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Ground vs. Air: A Ness [Control] Guide

Yink

The Robo-PSIentist
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Oct 6, 2009
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SSBYink
This is a guide I'd like us to all put together as a community. What we're going to do, is find when we find it "better" or perhaps "more reliable as a mix up" to stay on the ground or be in the air.

I'm sure the Air part is really obvious. Y'know...like, well, duh? Ness is great in the Air. I think we need to really take a look though at Ness' Ground game. To do this, we should go through the characters and look at who it might be safe to say is better for Ness when he's more ground based.


---

THE LIST:

-MK

-Diddy Kong
-Snake


---

We'll start with these three. What do you think, Nessers?
 

Eagleye893

Smash Champion
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isJolTz
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Diddy, better for us to stay in the air. You should always have one banana and use your DJC-bananas to move in with something. We beat out Diddy's air-game generally.

Snake, we WANT him to be in the air, but we don't want to be in the air with him until we put him there. Honestly, Ness can be either grounded or airborne, but preferably not grounded near Snake. You can try to poke in with things on the ground, but Snake's spacing tools don't allow you to do anything unless he's in lag.

MK, DON'T BE ON THE GROUND! He can grab you, he can out-space and out-speed you.... really, you need to be jumpy and make sure he can't catch you on the ground.

Judgement: All 3, Ness is significantly better in the air. Snake, you can be grounded against, but mostly only if HE's in the air.
 

Yink

The Robo-PSIentist
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SSBYink
I agree, only thing I'd add is once you DO get your opportunity for Snake, it's really not difficult to stay grounded. The thing that needs to be realized is you must read nades. Personally I have no issue reading nades, but I can see how others might. Once you read a nade though, if you dash grab you should move far enough away to throw and have enough time to not get hit. As we know, once snake is in the air...you can probably piece together what you want to do to him from there. Regrab as he falls to the ground, utilt, usmash if he tries to use a platform to save himself, etc.

With Diddy you could probably apply a little bit of ground pressure, but Nair pretty much is all you need, seeing as it picks up bananas so easily.

MK...just...don't stay on the ground very long.
 

Rockmix

Smash Journeyman
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Rockmix
As usual you should stay mostly in the air against those characters.
That's my input isn't a lot though.
 

P.I.E.

Smash Ace
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Apr 4, 2010
Messages
841
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Poinciana,Florida (CFL)
I think that you can generally us ground game for all three, though I believe that it's required for more characters than others, for example,ground vs. DK / air vs.kirby or jigglypuff.

I think air vs. diddy is great for when you wanna catch/avoid nanners and follow up on trips, but i think ground game works just as well if you're just going to catch nanners in the air. I've started to use yoyos and grabs OoS, and the tilts are amazing. If you can put enough damage on him and get diddy offstage, thunder can take care of the rest IMO o.o Also, MK scares me no matter house you put it. I've found myself getting air-***** so I tend to stay on the ground, mainly because I always see myself eating metal whenever ness so much as glances up for a second x.x I also think that the more you stay in the air, the more likely you are to go offstage, and you REALLY don't want that vs. mk, unless your opponent is both greedy AND terrible with timing. Vs. Snake, I hate how his utilt can hit you from 1 mile away and has a bit of a vacuum. I'd say, getting in the air is your best bet, in this case, mainly because of all the mindgames that can be done to you on the ground. Most snakes' entire metagames depend on ground beneath their feet. What with the grenades, ftilt, jad, dgrab, etc. If you wanna go further into it, I think that you would be on the ground more if you had to play defensive/safe and in the air more if you're going full offensive. But that's just my playstyle, which is kinda going through a lot of changes >.<
 

heybrun

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 21, 2010
Messages
4
Hey guys, first message in here. Been lurking for a while, and decided to contribute a little to Ness.

Ness is my top character, and I've played against REALLY good Meta Knight/Snake/Wolf lately.

So here's my input:

Generally, ground game should be only for counter-attack/GTFO/grab. If you want to attack on the ground, use PK Fire/Thunder and stay far. Ness ground attacks have average speed and average range, so if you fight a guy well equipped with close attack range, you shouldn't play in his garden.

Meta Knight:
My main strategy is PK Thunder. My objective is force him to position himself for a pk thunder. He can have all the strength in the world, he's still an easy target for PK thunder in the air. He somewhat have the right speed and right weight to have an hard time escaping a thunder. Even if MK is better on the ground than Ness, they love flying around. You know they're going to go into the air, especially if you invite them jumping around while shooting thunder.

You can sometime surprise them with a Dash attack, dash grab or a yo-yo depending on the circumstances. But don't depend on it, you better use yourself as an aerial bait to force to come fly at you.

Even if MK have the advantage, we have two big strength against him. Ness have the best weapon to disrupt MK when he's flying around/trying to recover. You have one of the rare character in the cast who can really cause problems to a recovering MK.

And you have the grab of doom. He can have all the talent of the world, a dash grab is still easy to do, and the MK knows it. Since you can only grab him on the ground, he's going to be careful on the ground. Sometimes, I taunt grab so he knows that if he get grabbed once, he's dead. It forces MK to go in the air, where the battle is more even.

Snake:
PK Thunder again. He likes to camp at the perfect distance to thunder him, so go on. I like playing a low-aerial game when I'm near him. The second jump is a great escape move if its too dangerous with grenades around.

PK Fire on the ground works pretty well. I don't mean its the ultimate move, but Snake, with his tendancy to camp at a medium distance, is usually in a good position to use PK Fire. And he trap well in it, it's easy to grab him in the fire.

Also, like MK, Ness have an ultimate advantage on Snake with his grab. Killing easily Snake at 140% while many characters needs 200% is crucial. It's easy to damage Snake, he even does it himself sometimes. He also likes to stay on the ground, so grabbing him is "easier".

Wolf:
I add him because my roommate play him, and he's brutally good with him.

Wolf **** Ness on the ground at close range. Every attack Ness does, Wolf have better. Yo-yo are useless (Wolf DSmash beat them every time). Jab is ok. Ftilt lacks range. Utilt is really good if you trap him at low %.

PK Fire is useless, the blaster beat it. That damn blaster is also hard to absorb if Wolf use at appropriate time. PK Thunder is really hard to use.

What to do? Air game and grab.

Wolf air game has good attacks, but he doesn't have a great mobility. Its more like "he strike, and he goes back on the ground". My comparison with Ness is to play like a vulture. You bait him, you move, you poke him with Back-air (don't use F-air, if he shield it all, he can easily grab you). When he makes a mistake, you go down on him.

Stay around his head, it's harder for him to use B-air.

You can't play aggressive on him, you need to force the mistakes. On the ground, you can only trade hit at close range. Or play Lucas, the other ****** is a lot better against Wolf.

Diddy Kong:
I don't know, I'm the only one around here playing him.
 

Neon Ness

Designated Procrastinator
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Jul 10, 2008
Messages
3,631
Please don't post just to insult others--this thread is for meaningful discussion.

If you think their logic is ridiculous, explain why.
 

P.I.E.

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
841
Location
Poinciana,Florida (CFL)
Hey guys, first message in here. Been lurking for a while, and decided to contribute a little to Ness.

Ness is my top character, and I've played against REALLY good Meta Knight/Snake/Wolf lately.

So here's my input:

Generally, ground game should be only for counter-attack/GTFO/grab. If you want to attack on the ground, use PK Fire/Thunder and stay far. Ness ground attacks have average speed and average range, so if you fight a guy well equipped with close attack range, you shouldn't play in his garden.

Meta Knight:
My main strategy is PK Thunder. My objective is force him to position himself for a pk thunder. He can have all the strength in the world, he's still an easy target for PK thunder in the air. He somewhat have the right speed and right weight to have an hard time escaping a thunder. Even if MK is better on the ground than Ness, they love flying around. You know they're going to go into the air, especially if you invite them jumping around while shooting thunder.

You can sometime surprise them with a Dash attack, dash grab or a yo-yo depending on the circumstances. But don't depend on it, you better use yourself as an aerial bait to force to come fly at you.

Even if MK have the advantage, we have two big strength against him. Ness have the best weapon to disrupt MK when he's flying around/trying to recover. You have one of the rare character in the cast who can really cause problems to a recovering MK.

And you have the grab of doom. He can have all the talent of the world, a dash grab is still easy to do, and the MK knows it. Since you can only grab him on the ground, he's going to be careful on the ground. Sometimes, I taunt grab so he knows that if he get grabbed once, he's dead. It forces MK to go in the air, where the battle is more even.

Snake:
PK Thunder again. He likes to camp at the perfect distance to thunder him, so go on. I like playing a low-aerial game when I'm near him. The second jump is a great escape move if its too dangerous with grenades around.

PK Fire on the ground works pretty well. I don't mean its the ultimate move, but Snake, with his tendancy to camp at a medium distance, is usually in a good position to use PK Fire. And he trap well in it, it's easy to grab him in the fire.

Also, like MK, Ness have an ultimate advantage on Snake with his grab. Killing easily Snake at 140% while many characters needs 200% is crucial. It's easy to damage Snake, he even does it himself sometimes. He also likes to stay on the ground, so grabbing him is "easier".

Wolf:
I add him because my roommate play him, and he's brutally good with him.

Wolf **** Ness on the ground at close range. Every attack Ness does, Wolf have better. Yo-yo are useless (Wolf DSmash beat them every time). Jab is ok. Ftilt lacks range. Utilt is really good if you trap him at low %.

PK Fire is useless, the blaster beat it. That damn blaster is also hard to absorb if Wolf use at appropriate time. PK Thunder is really hard to use.

What to do? Air game and grab.

Wolf air game has good attacks, but he doesn't have a great mobility. Its more like "he strike, and he goes back on the ground". My comparison with Ness is to play like a vulture. You bait him, you move, you poke him with Back-air (don't use F-air, if he shield it all, he can easily grab you). When he makes a mistake, you go down on him.

Stay around his head, it's harder for him to use B-air.

You can't play aggressive on him, you need to force the mistakes. On the ground, you can only trade hit at close range. Or play Lucas, the other ****** is a lot better against Wolf.

Diddy Kong:
I don't know, I'm the only one around here playing him.
Don't listen to that windwaker guy. Those are some great strategies! I agree, thunder is a really great projectile :3, and your analysis on a lot of mk's is spot on imo xD However, in general, snakes are not easy :D (I tend to think too much of a tourney scene, but..) Snake is one of the heaviest characters in the game, and most I play have monstrous DI o.o A good snake would only damage himself if he's trying to use a c4 recovery. I think the easiest way to deal with snake and wolf is to get the offstage, where you can not only spike their recoveries, but you can keep fair/nair-ing them until they're too far from the stage (terrible air mobility, as you said :p)

Idk if double-posting is allowed, but do you think it would be best to play a groundish game vs. D3? (Despite the grabs?)
 

heybrun

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 21, 2010
Messages
4
Don't listen to that windwaker guy. Those are some great strategies! I agree, thunder is a really great projectile :3, and your analysis on a lot of mk's is spot on imo xD However, in general, snakes are not easy :D (I tend to think too much of a tourney scene, but..) Snake is one of the heaviest characters in the game, and most I play have monstrous DI o.o A good snake would only damage himself if he's trying to use a c4 recovery. I think the easiest way to deal with snake and wolf is to get the offstage, where you can not only spike their recoveries, but you can keep fair/nair-ing them until they're too far from the stage (terrible air mobility, as you said :p)
Thanks P.I.E. I appreciate it. :)

Yeah, Snakes are not easy. The guy I play against, he was so good with Snake that he was almost "forced" to change his main, because his friends didn't stop crying about it. So he took Wolf (he's the guy about Wolf/Snake I was referring to in my previous post).

I find it a lot easier to deal with Snake than with Wolf to be honest. Snake is really good, but Ness have great tools against him. Being able to easily kill Snake at 140% is a huge advantage compared to the rest of the cast. Whatever his DI, the back throw of Ness annihilate him completely. He's heavy, relatively slow, and always on the ground, so grabbing him is far from an impossible task.

About Dedede:
I think Ness can fight better on the ground against Dedede than Wolf or MK. Since he's so big, he's an easy target for PK magic. The little teddy bear he throws (forgot the name...) burns with PK Fire, same thing for his hammer. I like to use that to control him, because those fire walls prevent him from rushing you on the ground. And if you can BBQ him, well, that's better, because he traps well in it.

Except for his grab, Ness can trade hits on the ground with Dedede. You can PK Fire his Ftilt (that hammer goes so far...) to create a fire wall like I said before. It blocks him, and it prevent spamming of that move (well, except if he like being blocked by fire).

If he goes into the air, PK Thunder his big fat ***. He's slow, big and predictable.

His grab is well-known, so you better use disjointed attacks like the Yo-Yo, PK Fire, PK Thunder, Dash attack and Smash Bat if you want to stay on the ground. Grab only if you catch him in fire or he makes a big mistake. You don't fight his grab with yours.

With Dedede, I believe Ness can alternate between ground and air, depending on how he wants/feels this fight.
 
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