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Grab punishes with Link

Discussion in 'Link' started by SAUS, Jan 21, 2015.

  1. SAUS

    SAUS
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    I don't know if one exists already, but someone mentioned in another thread that they'd like to see grab percents for punishes on whatever characters. I want this guide to eventually be quite thorough, but for now, it will just have some rough numbers that I know off the top of my head. Post any corrections or other options that you know of as well as for characters that are not listed here.

    I realised it was not mentioned, but all these numbers apply before you execute the throw. I think that was fairly obvious, though, since it is the easiest way to interpret and apply the numbers.

    Fox/Falco
    0-16: down throw and hope for a tech chase. Up throw will not knock them down and I'm pretty sure they can just fall down and shine you.

    17-35: up throw and then down smash. It is important to always hold up because if they don't DI, you have to up-tilt them instead. You might have to walk a bit towards them after the throw, but it is quite easy once you get the hang of it. If there is a platform above, it sets up the tech chase because it knocks them down.

    36-50: up throw into dash attack/nair (or up-tilt when they don't DI). Then try to figure out what to do after the attack lands. I find the dash attack doesn't lead to anything if they DI it away, but it at least can put them on a platform or gain you a ton of stage control.

    51-95: up throw into up air. You have to run before jumping and I think you short hop at the lower range and then you have to full jump at the higher range.

    96-105: up throw into running full jump down air. If they don't DI, you have to full jump, double jump down air. This is a very solid killing combo on FD and pokemon stadium.

    106-125: up throw into running double jump forward air. Double jump up air if they don't DI. This will at least launch them off stage for the edge guard, but this damage window tends to be worse than slightly above it or slightly below it.

    126+: down throw into up-b. Make sure to turn around before you up-b if they DI behind you (at least when they are at lower damage). Link's up-b hits slower behind him and I think DIing behind him on the down throw makes them land a little sooner.

    Captain Falcon
    Pretty much the same as spacies, but you have to add around 10% for all the windows. I don't think up-throw into dair connects on him, but I haven't really tried it. At lower damage, his tech is slow enough that you can actually fairly easily chain grab him the same way Shiek does. It's just really dangerous if you miss.

    It is notable that bair often combos directly into a grab on falcon. It is a combination of his weight and fall speed. It should work up until around 40-50, and sometimes you can land a bair off of an up-throw. Note that this will not work if they crouch cancel, so it should only truly be considered when they are in the air when your bair lands or as some sort of read, which I don't recommend.

    Peach
    0-50: down-throw into up-tilt into up-air or fair (depends how they DI). If they DI the down throw and up-tilt in the same direction, you can't get a true combo except at some specific percents. You may get the best results by sharking under them since Peach has poor options in that position.

    41-95: down-throw into up-air. You don't get any more off of it directly, but they are way in the sky and you will have a bomb before they get back down.

    96-105: down-throw into down-air. It is often instant death. I don't know if it's guaranteed off of DI behind, though.

    106+: down-throw into up-air. At around 135, it will just kill them outright. At some point, you have to dash in the direction they DI and then do the up-air. You don't need to full jump until stupidly high damage, so don't worry about that for the most part. Alternatively, nair is an okay option since it puts them off stage.

    Marth
    I thought the grab followups were the same for Marth and Peach, but they are actually quite different for the lower damages. An important point to note is that Peach has short range, so you can outspace her attack options with your sword. Marth, on the other hand, makes jumping follow ups really bad if they are not true combos (or nearly true combos).

    0-50: down-throw and either up-tilt or turn around d-smash. If he DIs all the way behind you, he will hit the ground before the back end of the up-tilt will hit. Turning around and then up-tilting will cause the up-tilt to miss in this case because it has short range on the front side of it. You need to turn around down-smash him in this case.

    Off of either, you should fish for either more up-tilts (if he DIs bad - inwards) or dash attacks (he DIs away - you should aim to ASDI down as well so that he can't pull you off the ground). Aim for early hits with the dash attack so that it at least trades with stuff like dair.

    51-95: down-throw into up-air or fair/nair (up-air leads to more juggling and damage building, fair / nair leads to edge guard situations - choose based on stage positioning mostly).

    96-105: down-throw dair. I find it really hard to do if he DIs behind you in this case, but I think it might be guaranteed. You have to be quick though.

    106+: down-throw up-air or fair/nair. Basically the same as 51-95. Keep in mind that down-throw up-air will kill at around 130 or so on most stages, so you should go for that once he starts getting to higher percents.

    Shiek - Note that these numbers are more rough since I haven't had the time to test them out thoroughly.
    0-29: down-throw and tech chase. I don't know the exact percent - I would guess about 17% - but you can up throw for a tech chase on platforms. You should aim to tech chase with up-airs since they tack on a lot of damage and the sweetspot hit I don't think is crouch cancellable at this damage.

    I'll have to experiment more, but I think up-throw up-tilt might connect or force a jump between 20 and 30 damage.

    30-70: up-throw into up-air. You can also connect down-throw down-smash at almost exactly 30 damage, but having Shiek in the air is better. I feel like it is not a true combo a lot of the time, but the opportunity gained by having her in the air is pretty big.

    There's a big overlap of things that connect from around 30 - 100. You can also do down-throw up-tilt for most or all of this percent range. I haven't mapped out what I think is the best to do, but up-throw up-air tends to be quite effective.

    70-100: down-throw up-b seems to connect. I am not certain if they can DI to go as upwards as possible to escape, but I feel like they can. You may be able to connect a dair if they do that, though.

    100+: down-throw up-air or nair. This will be dependent on how close they are to the ledge (nair if it will hit them directly off stage) and how low the ceiling is on the particular stage.

    Anyway, I will add more to this later and hopefully make it a bit cleaner/accurate. I'll try to check in on this every once in a while.
     
    #1 SAUS, Jan 21, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2015
  2. Dextrose

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    does up throw upsmash work on spacies
     
  3. SAUS

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    I am not sure. It might in the 20-40 range if they don't DI the throw (or don't DI it all the way or something).
     
  4. EddyBearr

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    Against some characters, like Peach, Marth, and Sheik, Young Link will down-throw into nair or double reverse bair into regrab, since these will not knock them down. In fact, one time I landed this full sequence with Young Link (though of course this full sequence should never work).

    Have you looked into nair/bair regrabs with Link?
     
    #4 EddyBearr, Jan 23, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2015
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  5. Looticforgothispassword

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    I sometimes do backthrow -> sh bair/nair on the edge vs spacies at low percentages, can get a gimp.

    EDIT:
    Also, I think this will be lovely in the collab project, mind if I copy it over?
     
    #5 Looticforgothispassword, Jan 23, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2015
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  6. squirrels4ev

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    I actually asked for this because I couldn't find it in the collaborative Link guide. If I get a grab near the edge on a low percent spacie with my back to the ledge I like to dthrow and charge Fsmash offstage because sometimes they'll panic and tech in place or even worse tech towards the ledge and that sets up a nasty situation for spacies offstage. You can up-B hog the ledge afterwards which will nick them into position for a near immediate ledge release backair.

    It's a risky play because they can just tech in and you get nothing off your grab but when you really need to make something happen it can be just the right high-risk high-reward move to make.
     
  7. Thor

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    Some notes from when I've played:

    Peach can nair you out of the endlag of dthrow before you get utilt, jab, or anything else before like 35% [AI can do it up to ~35% [maybe higher?] but they're frame-perfect - I know I've been nair'd at 20% on a dthrow by a human, so this is definitely doable by people too]. You can CC and try to punish it, but I think uthrow is generally better, and hope for uair or nair.

    [None of this is 100% known to work, just what I've done]. You may or may not be able to dthrow dsmash Marth if you land a grab at zero percent - I've done this, but at 10% I've had a guy jump the dsmash, so that may not be a thing at any percent. Around 50% or so, I THINK dthrow up+B works, they may be able to jump out of this, but a fresh up+B does like 16% and if they DI dthrow towards the edge this will send them offstage [and getting him offstage gives time to maybe set up an edgeguard or at least pull a bomb].
     
    #7 Thor, Jan 25, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2015
  8. SAUS

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    Yes, definitely.

    I have done a few tries with this, but I think down-throw tech chase is really easy near the edge, so I tend to go for that. I have gotten a few dumb kills this way, but I've only tried them in friendlies. I'll try experimenting with it more.
    I think you can down-throw up-b marth until a decently high damage (like 60 or something) as long as he DIs the throw to either side (literally happens 100% of the time, I find - they never do no DI). I think up-tilt and up-air follow ups are better most of the time, though. Down-throw down-smash works, I'm pretty sure. It hits on the same frame as up-tilt. I'm not sure if it leads to better follow ups or not. Might try it out whenever I fight another marth. There are basically 0 marths in my city lol.

    I will have to look at frame data for the peach thing. Your up-tilt also will have to be frame perfect in order for the results to be accurate. I'll ask my buddy who does this stuff all the time. I have definitely gotten naired out of it, but I've always felt like I was just too slow. Testing will give us the results.

    Not too many regrabs, but I often use these to make opportunities to land the first grab. Bomb grab against spacies seems to be fairly reliable. I think I also got an up-tilt regrab at one of my recent tournaments lol.

    I think I avoid using these too much because they aren't guaranteed in all situations. There's lots of room for weird DI messing it up or things like that. It's definitely super brutal when you can land it. I find captain falcon to be one of the easiest characters for this to work on. Also marth at around 15-20%.
     
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  9. Bravo_10

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    I second down throw d-smashing Marth at 0. But literally only 0, he can get out of that at almost any higher percents. And if I get the d-smash, I usually try to follow it into double jab, then maybe nair or regrab depending on what I think he'll do.

    And I actually really like down throw shield on Peach and Luigi at low percents. Getting anything on them before they nair you is often really hard, but just shielding right away lets you react to what they're going to do, or even just shield grab them if they were spamming nair to get out. I've gotten grab into grab into grab a few times that way.

    /edit: Anybody know which characters down throw -> bair -> regrab works on? And at what percents? Germ showed it off in his Linkology video, and I'm pretty sure Marth gets it until around 40, but I'm far from certain.
     
    #9 Bravo_10, Feb 11, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2015
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  10. Thor

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    I once got grab -> grab -> grab -> grab on a Luigi player because grab -> dthrow shield regrab X2 and I grabbed their empty landing after immediately bringing up shield the third time [my shield was low at that point]. Then I got uthrow into other stuff.

    We should probably find the number where dthrow starts being less than -2 on hit so that we know when this works [since they have frame 3 nairs if memory serves].
     
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  11. Bravo_10

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    Oh really? I had no idea he could nair before I shielded. I've been doing at zero and not getting punished, but maybe the Luigi isn't mashing A hard enough.
     
  12. Thor

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    Turn on a level 9 Luigi or Peach, dthrow at zero, and hold Z during the animation to buffer lightshield [you may be able to hold R or L as well, but I know buffering lightshield works]. If they don't hit you at 0% then I guess it's actually always safe to do this, but I'd swear I've been hit by Peach around 10% even when holding shield. [I say a level 9 AI because they're frame-perfect.] This is how I learned I couldn't seem to utilt before at least 30%. I never tested with shield, but I basically never dthrow at 0% because I don't want to risk it [unless they literally never mash nair].

    And yes, humans aren't frame-perfect, but if you're starting a comeback, sometimes people get lucky, so knowing to pick another throw to play it safe if nair will KO may not be a bad idea.
     
  13. SAUS

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    Huge shoutouts to my friend who helps me with frame data! @PerhapsMan

    This is what he has to say on down-throw -> up-tilt against Peach:
    Link's Dthrow against Peach

    ---

    At 0%
    1 Throw starts
    1-8 Link is invincible
    28 Peach is thrown
    48 Link is actionable
    55 Peach is actionable

    ---

    Link is +7 after the throw at 0%.

    Utilt hits on frame 9 and turnaround Utilt takes an extra frame.

    At 11%, Link is +8.
    At 23%, Link is +9. Dthrow Utilt becomes a true combo.
    At 25%, Link is +10. Dthrow turnaround Utilt becomes a true combo.

    Peach's Nair hits on frame 3 and is her fastest option for preventing Dthrow Utilt.

    ---

    If Peach does not DI, Dthrow Utilt is inescapable at 0%.

    If Peach DIs in front of Link, Dthrow Utilt is inescapable at 0%.

    If Peach DIs all the way behind Link, her Nair will trade with turnaround Utilt at 0%, but her Nair will miss Link if he does regular Utilt (no turnaround) and she will get hit by the back of the Utilt swing.

    If Peach DIs up and behind Link, she will trade with turnaround Utilt, and has the potential to trade with or beat regular Utilt. Depending on when she does her Nair, she may miss Link if he does regular Utilt.

    ex.

    Both characters are frame perfect: Link wins
    Peach is frame perfect, but Link is late by 1 frame: Link wins
    Peach is late by 1 frame, but Link is frame perfect: Peach wins
    Both characters are late by 1 frame: Peach wins
    Peach is frame perfect, but Link is late by 2 frames: Trade
    Peach is late by 1 frame, and Link is late by 2 frames: Link wins
    Peach is late by 2 frames, but Link is frame perfect:
    Peach is late by 2 frames, and Link is late by 1 frame: Trade
    Both characters are late by 2 frames: Peach wins: Trade

    ---

    Most options lose to a regular Utilt. The only one that doesn't is DI up and behind. Utilt may still be useful against this, but because of the risk, using C-stick to option select ASDI down may be useful.

    After 11%, Dthrow turnaround Utilt is inescapable on both full DI behind and DI up and behind, but must be frame perfect until 23%.
     
    #13 SAUS, Feb 15, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2015
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  14. Looticforgothispassword

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    Number crunchers unite!
     
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  15. Bravo_10

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    Amazing post. Shoutouts to the guy who got the frame data. So really, it's always possible to get the u-tilt, but it's absolutely frame tight.
     
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  16. _Chrome

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    It appears to be that way. :)
     
  17. FrankGoldman

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    nice info!
     
  18. Thor

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    So practicing dthrow utilt vs level 9s is actually a really good way to get the timing down [unless they somehow cheat]. Cool to see I was wrong, since it means Link's better off for it!
     
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  19. Asgard

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    I know its a super obscure MU, but do any of you have info against Bowser? I don't play Link but I'd like to know what to look for from Link in the MU because it's extremely difficult for me.
     
  20. _Chrome

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    I don't even know how much I practiced that when I was a kid...
     
  21. Bravo_10

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    I don't know if this thread is the place for that question. Unless of course you're asking what down-throw follow-ups Link gets on Bowser, in which case the answer is virtually nothing because he's so darned heavy. Could probably tech chase a Bowser though, his tech roll is horrible.
     
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  22. SAUS

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    Ya, that is what I was thinking. Against Bowser, I'd see if down-throw tech-chase works and otherwise I'd be looking for up-throw into up-air or something. Overall, it is not a matchup I am worried about, since I don't think Bowser has a good solution to projectiles.

    There is also that surprise factor that can help some characters take out some higher tier characters that are more fragile. Link is rather tanky in that his recovery is very reliable. His neutral game can be very passive allowing him to figure things out a little more. I think a Bowser player will have a tough time against a good Link player.
     
  23. Asgard

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    Yeah, that's what I was looking for, thanks!

    Yeah, I was just looking for what followups to look out for. There's really no way to get past the projectiles, but I'll try to learn as much as I can anyways.
     
    #23 Asgard, Feb 18, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2015
  24. Looticforgothispassword

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    Whenver I play vs bowser I just keep my distance and throw stuff, never rush towards the ledge and be an *******.
     
  25. SAUS

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    I added in a section for Shiek. It's more rough than I thought it would be, but that is the extent of my knowledge for now. Up-throw up-air has been very effective for me, so that's what I've been doing. Let me know what you think and let me know if there is a character you want some throw tips against.
     
  26. RetroGamersGuru

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    Since these numbers are rough, should we wait before using these as a resource for the Sheik MU in the MU thread?
     
  27. SAUS

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    Ya you could hold off on that for now. I think the numbers are correct, I just don't know what is the best thing to do for specific numbers. I pretty much just up-throw and see what happens. When they're higher damage (closer to 100), down-throw up-b usually sets up an edge-guard which is pretty methodical once you get used to it.
     
  28. RetroGamersGuru

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    Hmm, interesting. Going to have to look into it later.
     
  29. Thor

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    Although you're hopefully killing Sheik before then, I think dthrow dair works on her at around 150% -> 160%.

    Throw followups on Samus would be nice. If you could get PerhapsMan to find the frame data on how Samus responds to dthrow [to know if there's ever a percent where dthrow isn't a horrible idea], that'd be sweet. Right now I just uthrow and hope for utilt or uair [and same vs Luigi, though I've landed dthrow dair on him at high percents].
     
  30. SAUS

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    Ya I can ask him about it. I usually just up-throw as well. It doesn't get anything directly (as far as I can tell), but it pretty much always leads to something. Basically, you just stay under them and up-tilt once they've gotten to the point where they can't jump out in time. If they jump earlier, they lose that mix-up and risk a very bad punish.

    Keep them in the air with up-airs and bombs. Bombs are really nice because they are absolutely broken against airborne opponents. They can basically only air dodge or jump (if they have it still) since attacks blow the bomb up on them, so you throw the bomb to force them to do something (or take the bomb). Whether they jump, air dodge, or take the bomb, up-air is the follow-up. Just wait underneath and punish. It resets the situation as well, which is absolutely obnoxious. Repeat until they die or you need to edge guard.
     
  31. shapular

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    Any info on Dr. Mario and Ganondorf?
     
  32. SAUS

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    Doc seems to be up-throw and wait, but you can do things when he is higher damage (around 70 or 80 maybe) with a down throw.

    Ganon is very similar to Shiek, but the heavier weight means you have to not go for the follow up sometimes.
     
  33. RetroGamersGuru

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    I might have the ability to tell more about the ones on Ganondorf, but I need to know how far away he can DI away from Up throw if he can. If it is far away, then it definitely is wait, but if not, Utilt can be a followup or Uair, even though I recommend Utilt until higher percents.
     
  34. The Carpenter

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    I know someone who plays Ganon sometimes. If I find myself in that MU with him I'll experiment various grab options and see what I can find out
     
  35. Looticforgothispassword

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    Against ganon you basically get free comboes from grabs, he can't DI far enough(unless something is very different in NTSC).
     
  36. RetroGamersGuru

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    It's the same in NTSC. Ganon is just too slow to really do anything once a combo starts. A friend of mine wants to figure out what to do as a Ganondorf, but I don't know what to tell him. We tried it in reverse, but he is not a strong Link.
     
  37. Looticforgothispassword

    Looticforgothispassword
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    Smash Ace

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    Tell him to focus on something else than DI then, like spacing and edgeguarding. Ganon can kill you pretty fast if you don't watch out.
     
  38. RetroGamersGuru

    RetroGamersGuru
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    Ok, I've been playing against a friend of mine who plays Icies. I think learning what we can do off of grabs on them will help us immensely. Also, we probably should get the punishes on Puff out of the way since these two are the only other top/high tiers we haven't included.
     
  39. Looticforgothispassword

    Looticforgothispassword
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    I think you can do dthrow to dair on them to kill them and also do dthrow->utilt->uair. I don't really grab either of them ever. Puff can dodge your grab and punish with an easy rest. ICs can punish with a wobble. The risk reward ratio tilts over into too much risk for too little reward. I strongly recommend you to not try to grab in either of these matchups.
     
    #39 Looticforgothispassword, Mar 20, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
    The Carpenter and _Chrome like this.
  40. RetroGamersGuru

    RetroGamersGuru
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    Smash Journeyman

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    Ok, that makes sense. I just didn't know if I was missing something important with grabs on those two. The grabs on Icies can probably applied on Sopo the most though. Also, it wasn't that douchy. I get your point.
     
    #40 RetroGamersGuru, Mar 20, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2015

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