AvariceX
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2007
- Messages
- 2,116
- Location
- London, Ontario, Canada
- NNID
- AvariceX
- 3DS FC
- 1177-8001-5699
I'm working on a project right now to determine what guaranteed punishes Ness has against each character. For now I will post the ideal punishes for each move of each character here. When the project is complete I will include the spreadsheet showing every possible guaranteed punish out of shield.
Characters completed so far:
Meta Knight*
Falco*
Diddy Kong*
*- Some frame data unavailable
In Progress
Snake
Marth
Important Notes
-NEW: For any multi-hit moves (3 hit usmashes), when a specific hit of that move is listed, assume any hits that come afterward whiff. So for example "Diddy Kong Usmash Second Hit" means the second hit connected and the third hit whiffed.
-NEW: For any multi-part moves (3 hit jab combos), when a specific hit of that move is listed, assume any followup hits are not performed. For example Meta Knight Ftilt-1 means the Meta Knight opted not to input the second or third part of the ftilt chain.
-For ground moves only the first active frame of the attackers move is considered. This means that if the move hits your shield after the move has already been in active frames, these punishes may not work. For most attacks this will rarely happen, but it is of particular importance against most dash attacks which remain active and mobile for some time.
-All of these may be spacing dependent. It's up to you to go into training and learn your spacings as well as your opponents'.
-For projectiles only the first frame the projectile hitbox becomes active is considered so if there is any distance between you and your opponent these may not work.
-The accuracy of these calculations depends entirely on the accuracy of frame data provided by the other character boards.
-PK Fire is always included as an ideal punish where possible because it can often lead to guaranteed followups.
-This data assumes you do not Powershield. Because every move in the game has unique hitlag data, including this would literally double the size of this project. I may come back to include Powershield data once all data for normal shield punishes is complete. For now just be aware that all moves are open to additional punish options when they are Powershielded.
-Fsmash is always listed as the ideal punish because it is Ness' highest damage and (when tippered) knockback move other than PKT2 and PK Flash. Because it is so rarely used, it will also nearly always be fresh from stale move degradation and it will refresh your other moves as well. Grabs are also included as ideal punishes where Fsmash is listed as a grab at high enough damage % is a guaranteed kill. It is also Ness' slowest attack OoS (other than PK Flash) so if you can punish with it then you can use anything else as well.
-For aerials it is always assumed the attacker lands after performing the aerial unless otherwise specified (e.g. "Retreating Dair" for Meta Knight).
META KNIGHT
Falco
Diddy Kong
How You Can Help
-I need frame data for the fastest possible PKT2.
-If you can provide frame data for any of the moves lacking from other characters' frame data threads, please do.
-Do the dots and lines in Falco's data make it easier to read or should I just leave a blank space like with Meta Knight? I don't mind adding them, but it is more work so if I don't need to then I won't.
-Anyone can do these calculations; they're actually pretty easy. For any grounded move from Ness other than usmash or PKT, add 7 to the number of the first active frame (this is how many frames it takes to drop shield) and if that number is less than the attacker's frame disadvantage on shield for a particular attack, you can punish with that move. For aerial moves add 6 to the first active frame of the move instead of 7 (Ness' jump becomes airborne on the 6th frame). For grab out-of-shield, usmash, and PKT don't add anything (dash grab and buffered pivot grabs still require the 7 frames to drop shield though). For PK Flash (lol) add 6 frames since it can be done aerially.
If a character's frame data does not list frame disadvantage on shield, this is how to calculate it:
For ground moves:
Total Active Frames - First Active Frame - Shield Stun + Shield Hitlag
For aerials:
Landing Lag - Shield Stun + Shield Hitlag
-I will be working my way down from the top of the tier list, so if you would like to help you could either start from the bottom of the tier list, or post here to claim a character to work on if you want data for a particular character sooner.
Characters completed so far:
Meta Knight*
Falco*
Diddy Kong*
*- Some frame data unavailable
In Progress
Snake
Marth
Important Notes
-NEW: For any multi-hit moves (3 hit usmashes), when a specific hit of that move is listed, assume any hits that come afterward whiff. So for example "Diddy Kong Usmash Second Hit" means the second hit connected and the third hit whiffed.
-NEW: For any multi-part moves (3 hit jab combos), when a specific hit of that move is listed, assume any followup hits are not performed. For example Meta Knight Ftilt-1 means the Meta Knight opted not to input the second or third part of the ftilt chain.
-For ground moves only the first active frame of the attackers move is considered. This means that if the move hits your shield after the move has already been in active frames, these punishes may not work. For most attacks this will rarely happen, but it is of particular importance against most dash attacks which remain active and mobile for some time.
-All of these may be spacing dependent. It's up to you to go into training and learn your spacings as well as your opponents'.
-For projectiles only the first frame the projectile hitbox becomes active is considered so if there is any distance between you and your opponent these may not work.
-The accuracy of these calculations depends entirely on the accuracy of frame data provided by the other character boards.
-PK Fire is always included as an ideal punish where possible because it can often lead to guaranteed followups.
-This data assumes you do not Powershield. Because every move in the game has unique hitlag data, including this would literally double the size of this project. I may come back to include Powershield data once all data for normal shield punishes is complete. For now just be aware that all moves are open to additional punish options when they are Powershielded.
-Fsmash is always listed as the ideal punish because it is Ness' highest damage and (when tippered) knockback move other than PKT2 and PK Flash. Because it is so rarely used, it will also nearly always be fresh from stale move degradation and it will refresh your other moves as well. Grabs are also included as ideal punishes where Fsmash is listed as a grab at high enough damage % is a guaranteed kill. It is also Ness' slowest attack OoS (other than PK Flash) so if you can punish with it then you can use anything else as well.
-For aerials it is always assumed the attacker lands after performing the aerial unless otherwise specified (e.g. "Retreating Dair" for Meta Knight).
META KNIGHT
Code:
ATTACK PUNISHABLE WITH
Jab Grab
Ftilt-1 Usmash-front, Usmash-back, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Ftilt-2 Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Ftilt-3 Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Utilt Usmash-front, Usmash-back, Dsmash-back, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Dtilt Jab, Dtilt, Nair, Grab
Fsmash Jab, Utilt, Dtilt, Nair, Grab
Usmash Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Dsmash-Front Usmash-front, Usmash-back, Dsmash-back, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Dsmash-Back Usmash-front, Usmash-back, Dsmash-back, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Dash Attack No data available
Nair-Strong Jab, Dtilt, Nair, Grab
Nair-Weak Usmash-front, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Fair* Grab
Bair* Jab, Dtilt, Usmash-front, Grab
Uair Jab, Grab
Retreating Dair Usmash-front, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Landed Dair Usmash-front, Nair, Grab
Tornado Last Hit No data available
Drill Rush Last Hit No data available
Grounded Shuttle Loop Strong No data available
Grounded Shuttle Loop Weak No data available
Air Shuttle Loop Strong No data available
Air Shuttle Loop Weak No data available
Dimensional Cape Attack No data available
Ledge Attack < 100% Usmash-back, Dsmash-back, Dsmash-front, Bair, Uair, Dair, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Ledge Attack > 100% Usmash-front, Usmash-back, Dsmash-back, Dsmash-front, Bair, Uair, Dair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Glide Attack Hard Landing Nothing
Glide Attack Soft Landing Nothing
* Unclear which hit. Assume last hit
Code:
ATTACK PUNISHABLE WITH
Jab 1---------------------------Usmash-front, Nair, Grab
Jab 2...........................No data available
Jab 3---------------------------No data available
Ftilt...........................Usmash-front, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Utilt First Hit*----------------Usmash-front, Usmash-back, Dsmash-back, Dsmash-front, Bair, Uair, Dair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Utilt Second Hit................Usmash-front, Usmash-back, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Dtilt---------------------------Usmash-front, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Fsmash..........................Usmash-front, Usmash-back, Dsmash-back, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Usmash--------------------------Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Dsmash..........................Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Dash Attack---------------------Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Dash Attack Gatling Cancel......Grab
Nair Last Hit-------------------Grab
Fair Last Hit...................No data available
Bair----------------------------Nair, Grab
Uair............................Nair, Grab
Dair----------------------------Grab
Silent Laser....................Nothing
Phantasm------------------------No data available
Firebird........................No data available
Deflector-----------------------Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Ledge Attack <100%..............No data available
Ledge Attack >100%--------------No data available
* Only if first hit hits shield and second hit whiffs (is this possible?)
Code:
ATTACK PUNISHABLE WITH
Jab 1 Usmash-front, Usmash-back, Dsmash-back, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Jab 2 Usmash-front, Usmash-back, Dsmash-back, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Jab 3 Fsmash, PK Flash (Uncharged), PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Continous Jab Too complicated to calculate
Ftilt (sweetspot) Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Ftilt (sourspot) Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Utilt Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Dtilt Usmash-front, Usmash-back, Dsmash-back, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Fsmash First Hit Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Fsmash Second Hit Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Usmash First Hit Fsmash, PK Flash (Uncharged), PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Usmash Second Hit Fsmash, PK Flash (Uncharged), PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Usmash Third Hit Fsmash, PK Flash (Uncharged), PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Dsmash-Front Fsmash, PK Flash (Uncharged), PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Dsmash-Back Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Dash Attack First Hit Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Dash Attack Second Hit Usmash-front, Usmash-back, Dsmash-back, Dsmash-front, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Dash Attack Third Hit Usmash-front, Usmash-back, Dsmash-back, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Nair Usmash-front, Usmash-back, Dsmash-back, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Fair Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Bair Usmash-front, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Uair Usmash-front, Usmash-back, Dsmash-back, Dsmash-front, Bair, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Dair Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Peanut Popgun No Data Available
Flip Kick (sweetspot) Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Flip Kick (medium spot) Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Flip Kick (sourspot) Fsmash, PK Fire, Grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab
Rocket Barrel No Data Available
Ledge Attack <100% No Data Available
Ledge Attack >100% No Data AvailableHow You Can Help
-I need frame data for the fastest possible PKT2.
-If you can provide frame data for any of the moves lacking from other characters' frame data threads, please do.
-Do the dots and lines in Falco's data make it easier to read or should I just leave a blank space like with Meta Knight? I don't mind adding them, but it is more work so if I don't need to then I won't.
-Anyone can do these calculations; they're actually pretty easy. For any grounded move from Ness other than usmash or PKT, add 7 to the number of the first active frame (this is how many frames it takes to drop shield) and if that number is less than the attacker's frame disadvantage on shield for a particular attack, you can punish with that move. For aerial moves add 6 to the first active frame of the move instead of 7 (Ness' jump becomes airborne on the 6th frame). For grab out-of-shield, usmash, and PKT don't add anything (dash grab and buffered pivot grabs still require the 7 frames to drop shield though). For PK Flash (lol) add 6 frames since it can be done aerially.
If a character's frame data does not list frame disadvantage on shield, this is how to calculate it:
For ground moves:
Total Active Frames - First Active Frame - Shield Stun + Shield Hitlag
For aerials:
Landing Lag - Shield Stun + Shield Hitlag
-I will be working my way down from the top of the tier list, so if you would like to help you could either start from the bottom of the tier list, or post here to claim a character to work on if you want data for a particular character sooner.
