"Gotta' Use 'Em All!" - Lesser used/mentioned moves thread

[Superhacker75mil]

Hey all. I figured that, since most of us by now know the more useful and spammable PT attacks or attack strategies, it'd be nice to have a thread devoted to discussing the application of those moves that seem to go by the wayside for a lot of PT players, newbies or long time acquaintances with the character alike. Whether used by themselves, as setups, or as combo-fuel, I'm sure that we'll at least be able to figure out some sort of use for all the attacks available. I know it's a lot of text to read through, but bear with me...I'm really not as pretentious as all these words make me look. ^_^;;

Oh, and obviously this thread takes it for granted that those within view every Pokémon as a valuable member for a winning PT player...so please, no "S is better than C" or "I is better than S" or what have you.

Ivysaur's neutral-air

I realize that this attack probably isn't at all underused by seasoned PT-mains, and it sees a fair amount of mention here and there, but I wanted to start off the topic with the least-unmentioned move. This'll make sure everyone knows how useful it is.

When talking about Ivysaur's aerials, some people tend to focus on the amazingly useful b-air, the deceptive and strong f-air, and the straightforward, kill-tastic up-air. However, the neutral air should never be ignored, especially when playing an opponent aggressively trying to close the gap with Ivysaur.

Generally, when an opponent is extremely near you (or you're dropping in on them) and seems potentially open, odds are you're going to want to go for that Bullet Seed (who wouldn't?). But because Bullet Seed's opening launcher is blockable, you risk a faster character/player shielding for a nasty close-in counterattack while you're left very open, grab or otherwise. When you're not positive Bullet Seed is safe, neutral-air's got you covered. With an instantaneous start-up after a jump and the potential to eat through a shield, or the ability to DI away and get to the ground again with practically no lag, this is the move of choice for immediate up-close defense.

Neutral-air is the close-in Ivysaur attack that does all sorts of wonders on opponents only expecting the ranged threat or Bullet Seed, because it can also be used aggressively when your spacing game is tight, like beginning a good back-air pressuring game or simply setting up another neutral-air. It's relatively easy to hit with most of the hits, including the knockback hit, and the damage is much better than Squirtle's d-air drill. I find this move especially useful when I'm about to get owned by a Wolf who just rolled behind me and down-smashed, because you safely leave the ground with your counterattack, instead of remaining on the ground with a Bullet Seed attempt and either losing the clash completely, or you both hit and Ivy still gets sent flying (whereas the opponent is merely launched a few feet). An added bonus is that, for me at least, moving backwards with neutral-air seems to keep in the drill better than trying to use the nose end.

For absolute experts with the move, there's also the frames which provide a medium spike...even high percentages can make it back if they've got good vertical recovery, but for those who don't, landing the spike portion is lethal. I believe around the first hit and fourth hit are where the frames are, and I think they're underneath the center towards the nose, but don't quote me on this. In any case, it's extremely extremely difficult to hit with reliably and is really more of a bonus when using the move aggressively off or right on the edge.

Charizard's forward-tilt

This one's another slightly-misclassified member of the list. See, when I started thinking of Charizard moves that went relatively unmentioned or seemed under-used by people here or elsewhere, I found myself at a loss. I've seen a thread here that consisted of Charizard fans under the opinion that he was the most complete Pokémon even, so that might explain why all his moves seem decently appreciated. So I figured then that perhaps I could bring up one or two I feel that, if not under-used, are perhaps misused.

Most forward tilts in the game are either quick attacks that damage well and keep the opponent at bay, or are strong attacks that are slightly faster than the forward smash and used for primarily the same purpose. Charizard's f-tilt is definitely in the latter category, but the lag on both ends of the attack make it unsafe or pointless to use on most opponents...chances are they're more likely to get hit by the more-powerful forward smash if you mindgame it right, since it moves further forward and sort of sweeps from below to above.

Therefore, the f-tilt shouldn't really be considered a standard kill move; you'll just get yourself in trouble. Where it really shines is when attacking a recovering opponent from the edge - it gets further off the stage than the f-smash and will definitely kill at at least 100%. Though Charizard's f-air and b-air are good aerial chase options, and his d-air is a functional spike, sometimes it's safer to go for the kill while above terra-firma against certain characters, and alternating Flamethrower and f-tilt can be a good way to do that in this scenario.


Charizard's down-tilt

Like I said, Charizard's moves all seem to be respected as useful in some regard or another, so this is just to go with the down-tilt theme for tonight.

Charizard's down-tilt is perhaps not as well-used as it could be, but no one's going to deny how useful it is against aggressive approachers, or as a great spacing tool, or as one surprisingly fast KO move at higher percentages. But what has been brought up before that should be brought up again and again so people can understand one of the more important aspects of this move is how easy it is to cancel into something else. It's quick to begin with, but there's still that bit of excess body movement Charizard makes when bringing back his neck into that up-right ready position. Thankfully, there's this thing called IASA frames - "interruptable as soon as" for those curious - and the down-tilt has a significant amount of them at the end, allowing you to follow up with some quick defensive jabs if you missed, or classic Charizard aggression if you connect and send them forward.

As a final note, this move also has a sweet spot, located at Charizard's head where the bite is. Closer to Charizard, it pops foes up a little more vertically, and not as nearly as far. Naturally, either element of the attack can be useful given the situation. Chase for up-smash/up-air/up-tilt punishment at lower percentages (Olimar's d-tilt is also exceptional at this, but only this), and be prepared for either a straight-up KO or some off-stage antics at higher percents.

Basically, the down-tilt is usually a better option for a Charizard near the center of a stage than an f-tilt, given your flexibility on chasing even if you miss the sweet spot.

Ivysaur's down-tilt

Ivysaur is one spaced-out little quadraped. B-airs, f-tilts, f-airs, f-smashes, Razor Leaves...they all serve as excellent tools to keep your opponent at the perfect distance from you, and you should definitely add down-tilts to the list.

EDIT: Originally I stated here that the down-tilt had more forward range than the f-tilt, but this is incorrect. Rather, the d-tilt simply has a solid ranged hitbox that comes out quickly, and is preferable to the f-tilt as well as the f-smash for lack of ending lag and the obvious factor of you wanting to conserve the power of forward smash for killing times. Actually, d-tilt's hit is interesting because close up you'll usually get both the initial hit and the knockback hit, at top range you'll get the second vine for the knockback, but somewhere midway there's a chance you'll only land the first hit, or simply not sweet spot the second vine for knockback. Even so, you usually have enough time and space to keep Ivy safe.

Down-tilt is important in keeping Ivysaur's spacing game varied, and it's actually one of the best moves to lead into Razor Leaves because of the better knockback than the b-air or f-tilt. D-tilt can be key to keeping that spam game alive...but it's true that Ivy will want to close the gap when it's time, so don't abuse the technique like you would the back-air, Ivy's defining move.

Don't forget, vine attacks = disjointed hitbox, which is always awesome.

Squirtle's down-tilt

We all hate projectiles (that aren't Razor Leaf). Poor Charizard has a real tough time getting in close against them, and sometimes they make Ivy need to get closer than Ivy ought to be, limiting her options. Their hands (paws? claws?) are forced.

With Squirtle, you're obviously fast enough to avoid the projectiles and maybe sneak the tail part of the down-air on top of them in retaliation. But that's not your only option for counterattack. See, even as a master ninja, Squirtle hasn't completely forgotten how to be a regular turtle, and can crawl right up to a spam-happy space animal (minus Wolf) or cowardly little angel to deliver what I think is the neatest d-tilt of all.

Obviously, the crawling is mostly situational, but the d-tilt remains useful. It's on par with the f-tilt in range (the f-tilt really has surprisingly good range for such a tiny tail swipe), but sports pretty decent pop-up on the last hit when properly spaced, and when used here and there, opponents will have a difficult time counter-attacking. Squirtle's an aerial beast...what's he doing spinning around on the ground? He's interrupting advances for you with the potential for good damage and knockback, that's what. It's slower than the f-tilt and the up-tilt, but only by a smidge. EDIT: It's also no joke that, as someone mentioned here and I'm beginning to find out for myself, shellshifted d-tilts are the shizzit. It's a lot easier to fully land them out of a shellshift, and it's now one of my favorite moves to do out of it.

EDIT: Now granted, it's not all sunshine and lillypads with this move. Landing it perfectly for all the hits generally requires you to be spot on, since it doesn't exactly suck an opponent in and it actually starts moving back a little before that last hit kicks in. Often times you'll really only deal about 3% damage. Furthermore a good short-hopped aerial can punish you for your moment of fun if you whiff it right in front of an opponent without actually catching them at all. All in all, interrupting is what you're really going to be aiming for...the pop is your bonus for being accurate.

Oh, this is also an excellent move for Squirtle's awesome taunt montage...spin spin spin spin spin = d-tilt, d-air, side-taunt, down taunt, and finish with the up-taunt for the "ta-da" flourish. ^_~

(WARNING: Spin Spin Spin Spin Spin is not recommended for use in most battle situations and can result in users succumbing to combos, unpleasantly high percentages, loss of stock, and in severe cases loss of match. Consult noone for additional advice, and carry on.)
________________________

Up next: Charizard down-smash, Ivy up-tilt, Ivy down-smash, Ivy down-air, Squirtle down-smash, Water Gun, Withdraw (feel free to voice your opinions on these or any of the other lesser used moves whenever you want, of course)

 

[dpunkz]

thanks for the tips!

 

[eMORAY21]

Nice post!

 

[m0dredus]

Vine Whip. Add Vine Whip to the list, Its my main kill move with Ivy, and has many practical uses, it can be combo'ed into, and has an nasty sweet spot with ridiculous range, little start up or end lag, and above average knock back. I never see anyone use it offensively, and its a shame.

 

[Charizard92]

Add Flamethrower, too many people use Rock smash as a racj up damage move instead of Flamethrower and should be used more often.

 

[Retro Gaming]

The only moves I genuinely rarely use are Squirtle's Water Gun, Withdraw, and Waterfall, Ivysaur's Vine Whip and Dair, and Charizard's Fly. Good job at providing some in-sight into these moves, but I'm very excited at the prospect of you mentioning Ivy's Dtilt and Utilt, two moderately useful attacks that should be incorporated into it's play.

 

[NoobCake]

Very nice post, I really don't use that nair as much as I should.
To contribute, I rarely find myself using Squirtle's Water Gun, or his Withdraw. I never find that good opportunities to use Water Gun, and his Withdraw just doesn't seem that useful.
On another note, I also don't use Charizard's nair as much as I should, but I see people use it a lot in vids so I don't think it's a big problem for most people.

 

[AmishTechnology]

You should do a skit on all three's D-Tilts as well. Those seem to be underused too since their F-Tilt seems superior most of the time (well, maybe excluding Charizard. But why use F-Tilt when he has his faster, longer, and safer D-Tilt?).

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Good idea! I love to discuss about unused attacks XD!!! For ivys nair, its a really helpfull move that can be DIed so you can put the presure on the oponnent, and maybe the best option for ivy if you are at a very short range from your oponnent and want a good and quick attack.I personaly dont use it too much, its just that my ivysaur doesnt get very colse to the oponnent frecuently, also, i think it lacks a little priority, but it would make it kinda broken . But i have benn looking for in brawl an aerial move that doesnt change your jumping momentum at all(like pikas nair in melee) and this move may be the answer, so i plain to learn to use it. For charizard, ftilt is all but underused. unless for me , i keep using and using it, that sometimes doesnt kill for stale move negation . I know the uses you mention are valid for the ftilt, but i think it IS a reliable kill move for charizard(if you dont spam it too much). For exmaple, you fight as ivysaur and both you and your opnent have a high percent, you may lose the situation and get kill with ivy , but when charizard appears, a couple or even just one well placed ftilt can finish the job ivy started. And good post, too, you inspired me more to leran how to nair efectively as ivy

 

[Fearmy]

well you would be surprised how much ppl barely use squirtles D smash, great spacing attack, and you can time it so you can use it for Edge guarding, the water goes actually off the ledge and will instantly spray someone flying back

 

[Superhacker75mil]

UtterKaos - I didn't consider Vine Whip to be under-used or mis-used, myself. If it's true that people you see don't use it that often, then I'd definitely at least mention it to them. Vine Whip gives Ivysaur an extra section of the sky to cordon off as no-man's-land, has good KO power in the sweet spot, and is easy to follow up if used at lower percents. However, outside of levels with platforms, I'd wager people are hesitant on using it any more than sparingly, since it's more situational than a lot of Ivy's other moves and still has enough start-up lag to be punishable/predictable...spacing your f-air may seem like a safer attack option. To sum up, Vine Whip shouldn't be a KO highlight...it should be Ivysaur's surprise KO supplement (much like hydroplaning is for Squirtle).

Charizard92 - Flamethrower? Really? C'mon, you're one of the people who talks about Zard all the time, so it's surprising to hear you say people don't appreciate Flamethrower as a damaging approach, defense, or edge-guard. I for one have never seen people not talk about it enthusiastically, especially in the Charizard topics you yourself create. Basically, we all love Flamethrower...why talk about it more?

Fearmy - We'll definitely debate more over Squirtle's down smash after I bring up the next moves I was planning on going over, since I would agree that this move is one of the absolute least used of all of them for most people. My own attempts at application in-match have produced mostly disappointing results, but when I come back to it I'll have a fresher opinion after a lot more training utilizing it for traps as either the bait or the switch, and that edge-guarding technique you mentioned.

UPDATE POSTED AS FIRST POST EDIT - "DOWN TILTS"

___________________________________

On another note, just so everyone knows, I definitely don't think I'm the best PT player here, not at all. The "Don't Work" video showed me more carefully considered approaching and attack sequences than I usually showcase, and I've read a number of very competent posts here on this board from other users discussing things like general strategy, Poké-specific approaches, and I'm also still working on my Squirtle ninja-mindgame movement to compensate for his otherwise predictable aerial abuse. But overall I felt like I've made enough strides improving my technique, speed, adaptability, and overall character understanding to discuss or lead a discussion based on neglected/misused attacks, and I like to type wordy, "all thoughts considered" posts, so here we are.

Unfortunately for me, a formal rival of mine, a Yoshi fanatic who may well be the leading Yoshi expert on the board, continues to go and duke it out with the absolute finest brandnames in the NJ/NY area, improving every aspect of his game with every sweet victory and what's likely to be the multitude of certain, yet honorable defeats. I wish I could say that I still get to play him or join him on his adventures, but things didn't turn out well in a number of ways (and I'm sorry for it). Instead, I'm stuck only occasionally playing other good friends of mine who unfortunately don't have the same experience as him or even me (my lickings and lessons from high-level players are many), even if they've both gotten much better. For any of you NJ Pokémon Trainers battling in area tournaments against guys like Keitaro, ROT8, YES!, ATMSK, Inui, Ether, dmbrandon, Spamerer, and even the appearances of M2K, you're probably accustomed to seeing the pink Yoshi of PRiDE kickin' around out there. Don't underestimate it, and try and give a good showing for all us other trainers.

As for what I can pass on about Yoshi after multiple punishings? Well, Yoshi rushdowns on Charizard are a ***** to deal with. Back air, headbutt, kick kick, headbutt, kick kick, grab, chew, throw, smash...blech, it sucks. Try to never have 'Zard out against Yoshi, but if you're forced to, you'll have to play the wrong game for the big guy just to try and survive. Up-smashes are still your friend to punish even slightly botched approaches, but you're going to have to be more stationary than you're used to to be really effective, so don't forget your down-tilts. Jab combo works, but lacks the initial range. KO's will initially come more from mind-gamed Rock Smashes and back-airs than anything else, except for the still-reliable down-throw, which if it doesn't do the job alone can always be coupled with good gimping (no staying on the ledge...you really need to go for the gimp). Be careful about being too defensive...eggs hurt. Oh, and throw out some down-smashes when you can. Since a grounded Yoshi is going to be more dangerous to Charizard than any other way, you can use that ridiculously deceptive range on the quake to shake up that poor excuse for a dragon, possibly for that KO you'll so desperately crave.

Oh, you know how it's good to be unpredictable when moving in with Squirtle? That's ****ED crucial against a Yoshi, because Yoshi has a chain grab-release on our favorite little ninja that stops him cold and piles on the damage. This can hinder Squirtle significantly in what's otherwise the best Poké-matchup against Yoshi. Keep your b-airs going for ranged damage, your n-airs, f-tilts, and u-tilts ready for defense (basic stuff), and edge-guard carefully against the off-edge egg-toss/second jump tactics. D-tilt is still good for unpredictable defense, but it's the slowest option and you're likely to eat Yoshi's tail attacks instead. Avoid d-air entirely, it's too risky...Yoshi's up-air is freaking amazing, and is one of his best kill moves, if not the best.

With Ivy, you might think you're in for a camp-off at the beginning, but don't be fooled. Eggs are a little bit more versatile than Razor Leaf due to their directional manipulation and explosion radius, and even though you're going to get some hits in too, chances are Yoshi will have switched games and gotten in close before you've altered your mindset since he's quicker on the rushdown. Rush in carefully and begin b-airs immediately to setup f-tilts and Bullet Seeds. I find that Yoshi is Bullet Seed fodder because he's such an aggressive character, but that doesn't make killing him easier so much as possible. D-tilts are also great to keep the rush-down at bay (be sure to follow up with a Razor Leaf + approach). If you're using neutral-air for emergency in-close defense, make sure all the hits connect from the start, otherwise you'll eat boot from Yoshi's own n-air, a much higher-priority one. To ensure this, hit the n-air with Yoshi behind you, at a full hop, not a short one. Spaced f-airs are great for kills since none of Yoshi's aerials, even the back-air, really compete on the range, and the vines count for a disjointed hitbox, so there you go. As always, f-smash is fantastic, and nothing Yoshi has really negates its usefulness, so feel free. Finally, you can try an up-air if you've managed to dodge through Yoshi's up-air...but don't forget his is much quicker and not at all laggy, so he'll do it again if he pulls the same stunt on you. Up-smash and up-tilt are pretty moot since Yoshi's got no reason to be above anyone , let alone Ivysaur, and up-tilt's not really quick enough against a standing Yoshi for combo purposes.

 

[Hydde]

From all the moves of that list...the only one i admit i rarely use, is the ivy Nair...

but i definitelylove to use Ivy dtilt and xard dtilt..... they are extremely useful!!.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Wow ,looks like your friend is very good with yoshi.Im sorry i cant give you advice because i have never played against a good yoshi player(neither a bad one XD), i even believed yoshi was a bad character in brawl because i have seen people complaining about some nerfs on the boards. To apport to the thread, i propose to talk about squirtles special moves, because i feel those are the mos unrated in the PT arsenal.
Watergun is a usefull but situational move. There are two vertinos of it:the charged and the uncharged.The uncharged version consist of squirtle throwing a little water on a close range in front of him.It is a multhit attack, so the damage it inflicts varies acording ti the situation, but normalyy its around 12%, it has nice priority, minimal knockback and a little lag afterwards, but is a very good surprise attack that your oponnent wont be specting, and the damage it inflicts is kinda good.The charge of watergun is fast, and doenst affect your momentum in the air, so its kinda easy to charge it up.The charged version doesn not damage, just pushes your oponents some distance, but it has godd horizontal range and can screw your oponents strategy or confuse him because of the momentum that is applied to them, but chances are that it wont happen, but its a good move for gimping recoveries, specially for characters like ness or link.

 

[Adriel]

For Squirtle, up-b, as an attack.

By the wai, this is a great thread idea.

 

[Charizard92]

UtterKaos

Charizard92 - Flamethrower? Really? C'mon, you're one of the people who talks about Zard all the time, so it's surprising to hear you say people don't appreciate Flamethrower as a damaging approach, defense, or edge-guard. I for one have never seen people not talk about it enthusiastically, especially in the Charizard topics you yourself create. Basically, we all love Flamethrower...why talk about it more?

[

Which one do you prefer, Rock smash or Flamethrower as a damage giving move? Also, check outside this area, there are non-Charizard related topics. And is it bad to be a fan of Charizard?

 

[NoobCake]

Great update, I hope this thread stays alive!

 

[Retro Gaming]

I tend to use Ivysaur's Dtilt if my opponent shields a Ftilt, or if I want to put them in the air.

Squirtle's Dtilt shield pokes often for me. I liek the pop-up from it, as well.

Charizard's Dtilt is a great move. I have no more to say than what you already did. And yes, the bite is the sweet-spot. <3

 

[Ryos4]

I actually use all of these moves regularly, the moves i tend to use the lease out of all would be.

Ivy's Dsmash, seems too weak and too slow to really see all that useful, maybe for comboing idk. When ever i try to use it i get hit.

Squirtles's Fsmash, while it is fairly strong it seems rather easy to dodge, and if i wanted to kill i might as well use the D throw.

Charizard, hmm if anymove that i barly use it would be rock smash. While it is nice if it hits, for me it constantly leaves me open and half the time when i attempt it i get interupted before he can smash it so the rock just falls.

 

[Criosphere]

I find that the downsmashes go without being used, for the same reasons as the dtilts. There are just other attacks that seem to replace them quite easily. Like, why would you dsmach with squirtle when you can upsmash?

 

[Adriel]

I find that the downsmashes go without being used, for the same reasons as the dtilts. There are just other attacks that seem to replace them quite easily. Like, why would you dsmach with squirtle when you can upsmash?

Try spamming up-smash in training mode with Squirtle. Then try it with down-smash.

 

[Rauzaruke]

Oh my god. I had no idea spin spin spin spin spin could be such a good mind game tool. INCORPORATING INTO GAME STARTING NOW.

Actually, I surprised people don't use the d-tilts more often. Zard and Ivy both have unexpected range while Squirts is just plain annoying to get hit with. Plus I think you forgot to add that you can shell shift into the D-tilt which makes it even more sneaky. However, it might be seldom used since most people prefer to keep their Squirts in the air. Great post.

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

I have to agree about Ivy's nair, I've been plugging it since I wrote that mini-guide on Ivysaur way back when Pit was broken and James Dean was still alive. The only bad thing about it is the low priority, which makes you shy away from it against opponents with high priority nairs (Luigi, Yoshi, MK, G&W, Peach, etc.).

I'd like to touch up on Charizard's nair. I don't watch many PT videos, mainly because I haven't heard about any PT player placing well in tournaments, so I don't really know how to assess this move's usage. However, based on talk, it seems ignored somehow. It's a great multi-purpose attack, with arguably the largest and most complete hitbox of any aerial in the game, that lasts the entire SH and can be easily auto canceled. It reaches above platforms, is a decent approach option (though not better than bair), and is safer edgeguard than fair.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Yay charizard's Nair should be omre used, i think you are right in the "is largest hitbox aerial in the game" (althought i think that it travels with charizards tail, so the entire hitbox is not all charizards body in all the duration of the attack, but im not sure of that)and all that otter things you said, it stills has the tail sweetspot (right? i think i burned someone with it the other day). But i think we are going too far, i mean, we are talking about a lot of moves, how about making a day for a move, or a week for a specific pokemon? That would give this thread more order.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I'd like to touch up on Charizard's nair. I don't watch many PT videos, mainly because I haven't heard about any PT player placing well in tournaments, so I don't really know how to assess this move's usage. However, based on talk, it seems ignored somehow. It's a great multi-purpose attack, with arguably the largest and most complete hitbox of any aerial in the game, that lasts the entire SH and can be easily auto canceled. It reaches above platforms, is a decent approach option (though not better than bair), and is safer edgeguard than fair.

In addition, it works wonders at baiting attacks, since people will stop just short of your hitbox, easily within Charizard's jab range. You can follow that up as you see fit. Retreating Nairs work well, although Rock Smash is also a great choice, so it's use is limited. Because of the way it moves, it's not a reliable kill move, even with sweet-spot. The sweet-spot isn't particularly strong (Compared to Bair sweet-spot).