Grab Wisely (offical looking)

[Tristan_win]

So awhile ago Plaid Ghost made a thread asking people why to grab over doing something like a smash attack. He got a lot of stupid answers but I've been thinking about the same thing for a while now, at least for Sheik.

After looking at the frame data and comparing the numbers back to back. I was so pleased with what I noticed that I decide to make a thread about it.

Frame data doesn't lie...

Normal

Start up
Sheik Jab- 2 frames
Sheik Jump- 4 (airborne on frame 5)
Sheik Ftilt- 4 frames
Sheik Utilt- 5; 25 frames
Sheik Dtilt- 5 frames
Sheik Standing Grab- 6 frames
Sheik Jump into Nair- 7 frames
Sheik Running Grab- 9 frames

Cool down
Sheik Jab- 20 <17> frames
Sheik Ftilt- 24 <21> frames
Sheik Dtilt- 29 Frames
Sheik Standing Grab - 30 frames
Sheik Utilt- 40 <35> frames
Sheik Jump into Nair- 44 frames 15 frames for landing lag plus air time before landing.
Sheik Running Grab - 46 <39> frames


Shield related

Start up
Shield- 2 frames
Jump- 4 (airborne on frame 5)
Sheik Standing Grab- 6 frame
Sheik Jump into Nair- 7 frame
Sheik Jab out of Shield- 10 frame
Sheik Ftilt out of Shield- 12 frame
Sheik Utilt out of Shield- 13 frames
Sheik Dtilt out of Shield- 13 frames

Cool down
Shield- 7 frame
Sheik Jab out of Shield- 28 <25> frames
Sheik Standing grab- 30 frame
Sheik Ftilt out of Shield- 31 <28> frames
Sheik Dtilt out of Shield- 38 frames
Sheik Jump into Nair- 44 frames 15 frames of landing lag plus air time before landing.
Sheik Utilt out of Shield- 48 <43> frames

Note: The ones with "<>" around them is IASA frames
Note2: I added 1 frame to the "out of shield" numbers since it takes 1 frame for the game to input your commands.

I want you to pay special attention to the cool down time of the shield related section and the ISSA frames listed there.

Okay so with those numbers we can start to separate them into categories

The reason for that organization is quite simple

High Risk Low Reward
The Utilt and Dtilt rarely combo into anything and have more start up and cool down then the rest of the other options

High Risk Low Reward
The Ftilt is by far the best if it lands but because of it's cool down it isn't the safest as if they side step or shield odds are they will be able to punish you.

Low Risk Low Reward
The old classic is still semi safe but it does less damage then all of the listed options but maybe the jab with out pummeling. Honestly people I love positioning which is why I'll still use the grab to mix it up and to force my opponent in the air in a way I can control but unless they are like at zero percent it's unlikely you will follow it up effectively with a attack.

Low Risk High Reward
This is the best it's get, they are the safest and can cause a good chuck of damage.

The Jab
The jab out of shield comes out in 9 frames which is indeed 3 frames slower then the normal standing grab, however unlike the grab the AAA combo cannot be side step and if it connects can do a noteworthy amount of damage. If you end it early you will also be able to escape being punished by shield. The AAA combo ends in 4 frames and the shield comes out in 2 frames their attack will most likely wont have the range or the speed to hit you and even if it does they have to have frame perfect timing to hit you, which most likely wont be as much punishment as you just gave them. Another thing to think about when doing the Jab out of Shield is a single or maybe two can be used to "test the water" to see how they respond which if you fear a grab coming could side step.

Full Jump out of Shield into Strong Nair
This is the best option out of shield it's the best in safety and for immediate damage, after all it comes out only 1 frame slower then the standing grab. By jumping to Sheik full height with the Nair they are force to shield or side step. The cool down of the attack does not allow most characters the chance to purse very effectively thus allowing you to hit or not hit them with nearly no danger to yourself. The only reason's this should not be used is..

1. You wish to keep your Nair fresh for killing
2. They have a counter and you think you are going to use it if you try this
3. They are someone like Marth or Samus with great defensive up B's


Note3: The reason why the Dsmash was not added was because it is slower then the jab and does does the same damage as the Nair while not being able to be sidestep. Trying to organized a list of Low and high reward and risk was proving to be too challenging with it was replace with the Utilt.

 

[Zankoku]

Why is this only being seen from a defensive point of view? Practically everything Sheik does can be shieldgrabbed if it connects with a shield (and in some characters' cases, even if it doesn't connect). Grabbing beats shields, just like it did in Melee, just like it did in 64. It has low reward but saying it's pointless just because jabbing out of shield is better than shieldgrabbing is like saying Chain is stupid because recovering Vanish doesn't get auto-gimped by someone just edgehogging you. You're only looking at one situation out of several, namely out-of-shield options.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Im missing something surely, because a Jab or N Air OOS...won't go through a shield? A grab will?

 

[Tristan_win]

Why is this only being seen from a defensive point of view? Practically everything Sheik does can be shieldgrabbed if it connects with a shield (and in some characters' cases, even if it doesn't connect). Grabbing beats shields, just like it did in Melee, just like it did in 64. It has low reward but saying it's pointless just because jabbing out of shield is better than shieldgrabbing is like saying Chain is stupid because recovering Vanish doesn't get auto-gimped by someone just edgehogging you. You're only looking at one situation out of several, namely out-of-shield options.

Even if you use your Shield offensively a strong Nair is still better and is almost as quick. While a grab can be sidestep and then punished while giving your opponent a token amount of damage with the chance to be followed up if it lands . I can't say I don't look at things first defensively because that's how my mind works but even this doesn't change the fact a ftilt or a jab could be a better option then a grab if your opponent is unable to defend themselves.

We don't have to stop throwing all together as it's a great mixer upper but we have better options, why use the mid tier ones over the safe or more damaging ones?

 

[The 5th Horseman]

Im missing something surely, because a Jab or N Air OOS...won't go through a shield? A grab will?

^
I second this.

 

[Tristan_win]

~sighs~

Grabs beats shields but unless your opponent is ******** he's not going to stand in front of you in standing grab range unless he's trying to bait you or something before doing side step.

Edit: or if he hits your shield and has put himself there. Honestly, do I have to explain that?

 

[Tristan_win]

You know what, I think I'll change the title to something less argumentative and eye drawing.

~nerfs his title while double posting.

 

[Blistering Speed]

So you're telling me the situation where a person is in your grab range shielding never happens against good players? Like I say I must be missing something.

 

[Tristan_win]

So you're telling me the situation where a person is in your grab range shielding never happens against good players? Like I say I must be missing something.

No I'm saying there are safer and more damaging options over grabbing. If someone is standing in front of you shielding then he could be baiting you to grab which then he could dodge you and then punish you. Meanwhile if you did grab him you would only do like 8% and have a very slim chance to follow it up with a attack. It's practicably better to wait for them to land after throwing which also has a risk involved.

Grabbing is good, but it's also risky and I don't think the risk to reward ratio is worth it if you have better options, which you do.

 

[Blistering Speed]

No I'm saying there are safer and more damaging options over grabbing. If someone is standing in front of you shielding then he could be baiting you to grab which then he could dodge you and then punish you. Meanwhile if you did grab him you would only do like 8% and have a very slim chance to follow it up with a attack. It's practicably better to wait for them to land after throwing which also has a risk involved.

Grabbing is good, but it's also risky.

Yes, but you're missing my point that there aren't more damaging options in that situation because grab is the only thing that will do damage in that situation. The frame data also proves that standing grab is your fastest option so you could use the dodge argument for any other move. I will agree it's not as safe as the N Air OOS but the fact still remains N Air OOS won't do **** other then keep you safe.

Grabbing is good, but it's also risky. I agree with this.

 

[Tristan_win]

Yes, but you're missing my point that there aren't more damaging options in that situation because grab is the only thing that will do damage in that situation. The frame data also proves that standing grab is your fastest option so you could use the dodge argument for any other move. I will agree it's not as safe as the N Air OOS but the fact still remains N Air OOS won't do **** other then keep you safe.

Grabbing is good, but it's also risky. I agree with this.

"I want you to pay special attention to the cool down time of the shield related section and the ISSA frames listed there."

The grab is the fastest but it does not have the fastest cool down time as the ftilt and jab are faster with IASA frames. The jab is only 3 frames slower, can't be side step, does a decent amount of damage if it lands also you can jab or jab twice into a side step and avoid their grab which you could follow up with a ftilt or a dmsmash.

 

[Blistering Speed]

"I want you to pay special attention to the cool down time of the shield related section and the ISSA frames listed there."

The grab is the fastest but it does not have the fastest cool down time as the ftilt and jab are faster with IASA frames. The jab is only 3 frames slower, can't be side step, does a decent amount of damage if it lands also you can jab or jab twice into a side step and avoid their grab which you could follow up with a ftilt or a dmsmash.

Yes, I noticed the cool down time which is why I agreed with your good but risky statement. This leaves us with two OOS options against a shielding opponent which can put us in a advantaged position, as I think you've agreed that N Air OOS, whilst safe, does nothing else, it just puts you in a neutral position. These are jab and grab. The jab admittedly has a nice mixup in the double jab to possibly mess up a person coming out of their shield, but the fact remains it can still also be punished in it's afterlag, it just has a smaller window and it's primary problem that it doesn't actually do damage is something you keep over looking.

Grab is the only thing that can do damage in this situation and seeing as both can be punished (albeit one easier then the other) Im still going to go for the grab in most situations. I guess it comes down to predictability on deciding how to react between those two.

 

[choknater]

"Low Risk How Reward" is too good

 

[JackieRabbit5]

question do u have tap jump on to do OOS Nair?

I agree with Ankoku that u have to look at ways the opponent could react. I'll probably stick to grabbing mostly but it is good to mix things up

 

[Zankoku]

Why would you need tap jump? Just slide your thumb from X to A. Or, if you have Z set to attack (for those of you silly enough to change your controls just for DACUS or something) hit X/Y with your thumb and Z with your index finger. Just like Melee.

 

[JackieRabbit5]

oh k right i'm thinking of upB OOS but thats probably not as useful

yeah tap jump would interfere w/ my DACUS b/c it seems to best work for me when i do up controlstick>down cstick>R (attack) in that splitsecond order

 

[-Mars-]

No I'm saying there are safer and more damaging options over grabbing. If someone is standing in front of you shielding then he could be baiting you to grab which then he could dodge you and then punish you. Meanwhile if you did grab him you would only do like 8% and have a very slim chance to follow it up with a attack. It's practicably better to wait for them to land after throwing which also has a risk involved.

Grabbing is good, but it's also risky and I don't think the risk to reward ratio is worth it if you have better options, which you do.

This is why you utilize pivot grabbing.

 

[Tristan_win]

This is why you utilize pivot grabbing.

._. Well yeah, pivot anything is deadly as ****. I wish I could pivot constantly...

 

[slickmasterizzy]

meh i see your guys points but i think grabbing is very situation dependant.

if i play against someone who doesnt really like to try to grab ill perfect shield alot.

if someone overgrabs or i know in certain situations/percents someones game is going to revolve around grabbing me. (falco when your at low percents/ness when your at high percents)

then im going to dodge alot more.

you cant just base everything on numbers and frame data. it helps to an extent but any post that tries to prove that a portion of your character is "useless" is just silly IMO.

like shieks that dont know how to play zelda =p

 

[<π]

I like this post. Ultimately I want my sheik racking damage fast and safe. Highest damage out put is normally the reward I seek and shield grabs are more often than not the safest option. I only shield and expect to attack when I see an incoming aerial. When shielding agianst tilts and such you best option afterward is to dodge away or needle OOS.

Nair out of shield is safe against spot dodges and can be a great kill/edge guard set up at higher percents but a sweet nair doesn't combo into anything at lower percents if you do hit and sets you above your opponent if it doesn't which isn't exactly favorable.

Jab combo is a cool idea but if some one shields instead of dodging in those extra three frames, well thats been said.

I like grab as an option it can lead to more damage with pummeling to throw to uair or fair than even full hop sweet nair, it puts them ultimately above you or off the stage which is good most of the time.