Greninja Matchup Discussion

[BatShark]

Discuss Greninja matchup observations here. Try not to extrapolate characters you lost against as necessarily bad matchups, at least explain a bit as to why that may be the case. For now, given the relative lack of games played, I'm just going to talk about specific traits that hurt Greninja, I don't want to make any conclusions about overall characters yet.

Potentially bad matchup qualities I've noticed...

• Characters with quick, high priority Dairs with high duration. Really sucks when Uair is so limited. G&W is a great example of this. Bowser would be but he's slow enough that you can catch him before he does it and the punish on him missing is huge. Haven't faced enough perplexingly but potentially Sheiks or Zamus, though neither of those come out as quick.
• Heavy, quick projectiles that disrupt shuriken approaches. Link/TLink are kind of problematic this way, but mostly because arrows can arc over your shurikens. You can cancel out semi-charged Samus charges and duck under power missiles, but you're kind of outgunned there.

Potentially good matchup qualities...

• Heavies! Uthrow Usmash at low %s, Uthrow Uair at mid %s. Dthrow DACUS. All of them made easier with the heavies and fast fallers of the world.
• Certain projectile kits are cancelled out by shurikens pretty definitively. Megaman is forced to approach because the blade is negated by an uncharged shuriken. Same with the Marios, but you need to learn how to dash attack under pills to punish those and be comfortable with short hopped shurikens falling backwards or forwards to disrupt these guys as much. Lucario at low-mid %'s is pretty good for us too, I'd say.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

I think you got all these right.Slow and heavy and shuriken cancels are best for greninja.

 

[Br0kenEng1ish]

D3 is on amazing match up for Greninja, uncharged shurikens send gordos right back at him let alone the combo potential.

 

[BatShark]

DDD too, yeah, I forgot how devastating that Gordo reversal is.

 

[Sosuke]

they don't always send them back, i think it depends on the angle or something

 

[Br0kenEng1ish]

they don't always send them back, i think it depends on the angle or something

I havnt spent it fail yet, but if that is the case I'd assume the more vortices the gordos trajectory the higher chance it is for the reflect than.

The main problem I find right now with trying to get his match ups is that Greninja has no real obvious weaknesses so it tough to say who would be strong against him, but I'd assume characters who are just as quick if not quicker and who also have solid neutral game would be his toughest opponents. Characters that come toond are Shiek, ZSS and even Fox.

This is just speculation, the only experiance I have had against these characters are online which isn't exactly the best testing ground.

 

[BatShark]

If DDD launches the Gordo at the high vertical angle, it's much much tougher to send back. The standard angle favors the shuriken knockback though.

 

[Requiem]

There's a match-up thread in the stickies. x:

http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...matchup-thread-now-open.369356/#post-17721565

But please tell me how you do DACUS, because I have no clue how to manage to do that on a 3DS, and tbh didn't even know it was in this game =D

 

[BatShark]

Oh, snap, I guess I didn't read that thread title fully.

As for DACUS, I don't find it particularly difficult on the 3DS, in fact it feels easier than in Brawl. Greninja's is pretty phenomenal too, good distance and on one of his best kill moves.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Inputs for dacus?

 

[Spirst]

I would like to know this input as well. Seems tedious to perform at 1x speed using just the circle pad and no c stick.

 

[BatShark]

I misspoke on the tech, just a sliding up smash for Greninja. DACUS is possible in this game, but not sure on every character (there's video of it from a Sheik, at the very least.) Greninja's goes probably around 1/4 of FD if done quickly enough.

 

[OracleFish]

How do you all deal with Ness? His grabs are faster, his heal shield absorbs shurikens, his aerials get priority...

 

[Spirst]

I misspoke on the tech, just a sliding up smash for Greninja. DACUS is possible in this game, but not sure on every character (there's video of it from a Sheik, at the very least.) Greninja's goes probably around 1/4 of FD if done quickly enough.

The video of it I believe was done using a GC mod. Greninja CAN DACUS though I don't recall the range. Greninja's sliding usmash is pretty useful even without DACUS however.

How do you all deal with Ness? His grabs are faster, his heal shield absorbs shurikens, his aerials get priority...

His heal shield doesn't absorb shurikens actually. He takes the hitstun instead of absorbing them regardless of whether it's fully charged or not at all. We can also gimp his recovery really badly by displacing him from the PK thunder if you're quick enough to do so before he hits you with it. Ness can interrupt the uthrow-uair with a dair so I would suggest following the uthrow with a spaced bair instead. Stay away from the PK fire by spacing your own projectile and forcing him to approach. His bthrow can be pretty devastating at higher percentages but I don't think it's as dangerous as it was in Brawl. Also be wary of any dthrow follow-ups. We have a better ground game than Ness does so make use of pivot smashes, grabs, and shorthops to bait the PK fires leaving him vulnerable.

 

[bajisci]

The video of it I believe was done using a GC mod. Greninja CAN DACUS though I don't recall the range. Greninja's sliding usmash is pretty useful even without DACUS however.

https://vine.co/v/OAQxKbIuwJb

 

[2-DJeff]

https://vine.co/v/OAQxKbIuwJb

Inputs? Also hey guys! I'm 2djeff aka(streetshark) a former high level ic/falco/lucario player in brawl. Been maining greninja and lucario day one.I've experience most mu at a high level given that I live in fl and I have some greninja input if we are going over mu! Hope I can help and you guys could help me also with mu's

 

[DouchebagDylan]

Would love to hear one of your guys' opinions on the Yoshi matchup. He doesn't seem too hard to beat as I have beaten some mediocre Yoshi players without a problem but I have played some amazing Yoshis online that I could only get 1 stock off per match.

 

[Br0kenEng1ish]

Would love to hear one of your guys' opinions on the Yoshi matchup. He doesn't seem too hard to beat as I have beaten some mediocre Yoshi players without a problem but I have played some amazing Yoshis online that I could only get 1 stock off per match.

Unfortunately don't have much experiance against good yoshis, but he is notably stronger. He's much harder to rack up easy damage on because we can't abuse u-air stage spike resets which really weakens our combo game as a whole.

The only good yoshi I played against I played really heavy bait and punish game, f-tilt/f-smash dash cancels help a hell of a lot with that, but I'm not sure if it's the best way to play the match up, or if the player couldn't adapt to the playstyle.

 

[enixbelmont]

I've mostly played Greninja, and I feel this character really doesn't have any bad matchups. Possibly Rosalina, but I blame my matchup knowledge on that one. Many of his matchups are even, and some are HUGELY in his advantage(anyone with an exploitable recovery, like Falcon or Ganondorf, mostly).

I'm not perfect or anything, but after probably 300 matches online with greninja, the only ones I lost I've felt were entirely due to my own mistakes, not any matchup problems. He really seems to shutdown a lot of playstyles, so many as the game develops bad matchups will develop, but it's almost never safe to approach from above. Against my friend who was a fairly good ness main in brawl and my main competition, I could run under his shorthops and get huge damage with up smash on reaction pretty consistently. Maybe you just need to play vs. greninja much different.

 

[bajisci]

Inputs? Also hey guys! I'm 2djeff aka(streetshark) a former high level ic/falco/lucario player in brawl. Been maining greninja and lucario day one.I've experience most mu at a high level given that I live in fl and I have some greninja input if we are going over mu! Hope I can help and you guys could help me also with mu's

Need the new 3ds or a gamecube controller

 

[ghaudephaede010]

I've mostly played Greninja, and I feel this character really doesn't have any bad matchups. Possibly Rosalina, but I blame my matchup knowledge on that one. Many of his matchups are even, and some are HUGELY in his advantage(anyone with an exploitable recovery, like Falcon or Ganondorf, mostly).

I'm not perfect or anything, but after probably 300 matches online with greninja, the only ones I lost I've felt were entirely due to my own mistakes, not any matchup problems. He really seems to shutdown a lot of playstyles, so many as the game develops bad matchups will develop, but it's almost never safe to approach from above. Against my friend who was a fairly good ness main in brawl and my main competition, I could run under his shorthops and get huge damage with up smash on reaction pretty consistently. Maybe you just need to play vs. greninja much different.

Rosaina is not a big matchup problem for Greninja as of yet. Rosalina has problems with characters that can go through Luma or are very fast (rushdown) and Greninja has both of those under control.

As far as true matchup problems, Megaman is a problem. He has answers to every one of Greninja's questions. As far as I can tell, Megaman is a serious matchup threat. I am still analyzing most matchups and it is early in the metagame but at this point, I believe Megaman is thee only big problem I have run into.

I agree with the Ness assessment. Ness is hardly a matchup problem. You can destroy him when he short hops, you can out maneuver him to stay out of grab range, and you can out camp him. Most likely, if Ness is giving anyone a problem, it is matchup experience that is required.

 

[Br0kenEng1ish]

Rosaina is not a big matchup problem for Greninja as of yet. Rosalina has problems with characters that can go through Luma or are very fast (rushdown) and Greninja has both of those under control.

As far as true matchup problems, Megaman is a problem. He has answers to every one of Greninja's questions. As far as I can tell, Megaman is a serious matchup threat. I am still analyzing most matchups and it is early in the metagame but at this point, I believe Megaman is thee only big problem I have run into.

I agree with the Ness assessment. Ness is hardly a matchup problem. You can destroy him when he short hops, you can out maneuver him to stay out of grab range, and you can out camp him. Most likely, if Ness is giving anyone a problem, it is matchup experience that is required.

From my experience Shurikens are your best bet against megaman. They outrange is jab bullets and out prioritise his other projectiles. Greninja spams slighty faster also so it means in that match up you can force Megaman to be the aggresor, a role he doesn't particularly play well.

 

[an1bal]

From my experience Shurikens are your best bet against megaman. They outrange is jab bullets and out prioritise his other projectiles. Greninja spams slighty faster also so it means in that match up you can force Megaman to be the aggresor, a role he doesn't particularly play well.

ugh this. Ran into a decent greninja at a tourney yesterday and couldnotkeep up with him. In fact I came to this forumto find answer. his aerials have so much priority.

 

[BatShark]

Agree on shurikens vs. Megaman. If he tries to range you with a sticky bomb, you just dash past him and return it to him. The tricky thing vs. Megaman though is you can't approach him from above and his spinning dash attack can't be countered with a shield grab, you have to back-tilt in a very tiny window to punish, or maybe a quick pivot grab.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Shruikens can't outspam Megaman if he's utilizing both his sticky bomb and saw blade at the same time.

 

[Spirst]

Shruikens can't outspam Megaman if he's utilizing both his sticky bomb and saw blade at the same time.

No, but it does cancel out both of them and depletes his options a bit. Sticky bombs and saw blades aren't all that problematic. It's the jab shots that are really annoying.

 

[BatShark]

No, but it does cancel out both of them and depletes his options a bit. Sticky bombs and saw blades aren't all that problematic. It's the jab shots that are really annoying.

Yep. Saw blade takes him longer than it does you and an uncharged shuriken still kills it. The Megamans I play usually give up on using it after about 30 seconds into the matchup.

 

[Gunla]

In the future, please discuss matchups in this thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...ja-impressions-matchup-thread-now-open.369356