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Still, it does come up sometimes, like you reflex shield grab puff's f-smash or it is Sopo.
Against ICs, they are almost the same as marth / peach except extra light. Most of the same stuff works. I don't know the window for d-throw dair, but it is probably a little lower than 100. I usually just got with d-throw up-tilt or d-throw up-air.
I guess these characters are all similar since they are basically lighter floaty characters. Puff is about the same, but even lighter, so everything is lower numbers. D-throw dair is nice, but I usually just do d-throw up-air since it is easier to land (not sure if either are guaranteed).
I can agree that grabs are not worth it on puff. I've tried and any time you miss you can say goodbye to that stock because it's a free rest for her. On the rare occasion that you can get a guaranteed grab they can work wonders though
SAUS, any more info on the grab punishes on Sheik? I would add in the previous post in the MU thread, but we agreed to hold off on it until we learned more.
SAUS, any more info on the grab punishes on Sheik? I would add in the previous post in the MU thread, but we agreed to hold off on it until we learned more.
I don't have anything super confirmed, yet. I do find up-throw up-tilt is a good choice after around 15 damage on Shiek. She has to jump to get out, so you can turn it into a mixup where they might lose their double jump or eat multiple up-tilts (or both). Before that, you have to down-throw tech chase afaik.
Down-throw up-b seems to work all the way up to around 100 damage or maybe even a bit more, but I still have to test where they try to go straight up. You can probably hit with an up-air in that case, depending on their damage, or up-tilt should be guaranteed.
I think it is better to do up-throw up-air starting from 30, but switch to d-throw up-tilt when it is more guaranteed (45-50) and then use up-b as a way to set them up for edge guards.
I have lots of research to do in this matchup, I think.
In all seriousness, don't take this as a complete confirmation on the numbers yet, but the ranges seem to work well when I took them into account against another friend of mine who mains Sheik (he prefers playing her more after I used Fox and Marth to chaingrab his Fox and Falco, lol, although I probably shouldn't be laughing at that while he still disrespects my Falcon in the Sheik MU). The general advised followups work well so far with allowing me to tech chase and combo Sheik to high percents until I could set up a kill combo or position, but I'll have to check if he was using any proper DI though. Also, do we have any idea on what to do with grabs on the mid-tiers (Samus, Pika, Yoshi, Luigi, Mario, Doc, Ganondorf, and, IMO, Young Link and Link)? I have a decent idea on punishes from grabs on Ganondorf, but I'll have to record the percentages. We can forgo the low tiers for a while.
Meanwhile, Egast dood, It's almost April Foo's Day!
I was playing about a week ago against a Fox. I kind of did it by accident at first, but I think it is legit. Basically, at 90-100%, you can do up-throw, short-hop up-air, fast fall so that you get the weak hit, and then get a down air as a follow up. It was when he DI'd sideways. You jump kind of late and I don't think you need to run before jumping, so it seemed pretty easy. The dair had to be a bit precise though. This should be good on stadium and FD, and, to a lesser extent, on Dreamland and Battlefield.
I think you can do dthrow to dair on them to kill them and also do dthrow->utilt->uair. I don't really grab neither of them ever. Puff can dodge your grab and punish with an easy rest. ICs can punish with a wobble. The risk reward ratio tilts over into too much risk for too little reward. I strongly recommend you to not try to grab in either of these matchups.
EDIT: That came off as a little douchy, which not is my intention. I simply want to stress that grabs are not for every matchup.
A) You have counted her jumps and she does a high aerial on your shield as she lands, OR you know her well enough to see that she did a falling aerial and will HAVE to land after it [I think if she does any of her "Strong" aerials she has to land, but if she weak fairs your shield I'm pretty sure she can jump again].
B) She does a smash attack on your shield.
C) She misses a rest and you can't KO her with dair or up+B at her current percent, and you'd rather use a grab punish than attempt throw boomerang -> go behind her -> fsmash1 -> boomerang hits her and kills off her momentum -> fsmash2.
Solo IC can be grabbed somewhat safely (at least as safely as you can grab any other character, which isn't very safe), and it's generally easy to grab the AI if you've hit the player-controlled IC offstage. Grab is stupidly risky beyond that, since even if wobbling is banned there's a CG they can do with even a single climber, and handoffs and the like are never banned.
I was playing about a week ago against a Fox. I kind of did it by accident at first, but I think it is legit. Basically, at 90-100%, you can do up-throw, short-hop up-air, fast fall so that you get the weak hit, and then get a down air as a follow up. It was when he DI'd sideways. You jump kind of late and I don't think you need to run before jumping, so it seemed pretty easy. The dair had to be a bit precise though. This should be good on stadium and FD, and, to a lesser extent, on Dreamland and Battlefield.
I have landed late uair -> dair many times on Fox, but doing it from a uthrow??? I feel like they'd have to miss the DI for that to occur though... or else I'd think you'd have to at least start a dash before jumping? Test please, this is awesome news if even with best DI this works at 100%, as it will KO on some stages and still be a solid 30+% on Fox, who now has to land.
I have landed late uair -> dair many times on Fox, but doing it from a uthrow??? I feel like they'd have to miss the DI for that to occur though... or else I'd think you'd have to at least start a dash before jumping? Test please, this is awesome news if even with best DI this works at 100%, as it will KO on some stages and still be a solid 30+% on Fox, who now has to land.
Still need more testing, but I did land it a couple times yesterday (at a tournament - unfortunately, I don't think I did it on stream at all). Seems like it might actually work starting at like 80-85 lol. I will post my test results here when I get them.
Aside from the punishes off the grabs themselves, I keep on trying to think of ways to lead into or setup the grab and therefore the punish. In the case of Fox, what circumstances were there that lead to this accidental punish? The combo itself seems legit, but the player has to get the grab first. For example, to make the early percents Dthrow tech chase easier on species, I usually attempt to get them onto platforms in order to limit their options and make it easier to respond to. Things like that.
Aside from the punishes off the grabs themselves, I keep on trying to think of ways to lead into or setup the grab and therefore the punish. In the case of Fox, what circumstances were there that lead to this accidental punish? The combo itself seems legit, but the player has to get the grab first. For example, to make the early percents Dthrow tech chase easier on species, I usually attempt to get them onto platforms in order to limit their options and make it easier to respond to. Things like that.
That's a perfect spot to apply the no-impact-land tomahawk grab. I actually theorized about a chain grab on platforms that is inescapable for spacies and falcon. If you grab them from the middle of the platform, you can just grab the direction you need to and d-throw until up-b connects. I still can't land grabs on reaction to tech on spot well enough to do that, though, and it is hard to start it up.
I usually get grabs off of tech chases, shield grabs (requires mistake from your opponent, though), air bombs (grab them where they land - not so good against non fast-fallers), and pivot grab punishes (essentially dash dance grab, but Link doesn't need to cover distance that he overshoots when dashing away). I also occasionally get grabs that are just reads. Like if they keep shielding in front of me or if they are just staying grounded in general.
Anyone who gets shield-grabbed by us deserves to be shield-grabbed really. I guess I'll have to look at examples of the air bombs to grabs since I've been trying to get grabs off of projectiles for a while and have been unsuccessful. Pivot grabs and tech chases seem to be the easier ones to do I guess for all Link players. No-impact-land tomahawk grab huh? I haven't been exposed to the use of tomahawk techniques since it's one of the only ones that I haven't seen used in talking or application (at least that I could see). What do you mean by tomahawk grab? I know what no-impact-land is thanks to your mentioning of it in the optimizing Link thread.
Anyone who gets shield-grabbed by us deserves to be shield-grabbed really. I guess I'll have to look at examples of the air bombs to grabs since I've been trying to get grabs off of projectiles for a while and have been unsuccessful. Pivot grabs and tech chases seem to be the easier ones to do I guess for all Link players. No-impact-land tomahawk grab huh? I haven't been exposed to the use of tomahawk techniques since it's one of the only ones that I haven't seen used in talking or application (at least that I could see). What do you mean by tomahawk grab? I know what no-impact-land is thanks to your mentioning of it in the optimizing Link thread.
Tomahawk is literally just a jump where you don't do anything. I think it is a term from traditional fighting games, but I really can't be sure. Googling stuff about tomahawks gets a lot of noisy results lol.
Basically, the situation you would want to do this is when someone is shielding on a platform and you are below. Many people are waiting for something to hit their shield (works on grounded opponents as well, but no impact land is much more surprising), so instead of doing an aerial (and getting punished by shield drop or something), you just no impact land and grab them.
I did some testing with the throw combo I was experimenting with and it seems like my friend could DI too far away (he was Falco). I am not sure if I was executing it wrong or not, though. I will need more testing to figure it out.
Tomahawk is literally just a jump where you don't do anything. I think it is a term from traditional fighting games, but I really can't be sure. Googling stuff about tomahawks gets a lot of noisy results lol.
Basically, the situation you would want to do this is when someone is shielding on a platform and you are below. Many people are waiting for something to hit their shield (works on grounded opponents as well, but no impact land is much more surprising), so instead of doing an aerial (and getting punished by shield drop or something), you just no impact land and grab them.
I did some testing with the throw combo I was experimenting with and it seems like my friend could DI too far away (he was Falco). I am not sure if I was executing it wrong or not, though. I will need more testing to figure it out.
Oh okay, I guess I have more traditional fighting game terms to learn. I know the competitive smash terms well, but I still can learn more applications of them.
Hmm, maybe there is a percentage range that fast-fallers need to be in to be stuck in the chaingrab? But the grab can still be used for tech chases still worst comes to worst. If the chaingrab works, we could see if it works on the fourth and fifth fastest fallers to see the range of characters that the chaingrab works. Specifically, what aspects make this chaingrab theoretically possible? I would've thought that one could DI away and tech unless the character has to stay on the platforms. I would've thought that it would be a tech chase in that case. Link maybe has achaingrab still to optimize.
Oh okay, I guess I have more traditional fighting game terms to learn. I know the competitive smash terms well, but I still can learn more applications of them.
Hmm, maybe there is a percentage range that fast-fallers need to be in to be stuck in the chaingrab? But the grab can still be used for tech chases still worst comes to worst. If the chaingrab works, we could see if it works on the fourth and fifth fastest fallers to see the range of characters that the chaingrab works. Specifically, what aspects make this chaingrab theoretically possible? I would've thought that one could DI away and tech unless the character has to stay on the platforms. I would've thought that it would be a tech chase in that case. Link maybe has achaingrab still to optimize.
It is like a tech chase infinite, since you don't have to move. You just have to react, and it should be easier. Standing in the middle of the platform will allow you to cover all tech options without moving. You'd be able to reset it each time with another down throw.
It is like a tech chase infinite, since you don't have to move. You just have to react, and it should be easier. Standing in the middle of the platform will allow you to cover all tech options without moving. You'd be able to reset it each time with another down throw.
Oh, that makes sense. Link can grab from behind a little bit, so that helps to make this work. I would've thought to turn around at certain points though.
Oh, that makes sense. Link can grab from behind a little bit, so that helps to make this work. I would've thought to turn around at certain points though.
Ya, you'd have to turn around if they tech behind you, but I find tech rolls pretty easy to react to. Just make sure you are facing them before they tech so that tech on spot is a little easier.
I think what I need to do is react to the tech animation. I sort of just react to the movement of the character or the lack of movement, so I think that delays me when I don't need it to. I should at least memorise the animation for spacies - especially since it is the same for both.
Since SAUS hasn't replied in a while, it would depend on the percent really. Maybe the higher end of mid percents but not low percents. At high percents there are better ways to get the kill or edgeguard setup.
Sorry, I was on a bit of a break to shake a bad mindset. I think up-throw up-b actually just combos, it's just that it stops comboing by the time it's actually a good idea (at the percents where it works, it hits too softly to be safe). I think you can maybe do up-throw up-b at about 25-30% or so and it will connect, but it won't do much unless they DI off the stage. They probably won't be doing that. You definitely don't have time to wavedash AND up-b, though.
Sorry, I was on a bit of a break to shake a bad mindset. I think up-throw up-b actually just combos, it's just that it stops comboing by the time it's actually a good idea (at the percents where it works, it hits too softly to be safe). I think you can maybe do up-throw up-b at about 25-30% or so and it will connect, but it won't do much unless they DI off the stage. They probably won't be doing that. You definitely don't have time to wavedash AND up-b, though.
Nope tech on spot is very hard to react to. I want to sit down and practice it, but I think I will just wait for 20xx TE.
Up-throw weak up-air on spacies is weird. It seems to work a lot of the time, but I couldn't get it on one of my friends (though he was falco - all other tests were on fox). He seemed to be able to DI too far away.
I'm having some trouble with throw combos on marth at 0%. It might be better to up-throw until around 25% or something where down-throw up-tilt will always connect. I will have to mess around with it. It's important to make grabs lead to a lot with Link because they are hard to land
I like d-throw d-smash on Marth at really low percents, but only against Marths that haven't played against many Links before. If the Marth player is ready for it, he'll just DI away and deny you any follow-ups besides maybe double jab. No DI leaves him open for a bunch of stuff though, like nair to regrab. It's just that pesky DI nonsense that makes life difficult.
/edit: I also don't think it's possible to react to tech in place with Link's grab. The hitbox takes 11 frames to come out, and the tech in place animation lasts only 26 frames. And a 15 frame window is super rough for reaction.
15 frames is definitely doable, just very tight. You'd have to be able to react to frame 1 or 2 of the tech as well. I wonder if I could do like shield drop up-air for tech on spot. Hits on frame 6 if you do it right. But then you'd have separate inputs for different tech options which makes it tricky in a different way.
Oh actually, I bet you could platform cancel an up air to cover tech in place. Shield dropping it would be extra useful so that you could avoid a get up attack, but you could also just not shield and commit to jab-resetting a missed tech on reaction. I think at really low percents, up air would just set up a hard knock down too.
Maybe I'm just a scrub, but I've never been able to react to tech in place with a grab. When I go for reaction tech chases on the stage, I typically just d-smash the tech in place. Which sucks because species don't even get knocked down by it until like 30%. I really want the tech chase to be a thing because reacting to tech rolls with the grab is so easy.
I miss tech on spot sooo much. I can get it with non-grab options, but it's very hard with grab. The numbers show it as possible, though. What I need to practice is looking for the animation and reacting to that animation. I am pretty sure you can tell what tech option it is on frame 1 of all of spacy techs.
On the Mountain transformation of Pokemon Stadium:
F throw toward the slanted platform. Since Link's standing (or jump canceled) grab works up slopes, you can get an easy tech-chase re-grab.
Link's dash-grab goes through walls, and you can pull people through the wall for a throw if you buffer it with the C-stick (there are some factors I haven't figured out yet, but try it a bunch at different heights on the slanted platform. (The wall here is specifically the right side of the Fox Hole.)
Chaingrabs?!:
They aren't real, but Link can chaingrab spacies from something like 35-45 if they don't DI. Remember, that Link can only grab aerial opponents for the first 3 frames of standing grab (right on his hand) and the first frame of dash grab. (There's a chance they can jump out.)
Ludicrously high & (>150):
Here's where d-throw spin doesn't work anymore, even on spacies. However, now you can do d-throw to nair or something like that. Also, u-throw to bomb pull is solid. It gives you a lot of control. Probably enough to land that last hit.
Back throw is still depressingly useless except at the ledge, but f-throw might (very might) have some utility.
Okay I separated peach and marth and updated the wording a bit. Marth is mostly weird because you have to d-smash if he DIs all the way behind you, but otherwise you up-tilt like you do with Peach. It's something you have to watch out for or you may waste some punishes off of grabs.
What do people think about grabbing ICs? I really want to be able to pressure them. I feel like I can't make ICs scared of any of my moves because they can just shield all of them. If I can't make them scared to get off the ground or at least move around more, I basically will just get boxed out and then eventually either trapped or in bad mixup situations where the punish is dying no matter what % I am at.
It's either that or stand on platforms for up to half an hour in a bo5 and automatically concede the FD game.
I asked Perhapsman a bit about this, but I don't quite know how it works in practice. Seems like it is hard to determine which IC will get hit by the grab if they are just standing there shielding. I will test this myself tonight, hopefully.
One thing that I think is important to know is that if you grab Popo, Nana will run up to you and then do a running turn around (basically like 20 or 30 frames where she does absolutely nothing and that is not including the part where she runs to you). This gives you a lot of time to throw Popo (I'm guess up-throw might be the safest bet, though down-throw up-tilt might hit both of them - I will try to test this out too).
Okay I separated peach and marth and updated the wording a bit. Marth is mostly weird because you have to d-smash if he DIs all the way behind you, but otherwise you up-tilt like you do with Peach. It's something you have to watch out for or you may waste some punishes off of grabs.
What do people think about grabbing ICs? I really want to be able to pressure them. I feel like I can't make ICs scared of any of my moves because they can just shield all of them. If I can't make them scared to get off the ground or at least move around more, I basically will just get boxed out and then eventually either trapped or in bad mixup situations where the punish is dying no matter what % I am at.
It's either that or stand on platforms for up to half an hour in a bo5 and automatically concede the FD game.
I asked Perhapsman a bit about this, but I don't quite know how it works in practice. Seems like it is hard to determine which IC will get hit by the grab if they are just standing there shielding. I will test this myself tonight, hopefully.
One thing that I think is important to know is that if you grab Popo, Nana will run up to you and then do a running turn around (basically like 20 or 30 frames where she does absolutely nothing and that is not including the part where she runs to you). This gives you a lot of time to throw Popo (I'm guess up-throw might be the safest bet, though down-throw up-tilt might hit both of them - I will try to test this out too).
I don't know nearly enough about how the Ice Climbers work, but I think if you absolutely know for sure that you'll be grabbing Popo, then grabbing them is useful. Sheik can't afford to grab either climber because her throws take too long, but Link is capable of grabbing Popo from far away with the hookshot. That'll make Nana's weird reaction to the grab take even longer, and Link is heavy enough to get some kind of throw off before she can retaliate. I usually opt for d-throw if I grab Popo, but I have no idea whether or not that throw is guaranteed. However when I do get the throw off, I virtually always am able to u-tilt both climbers because Nana is an idiot.
I also don't think grabbing them is.. absolutely necessary. Like on FD, I try to pressure them into a corner with bombs and jabs. You can't really poke the double shield shenanigans, but bouncing a bomb off the top of it will at least scare them from wave dashing in at you if you're close enough to them. You can also jab their shields with relative safety because of jab's great range. It's easy to space outside their grab range, which would make them need some kind of wavedash OoS grab to hit you. Jab is negative on shield but not negative enough to allow a punish that way.
Side note, ducking to Hylian shield the ice blocks is hilarious.
If they don't light shield, you can shield poke them the same way as everyone else, pretty much. You wait about a second and then d-smash from very close range. It might be what I need to use to pressure them. Grab seems risky for too many reasons. No idea what will happen most of the time lol.
I know this thread is kinda old, but we might want to look at some characters and our grab punishes. In Project M, Link has the following chaingrabs on Melee characters:
G&W: 0 – 67 (must start pivot grabbing no DI at 67)
Kirby: 4 – 19
Pikachu: 17 – 88 (must start pivot grabbing no DI at 81)
Sheik: 73 – 136 (must start pivot grabbing no DI at 129)
Roy: 75 - 163 (must start pivot grabbing no DI at 144)
Ganon: 112 - 112 (this one is basically useless but I'll mention it to include them all)
***Tink: 60 - 139 (must start pivot grabbing no DI at 119)
[There are some PM-only characters, like Sonic, that he can chaingrab as well, but I've omitted them for brevity and because they don't affect Melee. ]
***Yink =/= Tink, but there may be a chaingrab nonetheless. If there is one and he can't do it back, that would also help swing that MU to even/our favor as opposed to the current MU chart which says we lose slightly.
Some notes about these numbers:
- Pivot grab means you dash, turn for 1 frame, and do a standing grab. It's like a perfect pivot in Smash 4, for those who know what that is [or the pivot fsmash PewPewU used on Hbox at Apex 2015]. I personally don't bother with these since I think I have better things to learn that are more practical (such as just executing the CG within the non-pivot percents correctly), but I'm including the full data for people who want to be super technical Link mains and CG everyone as much as possible.
- These are all after-damage percentages in a frame-perfect world (so if your dthrow leaves Pikachu at 17% you can start regrabs from what I understand).
- The fastest way to escape is no DI and jumping at the top end of the range, and to mess you up, people should DI hard behind and try to tech the ground.
- You should NOT jump-cancel grab***. You should only use running grab, standing grab, and pivot grab to maximize both ends of the chaingrab [JC-grab makes the bottom end percentage ranges rise because Link moves farther with dash grab***].
***True in PM, but Melee Link runs slower, so IDK if running grab vs frame-perfect JC grab is different.
- Where hitstun in PM rises one frame on Link dthrow: 5, 17, 29, 41, 53, 65, 77, 89, 100, 112, 124 (these numbers may differ in Melee).
Credits to Ian (Titanium) for this information [he's in a PM Link Skype chat and tested this stuff in debug mode].
Now, I know this is Melee, not PM, but I think our dthrows are identical [that is, I think we get the same advantage in Melee as in PM, and the angle is the same, etc.]. While three of those characters probably don't need to be bothered with [GnW, Kirby, Roy], and Ganondorf's CG is one regrab at exactly 112%, the Sheik chaingrab goes from 73% to death [you can do dthrow uair or dthrow dair or dthrow spin around 130%], and the Pikachu chaingrab is from 20% to almost death or death, and a near zero-to-death chaingrab with Link could really swing the MU in our favor.
I've messed around with chaingrabbing Pikachu and I know I can get regrabs [I've done it in friendlies to our one Pikachu main, although I've yet to play him in tournament since learning about this], but seriously, we should check out the Sheik chaingrab, since grabbing Sheik at 70 and killing her is huge [and it would also be deliciously ironic, no?]. I have done regrabs on her as well, but again, not sure if they are real or not.
P.S: We may have a uthrow CG on Fox... it was removed in PM with some uthrow nerfs, and I'm not sure if uthrow was nerfed to Melee or nerfed to be worse than Melee, but here's an example of that prior to nerfs... it's also probably worth looking into [on Fox and Falco, no such CG in PM ever existed on Falcon as far as I know]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUSTQaRJe7M&t=20s [the regrabs prior to tumble are almost certainly fraudulent, but there may be a CG from about 35-50, which is two or three regrabs and helps extend our punish game to where dash attack launches more favorably]. I'm not sure if we JC these or strictly dash grab or what [assuming it's real]. SAUS
I think this is where it'd be a good idea to see about getting PerhapsMan's help on these?
I know this thread is kinda old, but we might want to look at some characters and our grab punishes. In Project M, Link has the following chaingrabs on Melee characters:
G&W: 0 – 67 (must start pivot grabbing no DI at 67)
Kirby: 4 – 19
Pikachu: 17 – 88 (must start pivot grabbing no DI at 81)
Sheik: 73 – 136 (must start pivot grabbing no DI at 129)
Roy: 75 - 163 (must start pivot grabbing no DI at 144)
Ganon: 112 - 112 (this one is basically useless but I'll mention it to include them all)
***Tink: 60 - 139 (must start pivot grabbing no DI at 119)
[There are some PM-only characters, like Sonic, that he can chaingrab as well, but I've omitted them for brevity and because they don't affect Melee. ]
***Yink =/= Tink, but there may be a chaingrab nonetheless. If there is one and he can't do it back, that would also help swing that MU to even/our favor as opposed to the current MU chart which says we lose slightly.
Some notes about these numbers:
- Pivot grab means you dash, turn for 1 frame, and do a standing grab. It's like a perfect pivot in Smash 4, for those who know what that is [or the pivot fsmash PewPewU used on Hbox at Apex 2015]. I personally don't bother with these since I think I have better things to learn that are more practical (such as just executing the CG within the non-pivot percents correctly), but I'm including the full data for people who want to be super technical Link mains and CG everyone as much as possible.
- These are all after-damage percentages in a frame-perfect world (so if your dthrow leaves Pikachu at 17% you can start regrabs from what I understand).
- The fastest way to escape is no DI and jumping at the top end of the range, and to mess you up, people should DI hard behind and try to tech the ground.
- You should NOT jump-cancel grab***. You should only use running grab, standing grab, and pivot grab to maximize both ends of the chaingrab [JC-grab makes the bottom end percentage ranges rise because Link moves farther with dash grab***].
***True in PM, but Melee Link runs slower, so IDK if running grab vs frame-perfect JC grab is different.
- Where hitstun in PM rises one frame on Link dthrow: 5, 17, 29, 41, 53, 65, 77, 89, 100, 112, 124 (these numbers may differ in Melee).
Credits to Ian (Titanium) for this information [he's in a PM Link Skype chat and tested this stuff in debug mode].
Now, I know this is Melee, not PM, but I think our dthrows are identical [that is, I think we get the same advantage in Melee as in PM, and the angle is the same, etc.]. While three of those characters probably don't need to be bothered with [GnW, Kirby, Roy], and Ganondorf's CG is one regrab at exactly 112%, the Sheik chaingrab goes from 73% to death [you can do dthrow uair or dthrow dair or dthrow spin around 130%], and the Pikachu chaingrab is from 20% to almost death or death, and a near zero-to-death chaingrab with Link could really swing the MU in our favor.
I've messed around with chaingrabbing Pikachu and I know I can get regrabs [I've done it in friendlies to our one Pikachu main, although I've yet to play him in tournament since learning about this], but seriously, we should check out the Sheik chaingrab, since grabbing Sheik at 70 and killing her is huge [and it would also be deliciously ironic, no?]. I have done regrabs on her as well, but again, not sure if they are real or not.
P.S: We may have a uthrow CG on Fox... it was removed in PM with some uthrow nerfs, and I'm not sure if uthrow was nerfed to Melee or nerfed to be worse than Melee, but here's an example of that prior to nerfs... it's also probably worth looking into [on Fox and Falco, no such CG in PM ever existed on Falcon as far as I know]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUSTQaRJe7M&t=20s [the regrabs prior to tumble are almost certainly fraudulent, but there may be a CG from about 35-50, which is two or three regrabs and helps extend our punish game to where dash attack launches more favorably]. I'm not sure if we JC these or strictly dash grab or what [assuming it's real]. SAUS
I think this is where it'd be a good idea to see about getting PerhapsMan's help on these?
I have chaingrabbed Pikachu before in Melee, but I always assumed it was just awful DI. Typically getting full DI behind Link makes that kind of thing really rough.
I used to be a PM main player until I moved to Georgia, and for a time I was the 5th best PM player in Pittsburgh. However I played PM 3.0, and Link's grab was a few frames faster in that game. Do you know how many frames it takes for Link's grab to come out in the current version of PM? It's possible that it's still faster, which would make Melee CG's less reliable.
Also I'm pretty sure that Link's running grab can't grab out of the air at all in Melee (not even the hand hitbox), so JC might be necessary if you have to run forward.
I have chaingrabbed Pikachu before in Melee, but I always assumed it was just awful DI. Typically getting full DI behind Link makes that kind of thing really rough.
I used to be a PM main player until I moved to Georgia, and for a time I was the 5th best PM player in Pittsburgh. However I played PM 3.0, and Link's grab was a few frames faster in that game. Do you know how many frames it takes for Link's grab to come out in the current version of PM? It's possible that it's still faster, which would make Melee CG's less reliable.
Also I'm pretty sure that Link's running grab can't grab out of the air at all in Melee (not even the hand hitbox), so JC might be necessary if you have to run forward.
...Well rats. I thought was just messing it up, but setting a CPU to jump and dash grabbing, I couldn't get a dash grab at all. It didn't occur to me that the handbox on PM Link's grab was buffed. Just another reason to always JC grab.
Also, after messing around a little, it seemed too hard to be able to dash back and JC grab Sheik, so it's likely we don't actually have that CG. I got a few on Pikachu, but only high percent, so I'm guessing if there is a chaingrab, it's a lot smaller than PM's [due to having to JC grab and Link running slower]. Oh well...
I kind of abandoned looking at Link chain grabs a long time ago. It always seemed to be inconsistent/maybe impossible at best. I remember I chain grabbed G&W, but if he DIs all the way behind you, he still hits the ground too early (from random tests).
However, it might be useful in the same way Falcon "chain grabs" are in that they are just a solid punish on bad DI. It may be worth looking into a bit again. It's a ton of data to look at, though, so I'd rather come in with a specific request for Perhapsman. Asking for "what DI and what % on every character can Link chain grab them" would be insane lol.
Out of all those characters, Shiek seems to be the only one that really matters (and maybe pikachu - especially due to the damage range for PM). I'll see if he can test that out.
You can chaingrab Pikachu better than you think in Melee. My friend Daniel (goes by dbag for his tag, lol) is the debug mode guru for Georgia, and he told me that with full DI behind, you can't regrab Pikachu until 49.5%. However, from this point on, the regrabs work until 80%. At this point, you can d-throw up-B on any DI away, and you should still be able to d-throw dair on no DI or slight DI behind (which might actually KO Pikachu at this percent on small stages). Not a game changing CG, but pretty handy if you get a grab in that percent range.
edit: And with no DI or full DI in front, you can CG Pikachu from 20% all the way to 80%. It's also super free for a while because until about 70 or so, you don't even have to move. Just press Z at the right time, and your large hand grab hitbox does the work for you. You could probably react to the DI, and if Pikachu DI's behind you, go for turn around u-tilt.
Don't mean to double post, but it's ben a while since this thread last saw activity anyway. I was thinking about how to best rack damage on space animals when I get a grab at 0%, or any percent where u-throw won't knock down yet. I talked to Druggedfox about grab punishes on spaceys during my flight home from Genesis, and he doesn't think a reaction tech chase is possible with a 9 frame d-smash (though he admits that on his absolute best days, he could probably make it happen). Still, the close hit of d-smash won't knock down until Fox is at 11%, so if you get a grab at 0%, you're going to have to d-throw and go for a tech read.
If you guess on Fox's tech with grab, you'll be able to try a reaction tech chase on your next throw, assuming you pummel once per throw (you're guaranteed one pummel if you buffer the throw input, so there's no reason not to do it). However, you're still stuck in a situation where Fox is in crouch cancel percent for a while, and your reactions need to be extremely on point to tech chase him. I think instead, the best bet is guessing on his tech with f-smash. Should you miss your guess, f-smash only lasts 49 frames instead of 85 frames for grab, making you harder to punish. If you hit, you can chain it into the second hit of f-smash to deal massive damage, getting Fox over 40% even if you grabbed him at 0. You won't really get anything after your smash attack, but you'll be back in neutral with way more options available to beat his CC.
If you want to cover Fox's tech options, it turns out that his DI matters. I tested it in develop mode, and I discovered four move choices that cover all of his tech options once he hits the ground. If you wait around 10 frames and f-smash in front of you, it covers DI behind tech forward, DI forward tech in place, and DI forward no tech. Waiting the same amount of time and f-smashing behind you covers DI behind tech in place, DI behind no tech, DI forward tech behind, no DI tech in place, and no DI no tech. Doing a wavedash f-smash forward covers DI forward tech forward and no DI tech forward. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, you need to do a dash wavedash f-smash behind to cover DI behind tech behind (just wavedashing back and f-smashing will cover the no DI tech behind, but you need slightly more distance to get the full behind DI).
Fox can escape the second hit of f-smash at 0% by ASDI'ing down through the first hit and buffering shield. I imagine most Fox players won't know this, but if they figure it out, just don't do the second hit. He'll still be at 23% after this read, which is enough for u-throw d-smash to start working if you get another grab. I haven't tried this out on Falco to see if his longer tech roll makes a difference, but my guess is that all it'll do is require a dash wavedash to f-smash his forward tech.
If fox techs dthrow in place at 0% and you fsmash him he can asdi down the first hit and shine you because link reaches into him. This is why bomb>double hit fsmash is only guaranteed if you hit fox out of the air with the bomb. I didn't know about that at the time and got punished for it at a tournament a while back. Just something to keep in mind, but I like the fsmash idea. I tend to techchase until they catch on and spotdodge and then I go for hits instead. stuff like sh fair, fsmash, or dsmash, or fj nair mixups if they like to jump.
I haven't tested it yet but I think dthrow>walk forward>dsmash/turnaround dsmash covers everything besides tech behinds. I see j666 and germ doing it
The f-smash against Fox is something I tend to do at low percent for basically the reasons stated by Bravo. The problem is, indeed, that he can just ASDI down shine -> punish. It's not good to rely on your opponent not knowing how to deal with something since that is literally my definition for "gimmick". It's just not reliable and can be bad.
However, I still do it, anyway - at least sometimes (I think it might be safe against certain DI off the throw as well due to spacing). If they miss tech, they are screwed (they eat all the damage and end up at 40%). If they tech away, you can still hit Fox with the second hit because his tech is short (doesn't work on falco though).
Fox punishes usually aren't too bad, and taking a shine -> something punish at low % is often not a bad trade for removing fox's CC ability. It also does have that 3 options coverage, and the reward is pretty OP in some cases.
Hey... I recently performed a grab punish that seems to work. I tried it against a Sheik, and it was: Up-Throw > Jab > Any follow-up, if it works.
I want to know if this works and if it does, against which characters does it work? I think it may work at 0%, but I'm not sure, I just want to know if anyone could try this for me.
Hey... I recently performed a grab punish that seems to work. I tried it against a Sheik, and it was: Up-Throw > Jab > Any follow-up, if it works.
I want to know if this works and if it does, against which characters does it work? I think it may work at 0%, but I'm not sure, I just want to know if anyone could try this for me.
It works against Fox. And on Marth, but with Down Throw. I do that a lot. Personally I tend to go for the regrab (I really like regrabs), but WD back and waiting might be good if they tend to roll/Jump.
tech on spot is very hard to react to. I want to sit down and practice it, but I think I will just wait for 20xx TE.
