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Gunner Match-Up Thread

AEMehr

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Ah, it's a pleasure to see you on the boards!

I'm gonna fanboy a little bit and say that I've really enjoyed watching your play on several Youtube videos. I look forward to seeing how your experience against Hyuga gauges the matchup!

Oh and, this isn't really related, but I was interested in knowing if you had plans on attending 2GG's Mexico Saga in the coming month? Would be neat to meet and play some friendlies / compare notes.
 

Flameleon

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Ah, it's a pleasure to see you on the boards!

I'm gonna fanboy a little bit and say that I've really enjoyed watching your play on several Youtube videos. I look forward to seeing how your experience against Hyuga gauges the matchup!

Oh and, this isn't really related, but I was interested in knowing if you had plans on attending 2GG's Mexico Saga in the coming month? Would be neat to meet and play some friendlies / compare notes.
-Hey, thanks, it's a pleasure to be here too, well, i'll answer some points here.

I believe that Gunner wins the matchup vs Toon Link, i can't put the ratio yet, i will try to work on matchup ratios later, when there's a table or stuff like that, where we can discuss matchups one by one like other char forum does, since it's something important to do, to help gunner's metagame improve.

Unfortunately, i won't be able to go to 2gg Mexico saga, since i don't have my Visa yet, i hope to get it at the end of the year and be able to attend EVO the next year, if i can, i will try to go to Texas, since it's the nearest place i can go on my zone.

One of my goal is to make Gunner the master of camping, above all other characters who can zone and camp, i've playing against most of them and i'm sure this is possible to accomplish.

I forgot to show a match against Mk-Leo that's on another account:
I kinda played somewhat bad, because i was still trying to switch from Mario to Gunner between matches and i wasn't used to it yet, but i can say that matchup is in mk favor, only if he connects his Uair UpB combo, if not, then, it's hell for him, haha.

Well, i'll be around here, cya next time...-
 

Djmarcus44

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Flameleon Flameleon , I have also watched a lot of your tournament matches, and I am also a fan of your Gunner. I noticed that you have been using Mario against Sonic and Cloud. What do you think of those matchups? I have also noticed that you use fair to RAR bair pretty often. Is it a true combo?
 

Flameleon

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Flameleon Flameleon , I have also watched a lot of your tournament matches, and I am also a fan of your Gunner. I noticed that you have been using Mario against Sonic and Cloud. What do you think of those matchups? I have also noticed that you use fair to RAR bair pretty often. Is it a true combo?
-Hey, haha nice. Sonic is a hard matchup for gunner, characters who move a lot are usually hard to fight and Sonic, with spindash size and movespeed, is really hard to zone, Full Charged Shot is what beats Sonic's spindashes but we don't have the time to charge it, since they usually rush in, SideB can stop it too but is somewhat slow and when it comes to get the kill, it's even harder, not a fun matchup to play haha.

Cloud is kinda easier than Sonic, since there are some ways to gimp him, using SideB or Fsmash on the ledge and using Nair after reading an airdodge, Fair can stop all of his aerials and you can challenge his Dair with our Uair, the problem comes when he charges Limit Break, he gets absurd speed on the ground and in the air, it's practically impossible to keep him away from us, so, the only way to challenge this is to try to rack all the damage we can before he charges limit, in order to keep him far when we hit him with a move when he's on Limit. Avoid being juggled by using reflector and then gundash, so you can land safetly, also, beware of Nair when recovering, without jump, we won't be able to recover if it connects. Gunner is one of the few camp-zoners who can actually beat Cloud, the other one is Megaman.

At certain percents, around 30%, Fair to RAR Bair can combo, depending on the enemy DI, but only hitting with the "Far" Knockback of Fair, not the close one, Double Fair also works, but you will do less damage, although it's safer...-
 

Ridel

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Might as well continue with "lets ask Flama questions" thing. Flameleon Flameleon what are your opinions on Pika VS Gunner? I'm debating whether to use her or Ludwig for this MU but I'm not really sure how Gunner stacks up.
 
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Djmarcus44

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-Hey, haha nice. Sonic is a hard matchup for gunner, characters who move a lot are usually hard to fight and Sonic, with spindash size and movespeed, is really hard to zone, Full Charged Shot is what beats Sonic's spindashes but we don't have the time to charge it, since they usually rush in, SideB can stop it too but is somewhat slow and when it comes to get the kill, it's even harder, not a fun matchup to play haha.

Cloud is kinda easier than Sonic, since there are some ways to gimp him, using SideB or Fsmash on the ledge and using Nair after reading an airdodge, Fair can stop all of his aerials and you can challenge his Dair with our Uair, the problem comes when he charges Limit Break, he gets absurd speed on the ground and in the air, it's practically impossible to keep him away from us, so, the only way to challenge this is to try to rack all the damage we can before he charges limit, in order to keep him far when we hit him with a move when he's on Limit. Avoid being juggled by using reflector and then gundash, so you can land safetly, also, beware of Nair when recovering, without jump, we won't be able to recover if it connects. Gunner is one of the few camp-zoners who can actually beat Cloud, the other one is Megaman.

At certain percents, around 30%, Fair to RAR Bair can combo, depending on the enemy DI, but only hitting with the "Far" Knockback of Fair, not the close one, Double Fair also works, but you will do less damage, although it's safer...-
Thanks for explaining the fair to RAR bair combo and giving your input on the Sonic and Cloud matchups. I noticed that the priority of spindash depends on where you hit Sonic's spindash. I have seen some tournament sets where Gunner's nair beats out Spindash, but I have also seen a fully charged charge blast clank with spindash. It also seems like jab is a pretty good option in this matchup since it can clank with spindash, and it is our safest option in CQC. Since nair can beat spindash with good timing, I am pretty sure that most of Gunner's moves can beat spindash depending on where they hit Sonic's spindash (I will ask the Sonic boards for more information on spindash and spin charge. I know that it is considered a low priority move, but it seems like the hitboxes of Sonic's spindashes can clank with other moves pretty easily). While this matchup is tough since Sonic's mobility allows him to punish Gunner easily, it isn't too bad as long as the Gunner player doesn't commit to too many laggy moves. Since a lot of Sonic's moves have low priority, he isn't that hard to juggle (This is especially true if you use Gundashing in order to quickly get in position to juggle him).

Ridel Ridel , The Pikachu matchup is not that bad for Gunner. It seems like it is a even matchup at worst, since Mii Gunner has a really good tournament record against Pikachu. Pikachu's lack of range makes it pretty hard for him to approach Gunner, and his combination of killing issues and light weight allows Gunner to live much longer than Pikachu. While Pikachu's quick attack can help him get inside, Gunner's nair can beat it out. Pikachu has some confirms from fair and up throw, but Gunner can avoid getting it by the fair confirm by using outward DI to avoid the up smash, and mixing up your DI can make it harder for Pikachu to combo up throw to thunder. I would also strongly recommend banning Lylat against Pikachu since it isn't a great stage for Gunner, and it is Pikachu's best stage.
 

Flameleon

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Might as well continue with "lets ask Flama questions" thing. Flameleon Flameleon what are your opinions on Pika VS Gunner? I'm debating whether to use her or Ludwig for this MU but I'm not really sure how Gunner stacks up.
-Gunner vs Pikachu is a nice matchup, kinda even imo, Pika can beat us easily with bair mixups and gimps, since it acts as a semispike, if it lands while you're recovering, a stock is surely lost, Pika can combo like crazy and will stick to us with Quick Attack Cancel, leading to even more combo situations. If you have good defense and good aim, you can outcamp Pika and keep him at bay, to the point where he won't be able to approach at all.

I have a match vs a Pika, who's my crewmate, check it out:

Thanks for explaining the fair to RAR bair combo and giving your input on the Sonic and Cloud matchups. I noticed that the priority of spindash depends on where you hit Sonic's spindash. I have seen some tournament sets where Gunner's nair beats out Spindash, but I have also seen a fully charged charge blast clank with spindash. It also seems like jab is a pretty good option in this matchup since it can clank with spindash, and it is our safest option in CQC. Since nair can beat spindash with good timing, I am pretty sure that most of Gunner's moves can beat spindash depending on where they hit Sonic's spindash (I will ask the Sonic boards for more information on spindash and spin charge. I know that it is considered a low priority move, but it seems like the hitboxes of Sonic's spindashes can clank with other moves pretty easily). While this matchup is tough since Sonic's mobility allows him to punish Gunner easily, it isn't too bad as long as the Gunner player doesn't commit to too many laggy moves. Since a lot of Sonic's moves have low priority, he isn't that hard to juggle (This is especially true if you use Gundashing in order to quickly get in position to juggle him).
-There's a video where Esam explains that priority on smash doesn't exist, what does exist are trades and clanks, if i remember correctly, only on the ground will clanks occur when an attack is 9% stronger than the other, it will beat it, also, spindash mechanics are button mashing dependant, the more mash the sonic does, the more damage spindash will do, in fact, if spindash isn't mashed, most attacks will clank with it, like a no charge NeutralB, Dtilt will beat all the unmashed spindash too, since it does a lot of damage, also, Sonic's SideB full charged will do more damage than his DownB, that's why they use it most of the time, when fully charged, it will beat many of our attacks, only Fsmash, SideB and full Charged Shot will beat it on the ground.

There's another rule when trading, if a ground vs air trade is made, both characters will take the attack, and air vs air, also both will take it, that's why our Nair can trade with spindash, but be aware, Sonic's SideB fully charged outdamage us, so, trading with Nair isn't worth, our best bet would be Bair but is really hard to land it on Sonic's spindash size and on reaction, because we have to turnaround and jump, also, don't forget those spindash cancels and baits, trully, an annoying move.
 
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Djmarcus44

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-Gunner vs Pikachu is a nice matchup, kinda even imo, Pika can beat us easily with bair mixups and gimps, since it acts as a semispike, if it lands while you're recovering, a stock is surely lost, Pika can combo like crazy and will stick to us with Quick Attack Cancel, leading to even more combo situations. If you have good defense and good aim, you can outcamp Pika and keep him at bay, to the point where he won't be able to approach at all.

I have a match vs a Pika, who's my crewmate, check it out:



-There's a video where Esam explains that priority on smash doesn't exist, what does exist are trades and clanks, if i remember correctly, only on the ground will clanks occur when an attack is 9% stronger than the other, it will beat it, also, spindash mechanics are button mashing dependant, the more mash the sonic does, the more damage spindash will do, in fact, if spindash isn't mashed, most attacks will clank with it, like a no charge NeutralB, Dtilt will beat all the unmashed spindash too, since it does a lot of damage, also, Sonic's SideB full charged will do more damage than his DownB, that's why they use it most of the time, when fully charged, it will beat many of our attacks, only Fsmash, SideB and full Charged Shot will beat it on the ground.

There's another rule when trading, if a ground vs air trade is made, both characters will take the attack, and air vs air, also both will take it, that's why our Nair can trade with spindash, but be aware, Sonic's SideB fully charged outdamage us, so, trading with Nair isn't worth, our best bet would be Bair but is really hard to land it on Sonic's spindash size and on reaction, because we have to turnaround and jump, also, don't forget those spindash cancels and baits, trully, an annoying move.
I have seen that video, and I know that priority is a combination of other factors most of the time (there are still moves like Corrin's Dragon Fang Shot and Bayonetta's smashes that are programmed in the game to have low priority. Kuroganehammer has a website that shows all of the moves with this trait). I just like using the term as a simpler way to sum up these other factors.

The case that I mentioned was nair beating out spindash because the very tip of the nair that is disjointed was the part that hit Sonic. While it is pretty tough, Gunner can have an easier time dealing with spindash if the player is able to use Gunner's disjointed hitboxes on Sonic (since Sonic's spindash isn't disjointed, it should be possible to beat out the move with good timing). Esam has a "deal with it" video on spindash that is very helpful for making this move less annoying.
 

Ridel

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I think there was a term for Sonic's spin moves hitboxes. I think they were referred to as reverse disjoints not I'm not sure.

Flameleon Flameleon I'm in love with your Mii Gunner; you condition people so well.
 

SR-71

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Beating spindash using the slow disjointed hitbox of nair sounds OK in theory, but in an actual match it's rarely going to happen, and we should try to focus on more reliable ideas. Why confuse people by filling threads with difficult, highly inaccurate options and meaningless frame data? I have this same beef with lunar cancelling. Find something a real player can use consistently in a tournament match, because otherwise Gunner will remain a theory.
 
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Djmarcus44

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OT : Nair's a disjoint?
The streak on nair is a slightly disjointed hitbox. It beat out Sonic's spindash in tournament (The tournament name was C2CEO S2 W4. The match can be found on YouTube by looking up "Wrath vs Oogy". At 9:35 in the video, Oogy's Gunner was able to hit Wrath's Sonic out of the spindash).

Beating spindash using the slow disjointed hitbox of nair sounds OK in theory, but in an actual match it's rarely going to happen, and we should try to focus on more reliable ideas. Why confuse people by filling threads with difficult, highly inaccurate options and meaningless frame data? I have this same beef with lunar cancelling. Find something a real player can use consistently in a tournament match, because otherwise Gunner will remain a theory.
If you're going to accuse me of posting useless and inaccurate information, the least you can do is read my posts. I was talking about nair beating out spindash in order to get a better idea about the priority of spindash. I didn't even recommend using Nair's disjoint to challenge spindash. I even mentioned that it is pretty hard to use Gunner's disjointed hitboxes to beat out Sonic's spindash, even though it has happened in tournament play. It is still possible to challenge spindash with a well timed disjoint if you get the read, and it is a good idea to use Jab to challenge a spindash since it is our safest option in CQC (Reflector seems like it could be a possibility, but I am not sure if it can consistently beat out spindash). Jab would be a more reliable option for spindashes that are not fully charged since it can clank with them if you don't get to challenge the spindash with the disjoint.

To answer your question, I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Although my posts are sometimes long, the only person who has considered my posts confusing is you. For some reason, you have claimed on multiple occasions that my posts are highly inaccurate, but you haven't proven it at all. If you have this information that is so much more accurate than mine, you would be doing us a huge favor by posting this information instead of complaining to me. Frame data isn't meaningless. In fact, I am still trying to get someone to get the frame data on lunar launch in order to get the hitbox in order to see if it is possible to practice it and get it down in a real match.

As I said before, Lunar cancelling without the hitbox is still a useful technique that is pretty easy to do. Also, I wasn't even the person who found this technique @SpawnSean found the newer applications of Lunar cancelling, and he also gave some advice for practicing the timing of the technique in the thread.

I have been filling threads with information that has helped other Gunner players and greatly improved my own play. If it hasn't helped you, then you can post a comment to explain how my information can be of assistance to you.

Lastly, making a bunch of unproven claims doesn't help anyone or anything. If you think that my ideas are unreliable, then you should either explain why they are unreliable, or you should come up with your own ideas. If you can't prove that you're beef with my ideas is legitimate, then you are only wasting your time.
 

SR-71

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Woah, I wasn't attacking you dude. No reason to take things personally. I was simply suggesting we focus on options which can be done consistently, not just in theory. Frame data on lunar canceling might help, but why don't you pick up a controller and try doing it accurately before speculating all day and wasting time, or worse, giving players the wrong idea about what the best options might be.
 
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Flameleon

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-I remember the first time i discovered Lunar cancelling, it was on the 3ds, i was using a custom size mii and it had the perfect weight to do an airdodge>upB and make it a lunar cancel perfectly. When i made Gunner my main, i found out that the size of standard mii's isn't the best to do lunar cancelling consistently, after some training, i kinda got the timing for it but on real battles, isn't worth the risk, mainly because you have to be superclose to the enemy and by doing this, you kinda commit outside our safe zone, the only good use of Lunar Cancel i found useful is for getup mixups on the ledge.

If you guyz have trouble with shields, just perfect space Bair, it's kinda safe on block or if you think you'll be punished, just don't hit shields, gundash to safety. ..-
 

Djmarcus44

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SR-71 SR-71 , I wasn't taking it as a personal attack. I just wanted more specific cases for your broad claims. The reason why I posted so bluntly was because I thought that you were upset with me. As I have said before, I can easily lunar cancel without the hitbox, and that is still useful because it can be b-reversed (It has a window of more than 12 frames). I am still trying to find the window to get the hitbox for lunar cancelling, but I know that the hitbox for lunar launch comes out on frame 12.

Flameleon Flameleon , Lunar cancelling is also useful for mixing up your landing since it has very little lag. It is best used when your opponent is trying to get in a position to juggle Gunner after they already knocked Gunner into the air. It is basically a better version of A-Landing. Flame pillar is also safe on shield in the air when spaced properly. It is a decent landing mixup because it can confirm into charge blast off of a missed tech.
 

Flameleon

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Flameleon Flameleon , Lunar cancelling is also useful for mixing up your landing since it has very little lag. It is best used when your opponent is trying to get in a position to juggle Gunner after they already knocked Gunner into the air. It is basically a better version of A-Landing. Flame pillar is also safe on shield in the air when spaced properly. It is a decent landing mixup because it can confirm into charge blast off of a missed tech.
-Honestly, if you're gonna get juggled, there're better ways to escape, like gundash, footstool, DownB between hits, etc. Lunar cancelling is risky just for the reason that if you miss the timing, you'll be on the air on freefall animation, unable to act, although, it's hard to predict where gunner's gonna land if you're good controlling it. I think that being able to use lunar cancelling is decent just to have another option to mix against the enemy...-
 

Djmarcus44

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-Honestly, if you're gonna get juggled, there're better ways to escape, like gundash, footstool, DownB between hits, etc. Lunar cancelling is risky just for the reason that if you miss the timing, you'll be on the air on freefall animation, unable to act, although, it's hard to predict where gunner's gonna land if you're good controlling it. I think that being able to use lunar cancelling is decent just to have another option to mix against the enemy...-
I agree that lunar cancelling is not as good as gundashing of course, but it isn't that much riskier than the other two options you listed when the opponent is on the ground (When I mentioned an opponent getting in a position to juggle Gunner, I meant that the opponent was on the ground, and they were trying to get directly underneath Gunner. I apologize for not clearing that up). Lunar cancelling is a safer option than footstooling an opponent or using reflector when the opponent is staying on the ground to juggle Gunner. Reflector isn't as good in this situation because of it's endlag, and footstooling an opponent that is on the ground won't get Gunner out of the disadvantageous position. While these options are better than lunar cancelling when the opponent is in the air lunar cancelling is better when the opponent is on the ground because it has a pretty generous window to land the move, and Gunner has decent aerial mobility in the helpless state of Lunar Launch if you miss.
 

SR-71

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I agree that Lunar Launch is a good mixup sometimes, but overall it's a bad option when you're getting juggled, especially if you're getting closely-comboed by someone like Mario or Cloud with up-tilts and up-airs. Lunar Launch is slow startup, laggy ending, very difficult to cancel the landing, even more difficult to get a hitbox when cancelling the landing, especially if the opponent is below you, and chances are you'll mess up and be launched into free-fall where they get a free punish opportunity. The fireball isn't very big or damaging, even if it works and hits them somehow. I don't know why people suggest this is a good option in high-level matches. If you can make it work in a real match, I would love to see the video or at least hear about it, but so far it's just your personal theory and that's not enough.
 
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Djmarcus44

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I'm glad that you agree that it is a good mixup sometimes. That is what I was saying this whole time.

As I said in my previous post, Lunar cancelling is a good option when your opponent is on the ground trying to get in position to juggle Gunner. I have never said it was a good option for any of the situations that you listed.

Since I am on my phone, I can't give you any new videos. I am also not in the area of my tournament scene, so I can't give you any stories of me using it in high level play. The only video that I can provide is the video that @SpawnSean made when he found the applications of Lunar cancelling.
https://youtu.be/L713xuNdj2I I think I might have discovered a new Mii Gunner Tech.

If you want to see a similar concept advocated by high level players, look up "A-Landing" on YouTube (It is discussed by cFive, one of the best players in Germany). This concept is better than A-Landing because it has a larger window to get it right (more than 12 frames), it can be b-reversed, and it can give you a hitbox if you can get the timing right.

As I have said before, Lunar cancelling was never my idea or my theory. @SpawnSean actually gave some advice on how to Lunar cancel consistently on the "Mii Gunner Up B Platform Cancel?" thread. Since this is the matchup thread, it would be better if this was discussed in that thread.

In other news, the Game and Watch and Sonic boards are discussing the Gunner matchup. -6WX-, the best Sonic in the US, has provided some tournament video of his set with Chibo. The Game and Watch boards are discussing the Gunner matchup on the "GnW MU chart".
 
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Wii Twerk Trainer

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Dunno if I posted yet, but here's my list of bad Mu's for Gunner. Since I only use Guest 3312/1312 Gunner. This will only count guest size with customs.

Inmo Gunner Guest size with customs only has 9 bad MU's. All are still doable, but extremely hard.

1)Mario(65-35) - You literally have to play super keepaway and campy. Treat him like Ice Climbers(if you played Brawl). We may hit him alot with projectiles and give him like, 32%, but all he needs is a stupid touch to get combos going and we are at 60+% already smh. Mario destroys Gunner up close and can reflect our stuff easily. Mario is also difficult to gimp, unless you have grenades. Mario will tank hardcore if you don't get an early kill with Up smash, down smash, front smash, or up air. His up smash can kill us at 95% with good amount of rage and fighting a Mario who has the lead usually equals GG's to us *sigh*. Mario is fast enough to react to our GunDashing shenanigans. So you will have a hard time against a good Mario who knows the MU extremely well. Doable, but super frustrating. I play against Zenyou's Mario and it makes me want to drop Gunner lol

Mu helpers: Zenyou and other SoCal Mario's.

2) Ness(65-35) - Annoying as hell. He just absorbs everything! He can also react to GunDashing very well and combo us badly. Missile cannot be absorbed and use Fair and Charge Shot rarely and smartly. MU becomes 60-40'ish or 45 if you use absorb custom.

MU helpers: SS(Arizona), J Ribbs(Tri-State), Asa(Texas), and other SoCal Ness's.

3)Lucas(Same as Ness) - Just play super reactive and patient, just like against Ness. Except it's slightly easier than Ness, but still hard.

4)Mr. Game & Watch(60-40) - Stupid MU. Similar to the Psi Kids. Just spam missile and Gundash away as possible. Doable, but a very long battle lol

MU helpers: Wifi buddies and SoCal peeps.

5)Rosalina(60-40) - Whoever gets the lead wins here lol Do your best to get first blood and run with it. If Rosa hits you first. She is just gonna camp the **** out of you. And Gunners frame data is just **** when it comes to approaching. Play reactive and get rid of Luma Asap. Spaced back air, down smash, bomb drop, spaced front smash, and dash attack help alot. Just use it when you see an opening. A smart Rosalina will never approach if she has the lead. She will sit her fat ass and force you to come to her.

Mu Helpers: Aphro(SoCal), other SoCal peeps.

6)Fox(70-30) - LMAO Good luck with this one. Easily One of Gunners worst, if not, worst MU. His blazing speed shut our keepaway game and Gun dashing shenanigans. All he needs is one up tilt and we are in for a world of hurt. His frame data ****s on us badly. Do not go on a flat stage vs this guy. You need platforms badly! But Fox still loves platforms for up air crap. Just pray Fox messes up a combo and punish lol This is such a difficult MU... My goodness

MU helpers: Larry(SoCal), Aphro(SoCal), CharlieTheKing(SoCal), and other SoCal peeps.

7) Falco(60-40) - Annoying spacey, but not as bad as Fox. Try to get a lead here. Use projectiles sparingly and smartly. His reflector, aerials, and jab is hella annoying against Gunner.

Mu helpers: Wifi buddies and SoCal peeps.

8)Palutena(55-45) - Easily in her favor. Whoever gets first strike gets huge momentum here. Play her like you would Falco and don't get hit by your own projectiles when she reflects lol If she gets the lead. Good luck. She will just sit behind her wall of a reflect or and space back air and run away with the lead.

MU helpers: TLTC(SoCal)

9)Diddy Kong(55-45) - Easily in his favor. Better frame data, banana, and can combo us like crazy. Play super campy. Do not try to go for the banana when hes near it. Just ignore it and space well. Zone him like your life depends on it. He can also interrupt out Gundashing easily.

MU helpers: K9(SoCal), Tyranik(Tri State), other SoCal peeps.

Inmo I personally think the following are all 50-50 and are even MU's for us. Played some of the best or high leveled players as I can find to know the MU

Sheik - K9, Vinnie
Cloud - Max K, Nicko(SoCal)
Sonic
Dr. Mario
MegaMan
Toon Link - Zan
Villager - Avery(SoCal), SS
Zelda - Ven(Vegas)
Olimar - ImHip(SoCal)
Pit/Dark Pit - Kiraflax(SoCal)
Captain Falcon - Tearbear(SoCal), Zenyou
Pikachu
Bayonetta - Aphro(SoCal)
Mii Brawler Guest xxxx
Corrin
Mewtwo

Mu's in our favor(inmo)

+1(55-45 in our favor)
Zero Suit Samus
Meta Knight
Marth
Lucina
Greninja
Shulk
Lucario
Kirby
R.O.B
Duck Hunt
Pac Man
Yoshi
Ryu
Donkey Kong(DkWill dong dong and offstage)
Luigi(Mr.ConCon makes this MU annoying lol)

+2(60-40 in our favor)
Wii Fit Trainer
Bowser
Peach
Roy
Samus
Mii Swordfighter(could be a +1)
Jigglypuff
Link
Little Mac
Bowser Jr.
Ike
Wario


+3(65-35/70-30 in our favor)
King Dedede
Ganondorf
Charizard
Robin

-Mii Gunner Ditto
This one is an interesting MU, cause Gunner has the potential to counter himself lol Using absorb custom vs a Gunner is free heals for days and shuts down his camp game. It all boils down to who has a better neutral and close quarters game with Gunner in a ditto. I am a troll, so I usually go Wii Fit, Mii Brawler, or Corrin game 1 and make them use a Gunner that is 1312 or 3312(these are the most popular or they have bomb drop almost all the time). I tend to win anyways, so I'll be a troll and use my 3313 Gunner next round with absorb and just shut down their projectile game lol Since they cannot change their moveset mid match, it's a free win for me haha.



Got lazy with this. Sorry, but here's my input. Customizing Gunner sets can change the MU for any character. Just use whichever one you think helps best in that MU.
 
Last edited:

Djmarcus44

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
479
Flameleon Flameleon , What are your thoughts on Gunner's matchup against Yoshi? Most of the Gunner players on the discord think that it is one of Gunner's worst matchups, but I don't think that the matchup is bad for Gunner partially because of the way you played the matchup against Ludren.
 

TarriestMetal27

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 2, 2017
Messages
13
I'm a Mewtwo main and I personally want to know about what Gunner needs to do to beat Mewtwo and what Mewtwo needs to do to beat Gunner. I'm trying to bring back some MU threads and also find MUs for M2.
 

AEMehr

Mii Fighter
Moderator
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
7,702
Location
SoCal
You can watch this match I had vs Hitaku (NorCal PR player) awhile ago. I made some mistakes here and there but it's a good indication of the general matchup.
 

Moderate skill

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
79
Location
Georgia
Dunno if I posted yet, but here's my list of bad Mu's for Gunner. Since I only use Guest 3312/1312 Gunner. This will only count guest size with customs.

Inmo Gunner Guest size with customs only has 9 bad MU's. All are still doable, but extremely hard.

1)Mario(65-35) - You literally have to play super keepaway and campy. Treat him like Ice Climbers(if you played Brawl). We may hit him alot with projectiles and give him like, 32%, but all he needs is a stupid touch to get combos going and we are at 60+% already smh. Mario destroys Gunner up close and can reflect our stuff easily. Mario is also difficult to gimp, unless you have grenades. Mario will tank hardcore if you don't get an early kill with Up smash, down smash, front smash, or up air. His up smash can kill us at 95% with good amount of rage and fighting a Mario who has the lead usually equals GG's to us *sigh*. Mario is fast enough to react to our GunDashing shenanigans. So you will have a hard time against a good Mario who knows the MU extremely well. Doable, but super frustrating. I play against Zenyou's Mario and it makes me want to drop Gunner lol

Mu helpers: Zenyou and other SoCal Mario's.

2) Ness(65-35) - Annoying as hell. He just absorbs everything! He can also react to GunDashing very well and combo us badly. Missile cannot be absorbed and use Fair and Charge Shot rarely and smartly. MU becomes 60-40'ish or 45 if you use absorb custom.

MU helpers: SS(Arizona), J Ribbs(Tri-State), Asa(Texas), and other SoCal Ness's.

3)Lucas(Same as Ness) - Just play super reactive and patient, just like against Ness. Except it's slightly easier than Ness, but still hard.

4)Mr. Game & Watch(60-40) - Stupid MU. Similar to the Psi Kids. Just spam missile and Gundash away as possible. Doable, but a very long battle lol

MU helpers: Wifi buddies and SoCal peeps.

5)Rosalina(60-40) - Whoever gets the lead wins here lol Do your best to get first blood and run with it. If Rosa hits you first. She is just gonna camp the **** out of you. And Gunners frame data is just **** when it comes to approaching. Play reactive and get rid of Luma Asap. Spaced back air, down smash, bomb drop, spaced front smash, and dash attack help alot. Just use it when you see an opening. A smart Rosalina will never approach if she has the lead. She will sit her fat *** and force you to come to her.

Mu Helpers: Aphro(SoCal), other SoCal peeps.

6)Fox(70-30) - LMAO Good luck with this one. Easily One of Gunners worst, if not, worst MU. His blazing speed shut our keepaway game and Gun dashing shenanigans. All he needs is one up tilt and we are in for a world of hurt. His frame data ****s on us badly. Do not go on a flat stage vs this guy. You need platforms badly! But Fox still loves platforms for up air crap. Just pray Fox messes up a combo and punish lol This is such a difficult MU... My goodness

MU helpers: Larry(SoCal), Aphro(SoCal), CharlieTheKing(SoCal), and other SoCal peeps.

7) Falco(60-40) - Annoying spacey, but not as bad as Fox. Try to get a lead here. Use projectiles sparingly and smartly. His reflector, aerials, and jab is hella annoying against Gunner.

Mu helpers: Wifi buddies and SoCal peeps.

8)Palutena(55-45) - Easily in her favor. Whoever gets first strike gets huge momentum here. Play her like you would Falco and don't get hit by your own projectiles when she reflects lol If she gets the lead. Good luck. She will just sit behind her wall of a reflect or and space back air and run away with the lead.

MU helpers: TLTC(SoCal)

9)Diddy Kong(55-45) - Easily in his favor. Better frame data, banana, and can combo us like crazy. Play super campy. Do not try to go for the banana when hes near it. Just ignore it and space well. Zone him like your life depends on it. He can also interrupt out Gundashing easily.

MU helpers: K9(SoCal), Tyranik(Tri State), other SoCal peeps.

Inmo I personally think the following are all 50-50 and are even MU's for us. Played some of the best or high leveled players as I can find to know the MU

Sheik - K9, Vinnie
Cloud - Max K, Nicko(SoCal)
Sonic
Dr. Mario
MegaMan
Toon Link - Zan
Villager - Avery(SoCal), SS
Zelda - Ven(Vegas)
Olimar - ImHip(SoCal)
Pit/Dark Pit - Kiraflax(SoCal)
Captain Falcon - Tearbear(SoCal), Zenyou
Pikachu
Bayonetta - Aphro(SoCal)
Mii Brawler Guest xxxx
Corrin
Mewtwo

Mu's in our favor(inmo)

+1(55-45 in our favor)
Zero Suit Samus
Meta Knight
Marth
Lucina
Greninja
Shulk
Lucario
Kirby
R.O.B
Duck Hunt
Pac Man
Yoshi
Ryu
Donkey Kong(DkWill dong dong and offstage)
Luigi(Mr.ConCon makes this MU annoying lol)

+2(60-40 in our favor)
Wii Fit Trainer
Bowser
Peach
Roy
Samus
Mii Swordfighter(could be a +1)
Jigglypuff
Link
Little Mac
Bowser Jr.
Ike
Wario


+3(65-35/70-30 in our favor)
King Dedede
Ganondorf
Charizard
Robin

-Mii Gunner Ditto
This one is an interesting MU, cause Gunner has the potential to counter himself lol Using absorb custom vs a Gunner is free heals for days and shuts down his camp game. It all boils down to who has a better neutral and close quarters game with Gunner in a ditto. I am a troll, so I usually go Wii Fit, Mii Brawler, or Corrin game 1 and make them use a Gunner that is 1312 or 3312(these are the most popular or they have bomb drop almost all the time). I tend to win anyways, so I'll be a troll and use my 3313 Gunner next round with absorb and just shut down their projectile game lol Since they cannot change their moveset mid match, it's a free win for me haha.



Got lazy with this. Sorry, but here's my input. Customizing Gunner sets can change the MU for any character. Just use whichever one you think helps best in that MU.
So is the general standard of Mii Gunner MUs? They put a matchup chart up on reddit recently, but Mii Gunner wasn't included.
 

AEMehr

Mii Fighter
Moderator
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
7,702
Location
SoCal
I made a MU chart not too long ago as well.
Mii Gunner thrives on taking advantage of disadvantage state, specifically on ledge. Slow / Big bodied character are also good food to your zoning since fair is a great avoidance tool on top of a zoning one. Very hard for those characters to close the gap, even if they're power-shielding your projectiles.

If your opponent has great recovery / safe ledge options the MU immediately becomes harder.
Her fair helps deal with some pressure, but because power-shielding is good way to counter that zoning (which anyone can do rip) a lot of characters that are good at pressure are difficult to fight too. This in turn means a lot of the combo focused fighters are definitely bad MUs as well, since she lacks any real combo breaker tools outside of Echo Reflector.

You also have characters with reflectors and that can counter zone/space her well. Villager and Mewtwo come to mind as characters that abuse their speed versus her and can output much more attacks to prevent her from even doing anything. Throwing out charged blast or fair in retaliation can be very risky because of their reflect options.

She also gets edge-guarded crazy easy, with no hitbox to help protect her she's free to get hit by anything if sent to far from ledge.
 
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