfighter (1/4 Height, Thinnest):

Gunner (1/4 Height, Thinnest):

Brawler (Default Height and Weight, also feel free to use any guest Mii, ideally Guest A, D, or E for visual distinctiveness):

[/collapse]

If any TOs, for the sake of their own entertainment, wish to make fancier Miis or decorate the fighters with hats or outfits, they can go on ahead as it has no gameplay effect. It should be noted that the 3DS size slider is a bit wonky. You will need to set it between the first two marks. Setting it directly in-between is impossible; you need to err on setting it one tick "too high". Again, if that sounds imposing, just don't bother and use the QR codes... which is probably the best idea in the first place.

Taken from this page

 

[Ffamran]

If you're ever down in Texas look me up
If you're ever down in Texas look me up
Where the men are men and love it,
And the girls are sure glad of it
If you're ever down in Texas look me up

The Falco boards started their ongoing Mii Gunner matchup discussion, so if you're ever down there, look this thread up: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...gunner-the-good-the-bad-and-the-falco.410880/.

And if you just want to play against Falco players to learn the MU or just for fun, look this up: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

 

[Man of shame]

so does anyone think that this match up thread should be scrapped for a new one (it's kind of a dead thread) or needs to be completely revamped.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Mii Gunners out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Mii Gunner. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Mii Gunner match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/417453/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[Djmarcus44]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...oMZlbJXqKPtHEBFgA&sig2=LbV7poTesGSquIyG7u4mPA we are discussing mii and would love input

For clarification, the Mario boards are currently discussing their matchup with all of the mii fighters.

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, the Olimar board is now discussing the Mii Gunner matchup. Any input is appreciated.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I just posted my thoughts on Gunner's MU chart earlier tonight actually: https://twitter.com/CT_Chibo/status/719375060088266752

CT Chia recently made this matchup chart for guest size gunner with an unrestricted moveset. I am not sure why he has the Rosalina and Luma matchup as a -2 for Gunner. I am also not sure about the ratios for ,,,,,,,,,,, and .

 

[AEMehr]

Have you ever fought a competent Rosa? Most of your normal options are beaten out by Gravitational Pull, she falls out of smash attacks, and unless you can run Rocket Uppercut you are easy prey for dair. Even then I'm sure it probably trades.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Have you ever fought a competent Rosa? Most of your normal options are beaten out by Gravitational Pull, she falls out of smash attacks, and unless you can run Rocket Uppercut you are easy prey for dair. Even then I'm sure it probably trades.

Yes. While Gravitational Pull is somewhat inconvenient, Gunner can punish Rosalina and Luma's Gravitational Pull with fair and grenades (Gunner has at least a 10 frame advantage when using fair against Rosalina and Luma's Gravitational Pull. Besides testing this out with the level 9 cpu, I have also been able to take advantage of this in my matches against Rosalina and Luma players). I know that Gunner loses this matchup, but I don't think that Gunner loses that badly (70-30 is as bad as if not worse than the Rosalina and Luma matchup against Ness). While Rosalina and Luma sometimes fall out of Gunner's smashes, it doesn't happen very often as long as the smashes are decently spaced. While Rosalina and Luma can edgeguard Gunner very well, Gunner can gundash to the stage in order to mix up his/her recovery (Gunner also edgeguards Rosalina effectively). These are my thoughts on the Rosalina and Luma matchup that I posted on the Rosalina and Luma matchup thread.

Actually, ground level fair will allow Gunner to win the neutral against Gravitational Pull due to the low landing lag on the aerial and the high end lag on Gravitational pull. Fair beats out Rosalina and Luma's neutral b and it outranges all of her other moves. Although Mii Gunner won't get much damage from fair, its safety will make it worth using. Rosalina and Luma's best option is to perfect shield gunner's fair and force a stalemate with Luma's range.

Both characters can juggle and edgeguard each other very well, but Rosalina and Luma's superior combo game gives her an advantage in the matchup. Gunner can mitigate this advantage with his/her ease in knocking Luma off of the stage (dash attack, down smash, and forward smash are good for this) or killing Luma (Gunner's flame pillar is an infinite on Luma. The only thing that can stop it is Rosalina's Gravitational Pull). When Luma is gone Gunner is able to have an easier time racking up damage and killing, but Rosalina can do a good job of avoiding the damage due to Gravitational Pull making it harder for Gunner to deal damage.

I think that Rosalina and Luma win this matchup 60:40, but Mii Gunner can still do well in this matchup by safely attacking Luma with fair and by taking advantage of Rosalina's poor disadvantage state without Luma. With 3312 the matchup ratio is 55:45 in Rosalina's and Luma's favor because of her reward when Luma is there. The matchup is better with 3312 because Gunner gets a few more options to bait Gravitational Pull and more guaranteed combos with the moveset change.

 

[CT Chia]

CT Chia recently made this matchup chart for guest size gunner with an unrestricted moveset. I am not sure why he has the Rosalina and Luma matchup as a -2 for Gunner. I am also not sure about the ratios for ,,,,,,,,,,, and .

That's a lot to not be sure about lol, do you all think it's easier or harder for those characters than I had it?

Rosa is straight cancer for Gunner, like wow. Gravitational pull the moveset, effortless edgeguarding, luma blocking projectiles.

Pits and Palu have an amazing reflector (honestly a good reflector alone gives Gunner a really hard time). Sheik, Sonic, MK, Diddy (and Greninja to a lesser extent) are overall amazing characters that have the speed and tools to simply rack up damage much quicker than Gunner and navigate around his wall. Neutral with Luigi will sort of tie once they're on their powershield game vs you, then dominate you off stage. Gunner has issues killing so there you go dying at 70 to Lucario. Villager can pocket your strongest projectiles for good anti play while protecting himself well with Lloid. The theme of a lot of these characters is that they make Gunner play out of his comfort zone, and not in the way where he excels as a character (long range).

 

[GS3K]

Imo villager is probably the most manageable of that set of -1s, followed by luigi. Those two and maybe kirby I could being -1s, but not the same level of -1 compared to the likes of mario/fox/sheik.

 

[Djmarcus44]

That's a lot to not be sure about lol, do you think it's easier or harder for those characters than I had it?

Rosa is straight cancer for Gunner, like wow. Gravitational pull the moveset, effortless edgeguarding, luma blocking projectiles.

Pits and Palu have an amazing reflector (honestly a good reflector alone gives Gunner a really hard time). Sheik, Sonic, MK, Diddy (and Greninja to a lesser extent) are overall amazing characters that have the speed and tools to simply rack up damage much quicker than Gunner and navigate around his wall. Neutral with Luigi will sort of tie once they're on their powershield game vs you, then dominate you off stage. Gunner has issues killing so there you go dying at 70 to Lucario. Villager can pocket your strongest projectiles for good anti play while protecting himself well with Lloid. The theme of a lot of these characters is that they make Gunner play out of his comfort zone, and not in the way where he excels as a character (long range).

My biggest question with these matchups are about the moveset used for them since these matchups change considerably depending on the moveset used. I think that the matchups in question aren't as bad as they are listed, but I am not sure what moveset you are using for these matchups. I will mention some of the specials that make these matchups better in my opinion.

I agree that Gunner loses to Rosalina and Luma, but I am pretty sure that it is only a -1. I have written a matchup analysis of this matchup in my previous post. As I said before, Gravitational Pull isn't that bad because Gunner can punish it with grenade and fair since Gunner will finish the move before Rosalina finishes Gravitational Pull. Since Gunner gets the advantage in this matchup with Luma gone hitting Luma isn't a bad thing as long as it doesn't put Rosalina in the position to punish Gunner. While Rosalina edgeguards Gunner pretty hard, Gunner also edgeguards Rosalina very well. In an earlier analysis of this matchup, I also found that stealth burst is useful in this matchup since it can't be absorbed by Gravitational Pull, and it is good for killing Luma.

The only major tournament matches of Gunner against Diddy Kong are between ROM and Sean in Genesis 3 (Sean's Diddy Kong won 2-0 in the first round of the first pool, but ROM's Mii Gunner won 2-0 in the last round of the first pool. Since ROM and Sean tied for 9th in Wombo Wednesday, and Sean was projected to get out of the first pool, it is safe to assume that their skill levels were pretty even). Gunner's tools allow him/her to win the neutral in this matchup, and that is why the matchup is even. In addition, Gunner also edgeguards Diddy Kong pretty hard.

Can you elaborate on the Luigi matchup further? Bayonetta is better than Luigi at everything that you stated for the Luigi matchup (Bayonetta is faster than Luigi. She also has better out of shield options and edgeguarding than Luigi). In addition, Grenades and fair are safe on perfect shielding (grenades are even safe enough to get a grab against perfect shielding). The amount of perfect shields that it would require for Luigi to be even with Gunner in the neutral would be indicative of the Luigi player reading and outplaying the Gunner player. As long as the Gunner player isn't too predictable in the neutral, the Luigi player won't be able to perfect shield enough to win the neutral. While Luigi does a good job of edgeguarding Gunner, he is also easy for Gunner to edgeguard.

The Pits' reflectors are slow and laggy. It isn't that helpful in the matchup, especially if Gunner has reflector or absorber since Gunner won't have to approach as often. Palutena's reflector is also pretty slow. Since they are also somewhat easy to edgeguard and juggle, I think that Mii Gunner has an even matchup with them.

Meta Knight has a pretty hard time approaching Gunner due to the safety of Gunner's projectiles. He is slower and worse in the neutral than Greninja. With his reward reduced by the last patch, Gunner should be able to go even with Meta Knight depending on the moveset that is used. In addition, Gunner's great edgeguarding game is pretty effective against Meta Knight.

Sheik's nerfs have given her considerable killing issues, and they make the neutral easier for Gunner to manage. In addition, KV Flama beat Wonf's prepatch Sheik in a Mexican regional. For these reasons, I think that this matchup is even.

Greninja also has a somewhat difficult time in the neutral against Gunner. Furthermore, Gunner's reflector makes it harder for Greninja to take advantage of his shurikens to start combos. I am not one hundred percent sure about this MU since I don't know how effective shadow sneak hitstun canceling is against Gunner.

Villager is a pretty even matchup with a reflector since it is easier to reflect projectiles than pocket them. Lloid can be dealt with by using reflector or flame pillar. Since both characters can mess up each other's gameplans the matchup seems pretty even. The matchup gets even better with grenades since pocketing projectiles isn't as rewarding for Villager.

Mega Man is also a pretty even matchup with a reflector since it makes it harder for Mega Man to rack up damage, and it is easier to land against Mega Man with a reflector. Gunner also edgeguards Mega Man pretty well.

While Lucario can get a lot of killing power with aura, it is harder for him to land a kill move on Gunner when Gunner has a reflector or an absorber. Gunner also edgeguards Lucario very well.

Sonic is a pretty even matchup because Sonic has a pretty hard time approaching Gunner due to the low priority on his moves in the neutral. In addition, it is pretty easy to juggle Sonic.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The Rosalina sub-forum is analyzing the Mii Gunner again this week. Here's the link to the page if you have anything to contribute.

http://smashboards.com/threads/417453/

 

[HermitHelmet]

Just wanted to drop in and say that we're analysing the Wii Fit Trainer Matchup with all of the other Miis this week over on the Discord.

 

[Flameleon]

-Hello gunnerz, i'm Flameleon(Flama in my country, which means flame haha), i'm a top player in my country, México, i was a Mario main for years but one day, when Geno outfit came out, i decided to be a Mii Gunner main, hopefully to be a good one, and well, since i want to be active on smashboards again, i'll be trying to help with anything i can, in this case, matchups for our beloved main haha, here is one of the most recent match i've had:

Vs ToonLink:

I will play against Hyuga soon, you may know him, he's considered the best Toon Link atm, i will be sure to get data for the matchup. I also upload videos against specific characters to help with the matchup on my channel: https://www.youtube.com/FlameL3on

well, i think that's it for now, see you later, dudes...-