• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Gotta Keep 'em separated! Should they have stayed?

Should they have stayed with one fighter (Zelda and sheik) or is this good?

  • Keep 'em separated

    Votes: 102 86.4%
  • Stick together

    Votes: 16 13.6%

  • Total voters
    118

Floor

Floor | Defiant of Destiny
Joined
Feb 17, 2014
Messages
701
Location
DFW, Texas
NNID
SerPete
3DS FC
1736-3913-7675
When I saw the update, I was a bit irked. This applies to Sheik and Zero Suit Samus: Those were two roster spaces that are being held by characters who (in my opinion) worked fine as they were, not taking up room. Whenever I played Zelda, I used her and not shiek, but from viewing my friends, I may stand alone. Everyone seems to have used shiek and shiek alone.
Now that Sheik is a stand alone character, will Zelda be used? This is where Nintendo will have to do some serious revamping of the move set to make her satisfying. Elsewise, I don't think she will be used.
What are your thoughts?
 

Tristan_win

Not dead.
Joined
Aug 7, 2006
Messages
3,845
Location
Currently Japan
No Sheik and Zelda should of not stayed together as the developers had demonstrated twice that they couldn't make a good duo character. In melee they made Sheik so good that beyond recovery Zelda was useless in every match, in brawl they nerf sheik and buff Zelda but failed to buff Zelda enough and didn't give them a reliable means to switch between the two. The fact that transformation time was Wii dependent and could be effected by what was happening in match like stage transformation it made switching between the two very dangerous or meant you had to allow your opponent to recover from getting knocked off stage for free.

Will Zelda continue to be used? Hmmm, I'm going to say yes because there are people who used Zelda just because they like Zelda... In fact due to their separate Zelda will be better then ever because the developers now know they have to fill in the holes that breaking the two a part will make. Because Zelda will be a stronger pick more people will play her because more people will be able to win with her
 
Last edited:

Katy Parry

The Only Zelda in Indiana
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
3,328
Location
Indianapolis, IN
NNID
justysuxx
It just shows the developers were lazy. Project M is a perfect example of MUCH LESS resources made avaliable and they were able to fix the issues. Namco Bandai most likely suggested this, as they have no experience with transformation characters.

This is completely and utterly stupid IMO.

They could have kept all of these changes with mapping the transformation to a taunt. Simple, easy, and yet, of course not.

I am very excited for the new moves they received because of the change; but Sheik and Zelda BELONG together. That's how they have always been, and I can't believe that he would change one of the most interesting video game moves ever.
 

Malion

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 6, 2013
Messages
649
I like the split unlike pkmn trainer you didnt he to switch between them so most just stuck with one or the other. I always used zelda but barely sheik and that waz fine because they were essentially one character. This split will force me to get gud with both of them. Plus a down b move fo both! win-win
 

Katy Parry

The Only Zelda in Indiana
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
3,328
Location
Indianapolis, IN
NNID
justysuxx
I like the split unlike pkmn trainer you didnt he to switch between them so most just stuck with one or the other. I always used zelda but barely sheik and that waz fine because they were essentially one character. This split will force me to get gud with both of them. Plus a down b move fo both! win-win
Win LOSE. The whole point of Zelda's uniqueness was access to her alter ego. The idea behind it was so she could adapt to the best situation. Sheik racks up the damage, then Zelda knocks them out. I don't want to only have access to one character during a match. I'm not used to it, and several other players aren't, either. That was what drew me to Zelda's character.

If she is insanely buffed because of the separation, then I'm all for it. But its just Brawl Zelda with a new special, I'm going to freak out. I should have known when Sakurai said "not every character will return" he was trolling and meant it in the most evil way possible.
 

DMurr

The Radiant Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
2,461
Location
ATL
NNID
dmurray9
I hope that they keep them on the same icon in the roster selection since they are the same character.. but I doubt they will. It just seems strange that you can have them separate now. Sheik IS Zelda.. As much as I love the character, I don't see a reason for her taking a spot on the roster without being tied into Zelda.

Same with Zero Suit Samus, even though I mained her in Brawl and absolutely hated having to switch between.

Two of my most wanted characters and it seems weird to have them the way they are. :facepalm:
 

Floor

Floor | Defiant of Destiny
Joined
Feb 17, 2014
Messages
701
Location
DFW, Texas
NNID
SerPete
3DS FC
1736-3913-7675
There are now 29 spots taken up. The obvious choices are gone, like mario and llink. On top of that, only 6 or 7 are newcomers. (Depending if you want to count Charizard as new, though officaly he is not). The remaining spots are probaly newcomers(if we want a neat ratio of newcomers and veterans). (assuming a respectable 40 character roster, due to the 3DS's limitations).
Just take a moment to think about the size of the roster, and think about the cuts. Do we NEED these spots for the separations? If all goes accoridngly, no one's "wants" will even come close to making it. Let's just hope the roster will exceed 40:sheilda:
 

pupNapoleon

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
8,952
Location
Miami, NYC
NNID
NapoleonPlays
3DS FC
5129-1683-5306
Switch FC
SW 3124 9647 8311
For the greater scheme, this is necessary. Switching characters was a gimmick that kept those characters from being see as respectable, which hurt the series and is one of many reasons competitive play was sometimes denied. This change will bring SSB to a higher level, and with that, more people will buy Wii Us. Simple.
 

ToothiestAura

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
2,077
3DS FC
4527-8092-0589
Without the change they both lose some uniqueness. However, the switch was not quick enough to capitalize on and people generally play either or. I changed mid battle on occasion, but that's me. Taunt changing makes more sense to me than ditching it all together. That can be added still, I suppose.
 

Xigger

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
1,117
Location
California
It just shows the developers were lazy. Project M is a perfect example of MUCH LESS resources made avaliable and they were able to fix the issues. Namco Bandai most likely suggested this, as they have no experience with transformation characters.

This is completely and utterly stupid IMO.

They could have kept all of these changes with mapping the transformation to a taunt. Simple, easy, and yet, of course not.

I am very excited for the new moves they received because of the change; but Sheik and Zelda BELONG together. That's how they have always been, and I can't believe that he would change one of the most interesting video game moves ever.
Now, now. The separation was more likely to technical reasons for the 3DS than anything else, rather than a developer choice. I doubt Sakurai's Brawl team would have made transformations work on the 3DS either.

You should have heard the speculation when the community started talking about transformation characters on the 3DS. We made several sensible, reasonable claims that ended up being true. Zelda/Sheik, Samus/ZSS, Pokemon Trainer, Olimar only having 3 Pikmin, a lot of us were actually expecting this.
 

pupNapoleon

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
8,952
Location
Miami, NYC
NNID
NapoleonPlays
3DS FC
5129-1683-5306
Switch FC
SW 3124 9647 8311
I think technological limits are not anywhere in the cards for why this happened.
There was no balance in switched characters. They were considered different character slots entirely.

This isnt fewer spots on the roster, it isnt to nerf the game, it only helps it.
 

Xigger

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
1,117
Location
California
I think technological limits are not anywhere in the cards for why this happened.
There was no balance in switched characters. They were considered different character slots entirely.

This isnt fewer spots on the roster, it isnt to nerf the game, it only helps it.
I have to agree that it does stabilize balance, and players will stop comparing Zelda to Sheik and finally treat them as separate characters.

But for the sake of clarity, and also because the Pokemon and Assist Trophies moving at 30fps are confirmed to be for smooth 3DS gameplay, there's no reason to say that it was a pure design choice.

The technical limits did push a lot of decisions in this game, and it's being made evident with Pokemon, Assist Trophies, Pikmin reduction, Charizard, and transformation removals. But only one was mentioned as a technical aspect.
 

pupNapoleon

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
8,952
Location
Miami, NYC
NNID
NapoleonPlays
3DS FC
5129-1683-5306
Switch FC
SW 3124 9647 8311
@ Xigger Xigger

As an artist, I just want to state that walls and boundaries often push one to creative, much more plausible solutions. All limits push the mind to new, fun ideas.
Limits inspire.
 
Last edited:

Overtaken

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
363
Location
Raleigh, NC
Technically this shouldn't be tantamount to less characters on the roster, as it doesn't take up any more or less disc space, but from a design point of view, we know that simply separating them and giving them their own boxes on the character selection screen does mean less newcomers, and more vets being cut.
 

Hong

The Strongest
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
23,550
Put lore aside, and realize the two characters had absolutely zero synergy. The concept they had with designing Sheik in Melee never came to fruition.

Sheik doesn't need Zelda to get kills.
Zelda, balance aside, doesn't need Sheik to rack up damage.

And for the VAST MINORITY who would EVER transform, it is certainly not fair to take away one of my potential specials.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
2,440
Location
Niigata, Japan
NNID
BahamurShin
3DS FC
3668-9945-1996
I have to say, I love characters that can have 2 movesets in one, since being able to switch back and forth to keep your opponents on edge has always intrigued me.
When this was announced, I was a bit sad about it but I always have an open mind when it comes to my video games.
They probably weren't able to make a smooth transformation sequence which is why they did that, I remember that in Melee it was a fast transition but in Brawl it took time due to the way the system handled the disc so I assume that they encountered the same issue in the 3DS version and perhaps in the Wii U one as well, which is why they did what they had to for the sake of efficiency.
Frankly, even if they are separate, if this improves both characters somehow then I'm on board with it.
 

Wii Twerk Trainer

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Messages
751
Location
Lake elsinore
NNID
Wiifitgaypride69
I really don't know why people are complaing about this. Removing transformations was the best thing sakurai has ever done!i love it!

Now Zelda and Shiek have a shot of being viable and not garbage like they were in brawl. Well Shiek is good but she had little to no kill power. Zelda just sucked period.

That grenade and Ninjitsu jump will help Shiek so much and that phantom knight will make Zelda so much better
 

Critzilean

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
215
Location
Maryland/DC
NNID
Critzilean
3DS FC
1693-2152-0414
Switch FC
SW-2556-2425-6120
Well on the bright side, OoT will no longer be spoiled for the morons people who never played it
 

pupNapoleon

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
8,952
Location
Miami, NYC
NNID
NapoleonPlays
3DS FC
5129-1683-5306
Switch FC
SW 3124 9647 8311
Well on the bright side, OoT will no longer be spoiled for the morons people who never played it
Yes, everyone can go back to thinking Sheik is a boy.
 
Last edited:

Malion

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 6, 2013
Messages
649
Yes, everyone can go back to thinking Sheik is a boy.
Well sheik looked feminine in brawl but masuline here. Maybe they've made sheik a man now? Like magical trans.

Also Tetra clone of sheik anyone? She already has bombs!
 

The Real Gamer

Smash Hero
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
9,166
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
3DS FC
3437-3797-6559
A lot of people don't seem to realize that Zelda will most likely be buffed to compensate for the lack of Sheik.

In addition to that the vast majority of Sheik mains never even touched Zelda other than the rare recovery situation in Melee.

It's a win, win for everyone IMO.
 

PlayerOneTyler

Sr. Community Manager, Smashboards Editor / Social
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
1,158
Location
Los Angeles, CA
I'm glad Zelda and Sheik are separated, but if they were gonna do that, I wish they would have just taken Sheik out and replaced her with Impa. Impa is more important. /diddykong
 

Exia 00

Smash Champion
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
2,024
Location
Toronto, Ontario
A change for the better.

100% sure it happened because of 3DS RAM issues (just like every other transformation).

Fighting games are binary, one form would be better than the other. It would not be healthy to have an answer to everything.
 

pupNapoleon

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
8,952
Location
Miami, NYC
NNID
NapoleonPlays
3DS FC
5129-1683-5306
Switch FC
SW 3124 9647 8311
A change for the better.

100% sure it happened because of 3DS RAM issues (just like every other transformation).

Fighting games are binary, one form would be better than the other. It would not be healthy to have an answer to everything.

No. Just, no.

This game clearly is focused much more heavily on competition, half the direct proved that (for glory, ranking system, final destinations of all stages)
Transformations just werent being balanced well... at all. At all at all.
 

Takehiko

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
272
NNID
FoldedMachi
It just shows the developers were lazy. Project M is a perfect example of MUCH LESS resources made avaliable and they were able to fix the issues. Namco Bandai most likely suggested this, as they have no experience with transformation characters.

This is completely and utterly stupid IMO.

They could have kept all of these changes with mapping the transformation to a taunt. Simple, easy, and yet, of course not.

I am very excited for the new moves they received because of the change; but Sheik and Zelda BELONG together. That's how they have always been, and I can't believe that he would change one of the most interesting video game moves ever.
Namco has experience with transformations characters considering in Tekken games you have Kazuya & Jin transforming into their own devil forms and expanding their games. They they might have suggested that he make characters separate because one character would see so much fuller with many options, but then the other side would be lacking. They might have suggested the change to because in Tourney atmospheres Smash balls wouldn't be used, so Samus wouldn't have that transforming ability that Sheik/ Zelda had ,so she's not truly a transformation character. On there there hand, they probably noticed that the play-styles of the players would favor one side of transformation and felt that it was best to just give the character their own slot.
 

Katy Parry

The Only Zelda in Indiana
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
3,328
Location
Indianapolis, IN
NNID
justysuxx
Namco has experience with transformations characters considering in Tekken games you have Kazuya & Jin transforming into their own devil forms and expanding their games. They they might have suggested that he make characters separate because one character would see so much fuller with many options, but then the other side would be lacking. They might have suggested the change to because in Tourney atmospheres Smash balls wouldn't be used, so Samus wouldn't have that transforming ability that Sheik/ Zelda had ,so she's not truly a transformation character. On there there hand, they probably noticed that the play-styles of the players would favor one side of transformation and felt that it was best to just give the character their own slot.
Players are easily able to change into Zamus during a fight - up down up in quick succession is easy to pull off, particularly when someone is star ko'd.

They were just interesting mechanics to each player, and I mean, when you went into a fight, at least competitively, if you were going against Zelda, you knew you had the possibility of fighting Sheik. Same with Samus. Except you knew if she changed to Zamus, you would fight her for the rest of the fight.

I think its complete bogus that final smashes still have transformations. Maybe Zelda's Final smash will allow her to have access to Sheik for a small amount of time.

Probably a 0.00019% change of that happening.

I'm still really hurt by the change. But it doesn't matter; I have to get used to it.
 

Katy Parry

The Only Zelda in Indiana
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
3,328
Location
Indianapolis, IN
NNID
justysuxx
I really don't know why people are complaing about this. Removing transformations was the best thing sakurai has ever done!i love it!

Now Zelda and Shiek have a shot of being viable and not garbage like they were in brawl. Well Shiek is good but she had little to no kill power. Zelda just sucked period.

That grenade and Ninjitsu jump will help Shiek so much and that phantom knight will make Zelda so much better
How does Phantom Slash make her better? If anything, if a projectile is fired at her, her best option is to reflect it with Nayru's Love.
 

pupNapoleon

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
8,952
Location
Miami, NYC
NNID
NapoleonPlays
3DS FC
5129-1683-5306
Switch FC
SW 3124 9647 8311
How does Phantom Slash make her better? If anything, if a projectile is fired at her, her best option is to reflect it with Nayru's Love.
Good thing every move she makes is deflecting a projectile... not cancelling others attacks with her own attack priority....
 

Erimir

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 24, 2001
Messages
1,732
Location
DC
3DS FC
3823-8583-9137
I like the change. More specials, better balance.

Yes, they could've mapped the transformation to a taunt... but there are some issues that would still remain, as seen below.

Transformation characters are inherently hard to balance, because they give you more options. Making it too easy to transform would make them very good as you'd switch quickly to edgeguard with the better one for that, switch quickly for KO power, etc. They'd have to make them both worse, or even out their abilities in order to prevent them from being broken. But the two of them are supposed to play so differently that this would be hard to do. It would be possible, and basically if they went the high flexibility route (very quick transformation) they'd have to make them both just ok on their own, and necessitate that competitive players master both. Some people might like that, but most players evidently don't.

On the other hand, if the transformation is too time consuming to do (as it is in Brawl and Melee), then you can only switch while your opponent has been knocked far away or KO'd, you can't do it on the fly to gain advantage since you'll be too vulnerable. In this case, people will tend to never transform and thus you might as well make them separate characters.

On the whole, as seen in both Melee and Brawl, the combination of Zelda and Sheik barely does any better competitively than Zelda or Sheik alone (Sheik alone, since she's better in both games, as it turns out). The flexibility basically gains you nothing because it's too time consuming to switch.

Making them separate means they get new moves and they can each be balanced on their own. I'm way more excited for both Zelda and Sheik than I was before, because they both look like they'll have all sorts of new aspects to playing as them.
 

Katy Parry

The Only Zelda in Indiana
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
3,328
Location
Indianapolis, IN
NNID
justysuxx
Good thing every move she makes is deflecting a projectile... not cancelling others attacks with her own attack priority....
Well see, that's what I'm really HOPING for. If Zelda spent longer casting the spell and it absorbed the attack/projectitle at the last possible second, Zelda might be able to follow up.



She has plenty of time to at least follow up with Din's Fire here.

Zelda could also bait this attack to be reflected. That's a win Win situation. Din's Fire, if reflected, just changed who it hurt, not where it went--it stayed put.

But with this, if Fox had reflected it, or anyone else, she has enough time it seems to pop Nayru's Love.

Since Nayru's love amplifies damage it reflects, this might be a smart bait.
 

Wii Twerk Trainer

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Messages
751
Location
Lake elsinore
NNID
Wiifitgaypride69
How does Phantom Slash make her better? If anything, if a projectile is fired at her, her best option is to reflect it with Nayru's Love.
I hope your joking. Having another projectile one that can be used offensively or defensively is a blessing to Zelda. A smart player will use it when the time is right.

And also why would I use phantom slash to avoid a projectile when I could easily spot dodge it or block it?

Even if used Nauru's love a smart opponent would just block it anyways.
 
Last edited:

Ryu Myuutsu

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
2,440
Location
Niigata, Japan
NNID
BahamurShin
3DS FC
3668-9945-1996
And who says that you use the Phantom Slash ONLY to block a projectiles? You can use it block incoming enemies and deal them damage.
 

Katy Parry

The Only Zelda in Indiana
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
3,328
Location
Indianapolis, IN
NNID
justysuxx
And who says that you use the Phantom Slash ONLY to block a projectiles? You can use it block incoming enemies and deal them damage.
We don't know this. It was only show blocking a projectile. I do assume it blocks attacks but think:

If Fox approaches with a sex kick, which has a long hitbox, we dont know if completely negates the sex kick, leaving Zelda invulnerable until he lands/the move is over, or if it blocks the first part of the hitbox, but will still hit Zelda with the weaker part of the hitbox.

I'm talking about mechanics.

And yes, I'd rather at least me, reflect a majority of projectiles for the instant protection/damage amp.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
2,440
Location
Niigata, Japan
NNID
BahamurShin
3DS FC
3668-9945-1996
Exactly, we don't know. Which is why assuming that only blocks projectiles is too preposterous. Besides, the move is used to attack enemies as well, it has to have some priority.
 

Katy Parry

The Only Zelda in Indiana
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
3,328
Location
Indianapolis, IN
NNID
justysuxx
Exactly, we don't know. Which is why assuming that only blocks projectiles is too preposterous. Besides, the move is used to attack enemies as well, it has to have some priority.
I never said it only blocks projectiles, or assumed that.

I understand the move is an attack. I'm guessing the Phantom maybe has a 'limit' of what it can it withstand. Like, a jab won't kill it, but a fully charged Giant Punch would.
 

Awaji66

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Messages
76
While being able to transform is more unique. I think them being separated is overall better. They can now focus on each one alone, instead of trying to find a balance between them. Zelda's most likely going receive some buffs and Sheik ,well it's Sheik,
 
Last edited:

pupNapoleon

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
8,952
Location
Miami, NYC
NNID
NapoleonPlays
3DS FC
5129-1683-5306
Switch FC
SW 3124 9647 8311
There are now 29 spots taken up. The obvious choices are gone, like mario and llink. On top of that, only 6 or 7 are newcomers. (Depending if you want to count Charizard as new, though officaly he is not). The remaining spots are probaly newcomers(if we want a neat ratio of newcomers and veterans). (assuming a respectable 40 character roster, due to the 3DS's limitations).
Just take a moment to think about the size of the roster, and think about the cuts. Do we NEED these spots for the separations? If all goes accoridngly, no one's "wants" will even come close to making it. Let's just hope the roster will exceed 40:sheilda:
So... the 3DS has limitations on roster spaces, nothing to do with how much programming is into the game? Not how many movesets, just the roster count?
If anything, the characters not switching free up a lot of space because it will not have to think.
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
25,969
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
I'm glad Zelda and Sheik are separated, but if they were gonna do that, I wish they would have just taken Sheik out and replaced her with Impa. Impa is more important. /diddykong
:diddy:
 

Ryu Myuutsu

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
2,440
Location
Niigata, Japan
NNID
BahamurShin
3DS FC
3668-9945-1996
Not all obvious choices are gone yet; Ganondorf, Falco, Wario, Ness, Cpt. Falcon, etc. are yet to be confirmed.
 
Top Bottom